INTO THE DEEP (COMPLETE - Mafia Win !!)

[Metsfanmax]

jfm's claim is consistent with what he said on D1, and I find Seraph Knight to be a role that a person is unlikely to come up with as a fake claim. I also think it's incredibly unlikely to be a scum role, it's super over powered to be able to permanently protect one of your scum buddies (or potentially yourself). So I'm not joining the jfm wagon. I also concur with whoever said that this is not likely to be a standard mafia setup: it doesn't seem implausible to me that there's both a standard town doc and a Seraph Knight. It doesn't necessarily seem likely either, but it's plausible enough that I have strong reservations about voting jfm.

My ability is "prevent all attacks against your target"

I have been trying to tell yous i am town and i just get the you must be scum for giving out info on yourself.My ability is weak at the beginning of the game as i have a less than 7% chance of picking the scums target unless i make myself the target and then they waste thier night.

I have no choice now but to target myself every night but atleast town now knows that i can only be lynched.Also note attacks is plural so you can count on vigilantes in this game.

[Pikanchion]

Also I was thinking about it and I don't see why tobi would have a healer mentioned in his role pm given the role he claimed. Am I missing something?

Nope, and I've brought up doubts about this part of Tobikera's claim multiple times already. The first was ignored, and Tobikera has not posted since the second (it has been almost 96 hours at this point since Tobikera's last post).

[Tobikera]

Also I was thinking about it and I don't see why tobi would have a healer mentioned in his role pm given the role he claimed. Am I missing something?

Quite simple really. The mod said that if my next target prey is a healer, I become one for one night in the future. So, if my prey is a food fish, I get to eat, and if my prey is a healer, I get to heal. That's all I know.

[Ragian]

@Ragoo - Hey Mr "you didn't reply to something strike said so I am voting you!" but you did not reply to my reply to your reply for not replying to strike... do you have an opinion on that?

I was told that I totally misunderstood what SW was saying, so I tucked it back in. What have I missed?

unvote

I'm with mets on this one. I'm not voting jmf. Not at this stage. I don't think everyone voting him is scum either, but there's something about Skoffin that's rubbing me the wrong way along the lines of the stuff that others have brought.

Maybe knowing how you dodged an attack would sort something out, Skoff-cough?

[strike wolf]

unvote for now. I'm not wholly convinced but I like the case on Tobi as well and being a bit upset with JFM's style of play, it's probably better to go with a target I'm not conflating emotion with logic on (and the fact that I'm getting pissed off is probably a sign that at least part of me wants to believe him). Not really convinced that Blacky's comment was anything more than poor wording rather than a Freudian slip. Can I just vent and say that assuming JFM is telling the truth, this is why you shouldn't claim haphazardly and then stay quiet while others are clearly misunderstanding your role. The fact that he stayed quiet and didn't correct people as they called him doctor or assumed he could change his target, contradictory to what his role is, is still a pretty decent scum slip in my opinion.

That said, I agree with others that Tobi knowing about a healer seems fishy and his excuse that his night 2 action seems kinda oddly specific. It's possible he is mafia and knows there is a healer because he's a role cop and he investigated (him knowing that Mets was redirected could just be because mafia has a redirector and him stating that there is a healer was a way to let his scumbuddies know the result of his action in case he got lynched) or possibly more likely he knows there is a healer because he knows about the poisoner. Also Tobi seems like a pretty smart person and I believe he even stated that he was a retired professor. This just makes his glaring misuse of Modus Ponens logic against Mets that much more glaring to me.

Vote Tobi

I'll probably reconsider JFM when I have a clearer head about him. I'm also interested in ZaBeast, he struck me as town day 1 but he's come across more quiet and opportunistic as the game has continued. Skoffi n kinda strikes me as third party, just saying.

To answer a question, yes I can heal poisonings as well as regular kills and if you look back you'll even see I low key brought up the idea of a poisoner as "unlikely" day 1. That said, i have not decided who I'm going to target tonight.

