Holy Wars - The Crusades - 13th Century

[Lupo]

I really like all the energy you're putting on this map!

Please, do not mind, but I would like to give you some feedbacks that I would appreciate if you take into account.


About Italy, I would let the Papal State and Sicily as they were before, only adding the Tuscany to the Holy Roman Empire and changing the colour of Sicily from Yellow to Red, as you did, and its name into KINGDOM OF SICILY.

It's nice to see also Sardinia and Corsica on the map:
maybe you should make them a bit bigger, 'cause they are not in scale with Italy (look at the space between north africa and sardinia!).
why don't you change their colour from pink to Red?
I suggest that Sardinia and Corsica could become a new territory, making a bridge between Holy Roman Empire and the Kingdom of Sicily. You could name this territory DOMINION OF PISA, in this way this territory start from Pisa and would end in Sardinia. (NOTE that you could also simply add Sardinia and Corsica to the Holy Roman Empire, in this way you do not have to add a new territory!). You need only to make a connection between Sicily and Sardinia and everything will work fine!

[AndyDufresne]

I suggest looking in the map making tools and downloading another free trial of a program or use a free open source program to finish completing the map. It does look quite beautiful.

About bonuses, what have you considered?

Also, if you are able to work on it again, as you mentioned slightly, some work on the water would be much appreciated.

Perhaps you should consider renaming a few areas so they aren't so much in the drop down menu. 'The kingdom of the celts' --> 'Celtic Kingdom/s'. Perhaps something similar with the kingdom of the franks.

The font of the various bodies of water is slightly hard to read. I like the font, but perhaps make it bigger so it is clearer what each are. Or considering looking into a different font.

This map is coming along!


--Andy

[coup]

its norwegians not norvegians

oh, and another thing, i have no clue on this one, just asking: is it supposed to be djengis not jengis? i'm no good in history, just remmembered djengis kahn and i don't know if its even related...

[Marvaddin]

I think the map is now a bit unbalanced. Countries and borders are the most significant things to conquer and hold a continent, and actually the numbers are:

Brown and Blue: 7 countries, 3 borders (between these, brown has advantage being nearer to pink).
Yellow: 6 and 4.
Red: 8 and 4.
Green: 8 and 5, or 9 and 4 considering Holy Lands.

So Catholics and the Emirates are more difficult than the others. I understand we can consider Papal as a province of Catholics, and Holy Lands is adjacent to the Emirates, but, these regions still need be holdable, or cant get the pink bonuses. Some time ago I suggested to make the Yellow region a no man land, really difficult to hold, is always good have a continent with little interest from the start, it allows more strategies. Yellow is the best place, since its central to the map. But then, it now has same number of borders, and 2 less countries than Catholics and Emirates.

This time I think almost all changes make the map worse. We have a clear scale of better to worse continents (brown, blue, yellow, red, green), they are not balanced.

We need think about this. If the continent is adjacent or near to pinkies, good, so it can be a little easier to hold / conquer, not the same of a another continent nearer pinkies. Orthodox should be the most difficult, as in the first map, adjacent to both, very good. The blue should be a little easier. Then the brown and red should be balanced, and a bit more difficult than blue, and green more difficult, but not as yellow.

A thing I would suggest as a start to correct some problems, maybe you can make all Italia the Papal States (even why Italia didnt exist at 1220).

[CHAMPOS]

sorry but lipo has made this better

what contient would you go for

pagan and moguls - 3 to defend and 3 armies

catholics and islam - 4 to defned and 5 armies 9 (WITH BONUS)

AND orthodox in the middle as a possibility - with only 6, with four to defend

suits each player = any comments

champos

[Lupo]

Honestly, I would find a compromise between the playability of the map and its historical contents...
Maybe we should think about how to divide better the continents and their territories,
always remembering that this map would lose its own particularity if we go too far away from hystory.

This problem could be, at least in part, solved introducing on the map natural barrier such as montains, rivers, deserts.
In this way, the central continents would be a bit easier to hold than before.



I would suggest to insert:

1.the Volga and part of the Caspian Sea and Caucasus mountains -> this would make Mogul continent more interessing;

2. the Carpathians to make easier the borders between Roman Catholic continent and Ortodox one;

3. the Sahara desert and Atlas mountains to make spicer North Africa.

[Marvaddin]

Champos, did you give up from same bonuses to each area?

[P Gizzle]

i like it. it's looking good, and has potential

[happysadfun]

add portugal and "kingdoms of the celts. that would be more accurate.

[CHAMPOS]

Bonuses have stayed the same - 3 for each religion - easy to remember!!

