Is God really Just?

[FabledIntegral]

Over 66% of the world is either Islamic or Christian, aka the two largest religions in the world.

Atheists are predicted to only make up around 15% of the world's population, although yes, they are positively correlated with education when comparing with religion (not necessarily intelligence).

[PLAYER57832]

But, while you dismiss or ideas as "fairy tales", people of faith are, as a group, happier, more likely to contribute positively to soceity and generally more likely to be "good neighbors". (based on the most comprehensive studies of the subject .. not my opinion)

Religious people are also, empirically and historically, likelier to discriminate (even violently) against others based on characteristics like gender, lifestyle or faith. I am not saying religion is the sole cause for such behaviour, nor that such behaviour is to be found excusively among religous people, but religion has played and does still play a substantial role for causing and sustaining such behaviour within societies.
I do not deny your claims, but the effects of religion are not necessarily all positive either.

No, religions are no better than the human beings who believe. Athiests can certainly be "good" people by any general measure. Religious people can do, have done and absolutely will continue to do wrong.

What is the saying ... None is so capable of evil as a strong believing person, misguided.

Religion can also most definitely be manipulated by leaders to serve various causes.

To me, real religion is mostly about how to improve oneself. It gets manipulated to other purposes.

[As for the "good neighbours", if those studies were from the comparatively religious USA the majority of people that were asked are not unlikely to be biased in favour of religious neighbours.

Religious people are also, empirically and historically, likelier to discriminate (even violently) against others based on characteristics like gender, lifestyle or faith. I am not saying religion is the sole cause for such behaviour, nor that such behaviour is to be found excusively among religous people, but religion has played and does still play a substantial role for causing and sustaining such behaviour within societies.
I do not deny your claims, but the effects of religion are not necessarily all positive either.

I would say this ties into the negative correlation between religion and intelligence.

Plus there are a lot more of them than us, and so a lot more of them that are easier to control. It isn't a religion thing, it's a stupid people thing.

Come again?

Very tolerant of you, and so very open minded.

There is the perception that lack of religion ties with intelligence, but that was only true for a short time in the beginning of this century. Also remember that those original tests were highly biased towards the people who created them -- specifically white American/European males who often (back then) wanted to dismiss religion as "poppycock".

In other words, if you set up a test where belief in the supernatural is considered "unscientific" and not an indicator of intelligence ... surprise! you get lower scores amongst the religious. Similarly, if you value a certain kind of direct, linear thinking over more creative approaches or more "feeling" approaches, you will tend to rate a certain type of mind -- the "type A" personality.

BUT, the truly interesting fact (and note, I actually score unusually high on those standard tests) is that there is little correlatio between those numbers and any kind of measure of success.


Any way, the more recent truth is that there is no correlation at all. More intelligent people approach religion differently, but both believe.

[PLAYER57832]

Over 66% of the world is either Islamic or Christian, aka the two largest religions in the world.

Atheists are predicted to only make up around 15% of the world's population, although yes, they are positively correlated with education when comparing with religion (not necessarily intelligence).

There are two reasons for this corrolation. First, pure numbers.

The other factor is wealth. Education is directly tied to wealth. More highly wealthy folks are not religious.

[Juan_Bottom]

Hold on now, I'm not saying religious followers are retards. But that there are a lot more of you than us.
Without even wipping out any stats, just thinking about all of the undeveloped countries, and their base beliefs. They surely weigh you down a lot. Just based on sheer massive numbers, there must be a negative correlation.

And i am very aware of the 'intelligence studies' carried out in the 20's and 30's. I wasn't talking about those, only a racist would!

No offence!

[Juan_Bottom]

Over 66% of the world is either Islamic or Christian, aka the two largest religions in the world.

Atheists are predicted to only make up around 15% of the world's population, although yes, they are positively correlated with education when comparing with religion (not necessarily intelligence).

There are two reasons for this corrolation. First, pure numbers.

The other factor is wealth. Education is directly tied to wealth. More highly wealthy folks are not religious.

Agreed!!!!!

[Backglass]

BUT, for those who do believe, it feels a need.

Agree 100%. Some people NEED religion in order to deal/cope/survive.

Is religion necessary to be happy, to lead a "good" and "moral" life? Of course not. Nor does adherance to religion in any way gaurantee that those good things will take precedence.

Again, I agree.

What we REALLY need is to accept that people are different, have different ideas. As long as we each speak truthfully, as long as we agree to work together on issues of importance, what do our personal belief difference matter?