[Tobikera]

I'm confused about the votes on me. I am the only person with a verified claim. I said in D2 that I mis-directed Metsfanmax, and AFTER THAT, he confirmed he was mis-directed. Scum don't usually mis-direct people, their job is to wipe Townies to the point where they are equivalent in number to Town. NO ONE else here has claimed and had their claim confirmed except me. Whether you believe, as I do, that the only reported action that explains my mis-direction or not is blacky getting poisoned, at least I have town creds from my verified claim. If not, then you are all playing a different game of mafia than my several years of experience. When I played regularly with The New Crusade (pre-DBD), Metsfanmax and/or blacky would have been soon taken to L-2 to get their claims. But, not here. You seem to want to create scum by insinuation, not proof or pressure. I honestly explained why I knew about a healer, but that's not believed either.

No one has come up with a counter claim to what I claimed. My vote is on someone who verified my claim at least twice. Some folks, like they're talking to themselves, say there must be a mis-direction player, but don't mention my claim or the verification. A very strange group of players indeed. I think you town players, experienced and newbies alike, are being played here. And, not my wish, but I predict based on what I have seen so far, mafia scum will win this game unless a few of you grow a pair. I figure I'll be killed by mafia tonight anyway, so what's the diff.? It will probably be a relief for me, and satisfaction to see who gets egg on their faces.

[strike wolf]

Misdirection doesn't prove little to do with alignment. I can't recall seeing a redirector on mafia before but I see no reason it can't be so I'm not really weighing your claim as proof of town. You know Mets was redirected. So we can prove that you either are the redirector or you know of the redirector. That's about it.

So taking your redirector part away from it, the things that have stood out to me about you are:

1. Admitted to voting for a claim not scumminess Day 1 when voting JFM. Scummy
2. Eager to unvote after getting claims from target. Scummy.
3. Asked to redirect Pershy action on you. Slightly scummy, either eager to prove yourself town (its even listed among your reasoning and in my experience, those most eager to prove themselves town are the ones who actually have the most to hide) or, in context with your claim, potentially misdirect Pershy action to obfuscate the situation.
4. Know about the healer and offered a difficult to believe specific claim to excuse the knowledge. Sorry but a limited copy ability that specifically latches onto a healer is kinda difficult to believe. Scummy.
5. Misuse of Modus ponens logic seemingly to create more of a damning argument against Mets than what actually exists. Scummy.

Unless I misread what you were saying. You would only be able to prove any healing after night 3 and only if youre successful so it's not really a claim that we can rely on testing in any kind of timing that makes sense.

[dakky21]

When I played regularly with The New Crusade (pre-DBD), Metsfanmax and/or blacky would have been soon taken to L-2 to get their claims.

(i'm drunk again) and offtopic

so mets and blacky are playing like me? good to know

[chapcrap]

Tobi, no need to be so dramatic. Again, I don't think some of the logic holds in that post. Why would we immediately bring blacky to L-2 because he claimed poisoned? Or Mets just because you bussed him?

That being said, I do not understand the case on Tobi either. His role is verified by Mets. His alignment isn't verified, but I would think that if he were scum, he would have targeted jfm or dakky on N1 after their claims so that whoever can kill in the mafia group could off a claimed protective role. The scenario to me either confirms that Tobi is town or that Tobi and Mets are working together as scum. Those are the options as I see it...

SW, thanks for answering.

jfm... your posting pattern is so hard to follow. I'm trying to understand. Right now you're saying that the reason that you didn't correct anyone when people called you a doc is because you didn't want them to know the truth about Seraph Knight? I guess not fully claiming initially makes sense, but the short posts, unresponsiveness, lack of clarification, etc since strike wolf counterclaimed leaves me more than suspicious. I'm keeping my vote there.

I'd like to hear from blacky again though. He was dropping hints about letting in be known who he targeted on N1 that potentially is the reason he is poisoned. What are we waiting on for that information blacky?

FP'd by sw and dakky

[Skoffin]

I'm going to ponder a few things and hold off posting for now, largely because it's making me angry and I swore I would not hate post in the moment again. Just saying this now before people wonder why I posted elsehwere and not here as well.

Maybe knowing how you dodged an attack would sort something out, Skoff-cough?