The way the map is set up you would most probably go for the following:

Mongul and Pagan - 7 territories, 3 to defend, bonus of 3 each

Catholic and Islam - 9 territories (with Papal and Holy Lands respecively), 4 to defend, bonus of 5 (3 for region and additional 2 for pink)

Orthodox - 6 territories, 4 to defend, bonus of 3

I will make a couple of futher changes re names etc but don't reckon mountains would add to it (most would be within regions anyway)

Game on

[Lupo]

About ortographical corrections: t's ALMOHADES and not Alomohades!

[Marvaddin]

Catholic and Islam - 9 territories (with Papal and Holy Lands respecively), 4 to defend, bonus of 5 (3 for region and additional 2 for pink)

So you are killing your own idea. The point is no more fight for the pinkies, they are simply an optional country for a bigger bonus in these 2 regions. I dislike, I would prefer them as targets for all regions.

[CHAMPOS]

the bonuses are:

- 3 for each continent
- and if you own at least one continent (any continent), you recieve an additional bonus of 2 for each pink and 4 for both


whilst the Catholics and Islamics are most likely to go for them (given proximity) this does not preclude the others going for them - in fact it probably promotes it

many crusades from each of the regions are expected.....

[Marvaddin]

I understood the idea, but I dont think things like close Papal states in the Catholics continent is a good idea. Also, Catholics and Emirates are now the most difficult regions, without balance.

I believe you can make all Italia Papal States. So, two continents will have direct access to both: Emirates and Orthodox, Emirate with more countries and Orthodox with more borders. Maybe you can then give to Mogul access to Holy Lands (for example merging Kublai and Mosul), like Catholics and Papal. These two continents would be balanced, a bit easier than the other 2. And finnaly the Barbarians could be the easiest, far from both pinkies, but not so easy too. One country, or one border less.

With actual country dispersion, only 3 continents have access to pink areas, and Orthodox is very difficult to hold, so, they are not as good as targets, but to compensate, red and green continents are more difficult than they should. I believe you are killing really the most interest thing of the map. This way we have 2 better continents fighting for prevent other 2 continents for being hold, not for the sacred lands. The other way, I imagine really more fights for pinkies, since Catholics and Mogul, balanced ones, are not adjacent. So they will fight Emirates for Papal and Holy Lands. Barbarians can be a pest, because they will be easy, but more distant from pinkies, they cant prevent others continent, so... total war.

[happysadfun]

What if everything can attack holyland and papal states? that would be all-out war. but not as historically accurate

[sfhbballnut]

that would be ridiculous, it would be a strategically bad idea to try to hold them, might make things interesting though.....hmmm...

[Marvaddin]

Well, the battles in almost all games here arent historically accurate... this is ridiculous.

About being a bad idea hold pinkies, of course no... Since its one country for a bonus of 2, its usually a good idea, but of course this will not happen always. The new possibilities, however, are the good point of the map, I think. Leave an enemy hold it? Spend more armies taking it than you will gain? What to do? New strategic options, so its a must.

[CHAMPOS]

correct map!!
37 countries
5 religions
bonus of 3 armies for each group of countries (colour)
additional bonus (if you already own at least one group of countries) of:
- 2 armies for holding PAPAL STATES
- 2 armies for holding HOLY LANDS
- 4 for holding both
[img][img]http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l196/champos/FINAL-VERSION3.jpg[/img][/img]

[hitandrun]

I like the map, could spark some great arguements!!!

[shinmen]

Really nice, original and interesting.

[happysadfun]

I like it but I NEED PORTUGAL IN THERE!

[Marvaddin]

Ok, let me analyse the continents now:

Countries, border countries, routes, distance from pinkies.
Catholics - 7, 4, 6, adjacent
Emirates - 8, 5, 5, adjacent to both
Orthodox - 6, 4, 9, adjacent to both
Barbarians - 7, 3, 6, 2
Mogul - 7, 3, 4, 1

Hmmm, Its much better I think. Much more balanced
I think the Orthodox are very difficult, even to a no men land. Its not easy to hold when you can be attacked from 9 locations. One less border, maybe? Maybe removing border between Holy Empire and Bulgaria? Not necessary, however.

At the other hand, Mogul is easier to hold. Here I think we should do something. We could think about a new country, maybe, or maybe some new borders? Khan - Chernigov?

About the legend, its still not clear if a player holding a continent and both pinkies will receive 3 (continent) + 2 (Papal) + 2 (Holy) + 4 (both), or if this last bonus doesnt exist. In my opinion, it should exist, but not 4, I would suggest a 2. So, 6 total armies for holding both, it would increase attacks to the pinkies from other players, when someone try to hold both.

[reverend_kyle]

I think holding pinkies should be worth 2 no matter what.. but they be attacked from every territory.. that would make for interesting strategy.

[Lupo]

I would suggest to remove the border between Hungary and Galicia. This could be done with the help of Carpathians.

[gavin_sidhu]

I think holding pinkies should be worth 2 no matter what.. but they be attacked from every territory.. that would make for interesting strategy.

Too big an advantage if you started with both of them.