It doesn't if it stops there. It seems we have a very similar way of thinking Player. Personally, I could care less what Jay or you or anyone else does in their private homes or church/synagogue/mosque/cave. Pray 18 hours a day...sacrifice a chicken...knock yourself out. It doesn't bother me in the slightest. But it doesn't stop there. It is when theses people determine that MY kids will be better off learning their fairy tales in PUBLIC school or that I will be better off with THEIR religious texts on the courthouse wall, or tell other women what they can and cannot do with their bodies that I take issue. When is the last time you saw a Buddhist Billboard on the highway chastising you?

I DO ask a minimum of respect and tolerance for my beliefs, though definitely not acceptance. I WILL absolutely defend my beliefs (and do not consider defense of other beliefs to be "disrespectful" ... as long as they are reasonably worded).

I respect your right to believe (or not believe) whatever you wish. Thus far you have not told me I am terribly unhappy, going to hell, that "the end is near" or jays favorite: "You'll see! WHEN YOUR DEAD!" and thats a good thing.

we can look around and see the goodness that is the response to evil, see the help and aid that comes every day. If we look for those things, then we tend to be happier, AND are actually more likely to go out and behave in good ways ourselves. So, the real question is not about justice. The real question is how you act from day to day.

Exactly...and that doesn't require a religion. Just a decent human being.

[PLAYER57832]

What we REALLY need is to accept that people are different, have different ideas. As long as we each speak truthfully, as long as we agree to work together on issues of importance, what do our personal belief difference matter?

It doesn't if it stops there. It seems we have a very similar way of thinking Player. Personally, I could care less what Jay or you or anyone else does in their private homes or church/synagogue/mosque/cave. Pray 18 hours a day...sacrifice a chicken...knock yourself out. It doesn't bother me in the slightest. But it doesn't stop there. It is when theses people determine that MY kids will be better off learning their fairy tales in PUBLIC school or that I will be better off with THEIR religious texts on the courthouse wall, or tell other women what they can and cannot do with their bodies that I take issue.

ABSOLUTELY! If anything, I probably get angrier, because they are using my Bible to try and justify these things.

When is the last time you saw a Buddhist Billboard on the highway chastising you?

Maybe not a billboard, but folks carrying plackards -- last time I was in CA ... lol

(but, I also know full well that those folks don't really represent Buddhism any more, in many ways even less, than the more vocally narrow individuals represent Christianity)

One thing, though, I will say. There is a fine line between freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion. The first benefits all. The second ... is as bad as me telling you that you HAVE to believe. Having grown up in CA, having lived in and gone to school for a while in Europe as well, that the pendulum has sometimes swung a bit far in the "no religion" direction. The US fundamentalist movement is at least partially in response to that swing.

I think the key there is just that folks keep talking and keep listening to each other. I find that most people are able to get along, to understand each other pretty well. The problems come when things get reduced to sound bytes and slogans.

And that is one reason why I rebel somewhat against this whole "you gotta keep things short" idea. (that said, brevity is a good thing .. .as long as it is not carried too far).

[suggs]

Yes, but verbose waffle is often just a cover for vacuity and lack of analytical rigour.
In general, its the xians who like to waffle, because they are defending a fundamentally incoherent position.
I feel sorry for them really, because they've got their work cut out.
Whereas, for the agnostic or atheist, we can say, "well, your position amounts to 'God knows best and i have faith". Its fairly clear thats not an argument, so the xians have to retreat into allegory and questionable analogies.

[PLAYER57832]

Yes, but verbose waffle is often just a cover for vacuity and lack of analytical rigour.
In general, its the xians who like to waffle, because they are defending a fundamentally incoherent position.
I feel sorry for them really, because they've got their work cut out.
Whereas, for the agnostic or atheist, we can say, "well, your position amounts to 'God knows best and i have faith". Its fairly clear thats not an argument, so the xians have to retreat into allegory and questionable analogies.

So said the blind man about the elephant ....

Sometimes it is not the speaker, but the listener that is limited.

[suggs]

you were doing so well until you started to write

[Juan_Bottom]

Yes, but verbose waffle is often just a cover for vacuity and lack of analytical rigour.
In general, its the xians who like to waffle, because they are defending a fundamentally incoherent position.
I feel sorry for them really, because they've got their work cut out.
Whereas, for the agnostic or atheist, we can say, "well, your position amounts to 'God knows best and i have faith". Its fairly clear thats not an argument, so the xians have to retreat into allegory and questionable analogies.

So said the blind man about the elephant ....