I really can't elaborate

[Pikanchion]

I'm confused about the votes on me. I am the only person with a verified claim. I said in D2 that I mis-directed Metsfanmax, and AFTER THAT, he confirmed he was mis-directed. Scum don't usually mis-direct people, their job is to wipe Townies to the point where they are equivalent in number to Town. NO ONE else here has claimed and had their claim confirmed except me. Whether you believe, as I do, that the only reported action that explains my mis-direction or not is blacky getting poisoned, at least I have town creds from my verified claim. If not, then you are all playing a different game of mafia than my several years of experience. When I played regularly with The New Crusade (pre-DBD), Metsfanmax and/or blacky would have been soon taken to L-2 to get their claims. But, not here. You seem to want to create scum by insinuation, not proof or pressure. I honestly explained why I knew about a healer, but that's not believed either.

No one has come up with a counter claim to what I claimed. My vote is on someone who verified my claim at least twice.

Your Night 1 Action is verified (and you were careful to refer to it as such), you have not actually claimed anything clear for your role overall. It sounds as though you are a variant of a Jack-of-all-trades role, whose action is determined by the role of their previous target, but you haven't actually said as much. Regardless, neither that nor a role that only misdirects a single action each night would be alignment indicative.

The mod said that if my next target prey is a healer, I become one for one night in the future. So, if my prey is a food fish, I get to eat, and if my prey is a healer, I get to heal. That's all I know.

So if whoever you target tonight isn't a healing role you will "eat" (night kill?) them and otherwise you get a heal action for Night 3?

[dakky21]

The mod said that if my next target prey is a healer, I become one for one night in the future. So, if my prey is a food fish, I get to eat, and if my prey is a healer, I get to heal. That's all I know.

So if whoever you target tonight isn't a healing role you will "eat" (night kill?) them and otherwise you get a heal action for Night 3?[/quote]

Don't know why but this smells to me as fishing?

Or... perhaps Pika knows Tobi can heal? FOS both of you.

[dakky21]

sorry didn't quote Pika.. too drunk... night all

[TX AG 90]

At first I thought jfm was town and then started leaning towards scum by the way he responded to accusations. His posts continued to have a "I don't care, lynch me" tone.

However, he seemed to change yesterday and put more into his posts. That coupled with Seraph and Angel fish matching makes me think he is town.

I agree that claiming Seraph Knight is either totally town or an extremely clever scum move.

[Ragian]

So, first of all, I don't think Tobi is scum. He's playing to his meta. He wants proof (fucking biologist) and he has it, but it's hard for anyone to accept his proof as proof because we don't have access to his alignment as he has. The thing about mafia games is that scum will do the exact same thing, only they will be lying. So unless we have bulletproof...proof, we can't really accept you as definite town, Tobi. That said, I still think you're town.

But hey, why is it weirder that Tobi knows of the existence of a healer through a mod note that Blacky's knowledge of it? I believe Blacky was told by the mod that he was poisoned and needed to seek the aid of a healer. Would be a cruel mod PM if there's no healer. I think it's much more plausible that Tobi was told of a healer by the mod than he happened to be a scum role cop that happened to target the healer last night (especially when he claims an action that Mets has confirmed).

Skoffin won't elaborate, and now I've made her leave the party...there's a pattern I'm used to.

It's been a while since I've seen aage...

FP'ed by TX

[Skoffin]

In regards to the healer thing - I think we are taking it to literally. I'm not so sure that it meant "there is a role called Healer" but a generic word that covers healing/protecting roles that was used as an example to describe how the role works. I think 'healer' just means doctor. I also think it may be prudent to be mindful who the setup is being run by; in that sense I think we should be thinking in terms of a regular person using general terms, instead of as a mafia mod with loads of mafia setup experience who would use specific words for a reason.

jfm's claim is consistent with what he said on D1, and I find Seraph Knight to be a role that a person is unlikely to come up with as a fake claim. I also think it's incredibly unlikely to be a scum role, it's super over powered to be able to permanently protect one of your scum buddies (or potentially yourself). So I'm not joining the jfm wagon. I also concur with whoever said that this is not likely to be a standard mafia setup: it doesn't seem implausible to me that there's both a standard town doc and a Seraph Knight. It doesn't necessarily seem likely either, but it's plausible enough that I have strong reservations about voting jfm.

My ability is "prevent all attacks against your target"

I have been trying to tell yous i am town and i just get the you must be scum for giving out info on yourself.My ability is weak at the beginning of the game as i have a less than 7% chance of picking the scums target unless i make myself the target and then they waste thier night.

I have no choice now but to target myself every night but atleast town now knows that i can only be lynched.Also note attacks is plural so you can count on vigilantes in this game.

Honestly I think this is the only legitimate defence of jfm. Had he claimed Seraph Knight D1 I'd be 100% on board with you as I doubt he has the ability to think of that name himself, however he held that info until today - so he has had time to talk with any mafia partners who could have provided the cover for him. I also think there wouldn't be essentially two healers on the town side, so it's essentially him or strike as scum. We really should have taken him out D1 to avoid this mess; not to be a dick, but last time we just allowed someone to play so obviously scummy it destroyed the community. If he is scum then I think Pika would be the most likely person to have helped him with that fakeclaim; in the worst case scenario that he does turn out town - well I am reasonably confident I can figure out who the mafia team are. So frankly it's a risk I think very well may be worth taking.

Skoffin won't elaborate, and now I've made her leave the party...there's a pattern I'm used to..

I will when I deem it vital. Don't worry boo, you are not the one I'm mad at <3 However, what does this part mean?


I'm not partically fond of the way Pika and aage keep swanning in and fading out either- that's my thing.

[Ragian]

In regards to the healer thing - I think we are taking it to literally. I'm not so sure that it meant "there is a role called Healer" but a generic word that covers healing/protecting roles that was used as an example to describe how the role works. I think 'healer' just means doctor. I also think it may be prudent to be mindful who the setup is being run by; in that sense I think we should be thinking in terms of a regular person using general terms, instead of as a mafia mod with loads of mafia setup experience who would use specific words for a reason.


I can agree with that.

jfm's claim is consistent with what he said on D1, and I find Seraph Knight to be a role that a person is unlikely to come up with as a fake claim. I also think it's incredibly unlikely to be a scum role, it's super over powered to be able to permanently protect one of your scum buddies (or potentially yourself). So I'm not joining the jfm wagon. I also concur with whoever said that this is not likely to be a standard mafia setup: it doesn't seem implausible to me that there's both a standard town doc and a Seraph Knight. It doesn't necessarily seem likely either, but it's plausible enough that I have strong reservations about voting jfm.

My ability is "prevent all attacks against your target"

I have been trying to tell yous i am town and i just get the you must be scum for giving out info on yourself.My ability is weak at the beginning of the game as i have a less than 7% chance of picking the scums target unless i make myself the target and then they waste thier night.

I have no choice now but to target myself every night but atleast town now knows that i can only be lynched.Also note attacks is plural so you can count on vigilantes in this game.

Honestly I think this is the only legitimate defence of jfm. Had he claimed Seraph Knight D1 I'd be 100% on board with you as I doubt he has the ability to think of that name himself, however he held that info until today - so he has had time to talk with any mafia partners who could have provided the cover for him. I also think there wouldn't be essentially two healers on the town side, so it's essentially him or strike as scum. We really should have taken him out D1 to avoid this mess; not to be a dick, but last time we just allowed someone to play so obviously scummy it destroyed the community. If he is scum then I think Pika would be the most likely person to have helped him with that fakeclaim; in the worst case scenario that he does turn out town - well I am reasonably confident I can figure out who the mafia team are. So frankly it's a risk I think very well may be worth taking.

I disagree here. If there's an active or passive poisoner as well as scum, I don't see any issues with there being at least two protective roles or doctor roles. Especially not if one of them is a Seraph Knight. Moreover, I don't think that you a) can compare jmf to mitch at all and b) mitch didn't destroy anything. There's not one person that can destroy anything inadvertently.

Skoffin won't elaborate, and now I've made her leave the party...there's a pattern I'm used to..

I will when I deem it vital. Don't worry boo, you are not the one I'm mad at <3 However, what does this part mean?

I will tell you when I deem it vital

I'm not partically fond of the way Pika and aage keep swanning in and fading out either- that's my thing.

[BuJaber]

Part of me wants jfm dead so everyone can shut up about him but I really really can't see how he can be scum here given how D1 went.