Sometimes it is not the speaker, but the listener that is limited.

Huh? Are you making a joke? Isn't that kinda what SUGGS said a Christian would say?--->not to sound mean(was that a joke???).

[rocky mountain]

or jays favorite: "You'll see! WHEN YOUR DEAD!" and thats a good thing.

Atheists say the same thing. maybe not you, but some do. so it's not just christians.
what do you mean by "and thats a good thing"?

[Juan_Bottom]

Atheists say the same thing. maybe not you, but some do. so it's not just christians.
what do you mean by "and thats a good thing"?

Absolutly ROCKYMOUNTAIN, seems like a lot of people resort to that exact phrase after they become frustrated. And Jay is frustrated a lot, because his view is often the minority one. It's hard to have an argument when it's 30 vs 1. Not that he is wrong or anything. But even now, they're still after him!

[MeDeFe]

or jays favorite: "You'll see! WHEN YOUR DEAD!" and thats a good thing.

Atheists say the same thing. maybe not you, but some do. so it's not just christians.
what do you mean by "and thats a good thing"?

"and that's a good thing" refers to player not having done any of the things Backglass mentioned.

[PLAYER57832]

I thought the story of the blind men and the elephant were pretty well known, but anyway ..

3 blind wise men were shown an elephant and told to examine it. One felt the trunk, another the foot, another the body. Each came up with completely accurate descriptions of what they saw, but all very different.

No one can absolutely "know" whether God exists or not, what happens after we die. Shoot, we can barely even understand time. (what came before ... after ... is there such a thing ... how can there not be?)

So, yes, you can say that Christians eventually fall back on "you either understand or you don't". So, for that matter do athiests (though they often try to couch it by saying that the things they do believe can be proven ... which is essentially true, but also essentially irrelevant ).


Suggs, however was trying to say that because we Christians (and yes, though I definitely disagree with some of the others on a lot of things, we all still share the same broad faith) cannot come up with absolute answers we were somehow inferior to the intellectual thinking of athiests.

I say he is like one of the wise men examining the elephant. He sees what he sees. I see something different. Who is right? Maybe neither ... and perhaps both.

And ... absolutely, some Christians are amongst the most bull-headed of individuals. But, not all. (and that quality is not limited to Christians ... lol)

[FabledIntegral]

Over 66% of the world is either Islamic or Christian, aka the two largest religions in the world.

Atheists are predicted to only make up around 15% of the world's population, although yes, they are positively correlated with education when comparing with religion (not necessarily intelligence).

There are two reasons for this corrolation. First, pure numbers.

The other factor is wealth. Education is directly tied to wealth. More highly wealthy folks are not religious.

Not exactly. Currently the people that have the most education are college students, as much of their knowledge that they retain from the education dwindles from the years. In the prime of their education, students are generally very poor. I myself am a university student at UCI, and have less than $500 in my account atm (and gas prices at $4.15 are killing me ). And studies show religion is lowest at urban areas + colleges... although from what I'm aware they still make up a majority.

[InkL0sed]

Over 66% of the world is either Islamic or Christian, aka the two largest religions in the world.

Atheists are predicted to only make up around 15% of the world's population, although yes, they are positively correlated with education when comparing with religion (not necessarily intelligence).

There are two reasons for this corrolation. First, pure numbers.

The other factor is wealth. Education is directly tied to wealth. More highly wealthy folks are not religious.

Not exactly. Currently the people that have the most education are college students, as much of their knowledge that they retain from the education dwindles from the years. In the prime of their education, students are generally very poor. I myself am a university student at UCI, and have less than $500 in my account atm (and gas prices at $4.15 are killing me ). And studies show religion is lowest at urban areas + colleges... although from what I'm aware they still make up a majority.

I'm not sure how true that is of the world outside the US... after all, I'm pretty sure that educated Indonesians are usually pretty rich ( at least, relative to the average Indonesian).

[Juan_Bottom]

I thought the story of the blind men and the elephant were pretty well known, but anyway ..

3 blind wise men were shown an elephant and told to examine it. One felt the trunk, another the foot, another the body. Each came up with completely accurate descriptions of what they saw, but all very different.

No one can absolutely "know" whether God exists or not, what happens after we die. Shoot, we can barely even understand time. (what came before ... after ... is there such a thing ... how can there not be?)

Yeah, and SUGGS called it.....

so the xians have to retreat into allegory and questionable analogies.

[FabledIntegral]

Over 66% of the world is either Islamic or Christian, aka the two largest religions in the world.

Atheists are predicted to only make up around 15% of the world's population, although yes, they are positively correlated with education when comparing with religion (not necessarily intelligence).

There are two reasons for this corrolation. First, pure numbers.

The other factor is wealth. Education is directly tied to wealth. More highly wealthy folks are not religious.

Not exactly. Currently the people that have the most education are college students, as much of their knowledge that they retain from the education dwindles from the years. In the prime of their education, students are generally very poor. I myself am a university student at UCI, and have less than $500 in my account atm (and gas prices at $4.15 are killing me ). And studies show religion is lowest at urban areas + colleges... although from what I'm aware they still make up a majority.

I'm not sure how true that is of the world outside the US... after all, I'm pretty sure that educated Indonesians are usually pretty rich ( at least, relative to the average Indonesian).

Well considering that the United States has the highest percentage of Christians residing in it compared to all other countries... there are currently a higher percentage of Christians in America than Jewish people living in Israel, if that gives any clue to the landslide amount of Christians in American life. It is by far the largest Christian country in the world... sort of used it to compare the Christian God either way... especially since those correlations between education and wealth are most likely (from what I can gather... I have no real backing more than gut feeling) are from studies done in the US.

[joecoolfrog]

The point should also be made that a lot of people are only nominaly religious, Many people in Britain might say they are COE but have not prayed or set foot in a church ( outside weddings/funerals ) for years.

[tzor]

I would say this is true in the United States as well. I know in the case of Roman Catholics in my areas the majority of the families only attend church so that their children can be given the sacraments. When their children aren't in classes they almost never show up. I don't know about the attendance of Protestant Churches in the area but I have a feeling that they suffer the same problem. Mind you there are exceptions, and there are small number of faithful attenders in all the Churches, but you can't go simply "by the numbers."

[Backglass]

The point should also be made that a lot of people are only nominaly religious, Many people in Britain might say they are COE but have not prayed or set foot in a church ( outside weddings/funerals ) for years.

I believe this is true of a great majority of people in the US as well. They call themselves christian and may even belong to a church but they do these things to be part of the group and not be viewed as an outsider, or worse. Do they really, truly believe that magical gods exist? Or are they just there to see their friends & neighbors and "fit in". I know for a fact that In thousands of small towns around our country if you DON'T show up at church, the gossip starts. "Maybe my kids shouldn't play with hers since she isn't a christian like us"..."Maybe I shouldn't give his business my money since he's not a believer", etc. Peer pressure doesn't stop in High School, especially in small town middle America. If in Rome and you want to fit in, you "do as the Romans do" as the saying goes. Now obviously there are always going to be those who could care less and go their own way, but those are the minority as the average American just wants to fit in and get along with everybody. Obviously this effect is greatly diminished in the larger, more diverse cities and thus I believe it is the reason you find more atheist's in larger cities.

[PLAYER57832]

Over 66% of the world is either Islamic or Christian, aka the two largest religions in the world.

Atheists are predicted to only make up around 15% of the world's population, although yes, they are positively correlated with education when comparing with religion (not necessarily intelligence).

There are two reasons for this corrolation. First, pure numbers.

The other factor is wealth. Education is directly tied to wealth. More highly wealthy folks are not religious.

Not exactly. Currently the people that have the most education are college students, as much of their knowledge that they retain from the education dwindles from the years. In the prime of their education, students are generally very poor. I myself am a university student at UCI, and have less than $500 in my account atm (and gas prices at $4.15 are killing me ). And studies show religion is lowest at urban areas + colleges... although from what I'm aware they still make up a majority.

No, by the standards of most of the world "poor" college students are actually quite rich.

They have food (more than many, even if they miss a meal or don't eat the best) shelter ... often even medical care, even in the US, where those things are not free.

[jay_a2j]

Wow, you really need to read Genesis again. God created Adam "from the dust of the Earth".

So does Evolution .. or just what do you think minerals, etc. are?

Not evolved Adam from an ape. You are the one believing lies.

The funny thing is that Evolution does not say man evolved from an ape either ... CHECK YOUR FACTS! And that about sums up the biggest reason why Creationists tend to be considered at best HIGHLY misinformed and more often, highly gullible to down right idiotic.

There is a reason science cannot prove evolution, because it never happened.

No, science almost never PROVES anything .. it generally disproves stuff ... and your version of Creationism HAS been disproven. Further, though there are legitimate questions about Evolution (big E, the theory) ... such as were dinosaurs warm blooded, did birds evolve directly from certain dinosaurs, exactly how old the earth is etc. There IS NO question about the foundations, the basics.