[dakky21]

Part of me wants jfm dead so everyone can shut up about him but I really really can't see how he can be scum here given how D1 went.

You've seen things before in other games and you seen that scum can be deceiving... So if you don't see how he can be scum, it's because how do you look...

[BuJaber]

Okay I'll bite. Who's scum with him?

Did they bus day 1 or defend him?

Did they start the wagon on him or did they push a counter?

Did they tell him to claim or did he do that all by himself? If it's A did someone spew that they knew it beforehand? If B did anyone seem surprised by him going all rogue?

What scum narrative actually makes sense to you to explain:
Step 1: scum player claims a 'protective' unprompted and without any heat on them and without any plausible benefit at the start of the game.
Step 2: over half the players interrogate or vote him to elaborate further and/or to lynch him
Step 3: a counterwagon springs up and gets hammered right after jfm fullclaims

The obvious answer is he is a newish player with little experience playing town PR.

Yes mafia is a game of deception but the convulted answers are rarely the right answers.

[dakky21]

You are asking wrong questions (there are no wrong questions, only wrong answers)... actually your questions sound like you are defending Jfm for being a newish player. You know no one can't answer these but yet you ask them again. Newish players can crack when pressurized (even after only few votes) and tell things like "step 1" - claim a protective role because if they're scum, that's a good exit strategy. Been there, done that. I know how is to be scum and have only one or two games played.

Anyway, even if he is a newbie, I stated my reasons D1 for Jfm and today I'm sticking to them. I will re-phrase my question again... so will you let him live because he is newbie? Free pass to the endgame because he is newbie? Think about it.

[Skoffin]

The obvious answer is he is a newish player with little experience playing town PR.

This is what bothers me. He is being allowed to play as scummy as he wants on the basis of "he's too terrible to be scum", and yet he knew enough to lie about his role D1 to cover himself - noob town never lie about their roles, lying about your role as town to trick/trap scum is a skilled town move. We are supposed to accept that is is too bad a player and all his scummy actions are just noob town moves, yet he was clever enough to obfuscate his role D1 to confuse scum from wanting to end him? That doesn't make sense to me; his role change screams that someone has told him what to say.

[Sirius Kase]

I'm confused about the votes on me. I am the only person with a verified claim. I said in D2 that I mis-directed Metsfanmax, and AFTER THAT, he confirmed he was mis-directed. ...... I figure I'll be killed by mafia tonight anyway, so what's the diff.? It will probably be a relief for me, and satisfaction to see who gets egg on their faces.

I don't think it will be you tonight. You are believable. But, we have some play here that is downright strange. Blacky gets poisoned. You claim to have misdirected Mets. Mets almost immediately confirmed he got redirected. It's like a confession to being the poisoner! Then Skoffin says someone tried to attack her, but wasn't successful. Then Blacky suddenly wants everyone to know he's never been scum before! Another confession, I had to read it twice to realize it could be ambiguous. He back pedaled well enough. But, he's not my problem. The poison doctor will decide. I don't need to waste my thinking on him. Either he's town or he's scum, and Mets targeted him for some reason only scum would know.

Here's what is strange, it seems both Mets and Blacky were in an awful big hurry to confess to something. ALSO, jfm let us think he was a healer a long time before he decided he was a seraph knight. It took him awhile to come up with something obscure enough not to draw a counterclaim, IMHO.

I think jfm is annoying but harmless, if he's scum, he can wait. Blacky might be a deadman walking. we can't lynch all of them today so, I pick this one:
VOTE Metsfanmax

[Pikanchion]

The obvious answer is he is a newish player with little experience playing town PR.

That doesn't make sense to me; his role change screams that someone has told him what to say.

If I were scum and my teammate had successfully claimed a town power role the last thing I would do is tell them to claim something slightly different, thereby throwing doubt onto that initial claim.

[Metsfanmax]

Mets almost immediately confirmed he got redirected. It's like a confession to being the poisoner!

It's not quite like that.

I am not a poisoner.

Also, if I were the poisoner, why would I admit it? Either I'm scum and then I'm just giving myself up, or I'm town and I'm letting scum know a power role to target for a kill.