The FACTS are that evolution (small e) as a process HAS been proven. Natural selection DOES occur, but is not the only factor of Evolution (and Christians absolutely believe God is steering the whole enterprise!). Mutations absolutely occur. Species absolutely change over time and DO become other species, though quite slowly. The Earth is definitely millions of years old, not thousands.

And be warned that many attend church but that does not make them Christian.

You took the words out of my mouth ...

Some "Christian" denominations support homosexuality, will you then support it, if it becomes the "norm" in Christian churches?

When I am perfect, THEN and only then will I have the right to judge others. THAT is what the Bible says. Until then, the earthly concern is one of "will it harm me". Homosexuality does not.

If your understanding of scripture is based on "majority rules" without verifying the teaching in scripture, you may end up being a part of fulfilled prophecy..... "In those days many will be deceived, even the elect if that were possible".

No majority does not rule, but there are very good reasons WHY so many, many, many churches agree with evolution. It is REAL. Denying it is to deny truth. Period. There IS no other way around it. IF you bothered to research the "facts" you claim support your ideas, you would realize this. Instead, you wish to view the MOST NARROW possible interpretation.

Doesn't it strike you as just a little strange that, while you claim to adhere so strictly to the OLD TESTAMENT, that Jews - the keepers of the old testament since before Christ, the very folks who brought forth Christ and to whom we look for our historical precedence.. THEY have NEVER questioned this idea of evolution ...

YOUR ideas are limited to a very narrow group of supposedly "fundamentalist" Christians. You want to draw fine lines around words like "dust" and claim that the Genesis reference to "days" means a revolution of the our Earth (before Earth even existed!) instead of as bodies of time, an illustration for non-scientific humans. The concept of working, then resting. You want to take that reference as absolutely and utterly exact, yet, later, when the Bible talks of "sons of God" ... and talks of "Giants" THEN you decide it is OK to not be so literal.

You want to hold certain laws as above others, though the BIBLE, the new Testament tells us the law to hold ABOVE ALL ELSE is to "love thy God and love thy neighbor as thyself", NOT "judge everyone". I stand by my beliefs and my views. I stand among much good company.

If you wished to look critically at those who are proposing what you put forth, you will not find such stellar examples. You will find people putting forth hatred of others as if it were love, condemnation instead of acceptance and forgiveness. Judgement of others instead of self-criticism. Lies that are "OK" because in the end, they will be justified by truth (talk about hypocrisy!). THOSE are not the principals that Christ put forth.


YOu want evidence of evolution? Look around, watch the plants grow, LEARN about the relationships between animals, plants, the impacts that we, as humans have had on the Earth around us. Only God could have created such perfection (and yes, I know non Christians don't agree .. move on, please). To limit God to what YOU percieve, to what YOU think is to deny his majesty. How simple it would have been for him to simply snap his fingers and say "poof" here is everything. Except, that is not what actually happened. What did happen is a testament to God, not believing lies.

You want to try to challenge Evolution? FIRST understand it. I am not discussing it further in this thread. I am not going to repeat what has already been said in other threads again and again. You can either view truth or let yourself be decieved. Everything science puts forward as truth is PROVED. Creationism insists on falsities and lies.

Well, I can't get into all the things wrong with this post because I don't want to be here forever. You seem to know a lot about me..."you" , "your"...you have no idea what I believe or why I believe what I believe. But I digress, I'm not going to argue with someone so adamant about "being right". I am having a difficult time buying "most Christians support evolution" so I started a poll in the JF forum. Currently, creation by way of evolution, is getting crushed, but who knows, that could change. I guess even if creation via evolution loses the poll, the majority here at CC are a bunch of misled fools "believing lies".

There is no "evidence of evolution". Science law #1, "It must be observable" and since it is not, it is not proven. Now I know there are a lot of people who insist evolution is fact. But sadly, they aren't looking at the facts. If evolution was ever proven to be fact, we would no longer be debating it. It is a theory and only a theory.

[heavycola]

There is no "evidence of evolution".

how many times...
yeah jay, darwin just had a massive random guess that everyone thought sounded kinda funky. That's all it is.

Now I know there are a lot of people who insist gravity is fact. But sadly, they aren't looking at the facts. If gravity was ever proven to be fact, we would no longer be debating it. It is a theory and only a theory.

Evolution vs creation is not really a debate, not matter how many times creationists flatter themselves that it is. It's on the same footing as the argument between flat-earthers and the rest of us 'globists'.