Logic dictates that there is a God!

[vtmarik]

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

[jay_a2j]

I can imagine a world with no war, jihad and persecution.

Its comming soon enuff. But then again, those who reject God won't be there.

[vtmarik]

Its comming soon enuff. But then again, those who reject God won't be there.

And you see, statements like this one is why we can't have a real debate. Every time someone makes a statement that's true and mostly irrefutable (or at least hard to refute without making your own case look bad) you retreat to a veiled reference to some Christian precept whilst doing your best to be as condescending and as vague as possible.

Do you expect us to take you seriously when you retreat to the old standard "Well, we'll all be in Heaven soon and then war will be over" line?

[jay_a2j]

Its comming soon enuff. But then again, those who reject God won't be there.

And you see, statements like this one is why we can't have a real debate. Every time someone makes a statement that's true and mostly irrefutable (or at least hard to refute without making your own case look bad) you retreat to a veiled reference to some Christian precept whilst doing your best to be as condescending and as vague as possible.

Do you expect us to take you seriously when you retreat to the old standard "Well, we'll all be in Heaven soon and then war will be over" line?

Humans were never intended to war or kill or rape or anything that displeases God. We choose to do these things, so don't blame God. Secondly, Gods Kingdom will be set up on Earth and life will be as God intedned us to live. In peace... no war, killing, rape none of it. However those who reject God will not be there. Now how is that vague? And you wanna talk about "standard lines"? How about, "God ain't real cause I say so." Give me a break. I'm as certain of Gods existence as much as my own. Its not a "belief" its a knowledge, a fact. But far be it from me to stand in the way of unbelief.... carry on with your bad self.

[Backglass]

Secondly, Gods Kingdom will be set up on Earth and life will be as God intedned us to live.

Sad he couldnt get it right the first time. And why Earth? Why not just create a new giant planet NOW, snatch the good people off and leave us evil non-believers to live in our awful warless, jihadless, godless society?

Oh yeah...I forgot. He's LIKES watching people suffering and killing each other...like a 6-year old with his first ant-farm.

It's a BIG cosmic game of Command-and-Conquer. Gotcha.

How about, "God ain't real cause I say so." Give me a break.

There are no gods, just as there are no ghosts, fortune tellers, dopplegangers or psychics who can speak to the dead. There are plenty of magicians however. Some can even pull an endless stream of scarves out of their mouths, produce cards from empty hands and turn water into wine.

far be it from me to stand in the way of unbelief.... carry on with your bad self.

As you will carry on with your dreamy fairy tales.

[2dimes]

NO it isn't. If you belive in God until you're dead then there is nothing you won't be upset at all how could you be.

A belief in God is no different than a belief in Santa, the only possible difference being that no one has ever been shunned, fired, or publicly ridiculed for not believing in Santa Claus.

The tooth fairy, The easter bunny, and Santa are all fictional characters created through either commercialization, the gentle warping of an icon (St. Nicholas into Santa) or a misappropriation of pagan imagery by early Christians eager to convert heathens ("Bunnies are for shagging, eggs are for fertility, it's the spring festival"). Christian God is a mishmash of incoherent concepts that are adjusted slightly to suit the needs of the defender.

I believe that Christian God is not God. Christian God (C-God to his homies) seems to be too open to interpretation and too incompetent to be considered a God. At the very best He's an egregore [a magickal device/servitor created by a group rather than an individual, further information here.) and at the very least He's fiction. Real God doesn't want or need money, prayer, devotion, or followers. The disciples followed Jesus around because A) Jesus had a lot of good ideas and was a groovy cat to hang with and B) They didn't have the guts to admit to themselves that they had no original ideas.

Jesus wasn't the Son of God, but he was far beyond his (or even our) time. Until Christians can stop using Jesus as an excuse for whatever they say or do then I will continue to consider Christian God as a group creation rather than an immutable force. Forgive me for having a mind crafted from the dual crucibles of Atheism and Catholicism before venturing out and finding my own truth for myself. There should be as many religions as there are people, but some are unwilling to trust themselves and so they turn to C-God, Allah, YHVH, or some other hive mind creation.

I'm not following.

You told a finely crafted tale of someone holding a belief for 5 years then being upset when finding out it was not true. Then said if you believe something for longer it would be more traumatic.

I stated that if you die and there is nothing you will not have the ability to be upset about it.

Then you posted your thing about not getting fired for not believing in Santa Claus.

Erm... ok.

Again you could put Santa Claus in there as he seems popular. If some how you managed to hold firm to a belief that he is real then die. If that's the end you won't be sad. You also won't be anything else.

I further contend you won't be able to drive a car after you die regardless.

[vtmarik]

I'm not following.

You told a finely crafted tale of someone holding a belief for 5 years then being upset when finding out it was not true. Then said if you believe something for longer it would be more traumatic.

I stated that if you die and there is nothing you will not have the ability to be upset about it.

Then you posted your thing about not getting fired for not believing in Santa Claus.

Erm... ok.

Again you could put Santa Claus in there as he seems popular. If some how you managed to hold firm to a belief that he is real then die. If that's the end you won't be sad. You also won't be anything else.

I further contend you won't be able to drive a car after you die regardless.

I was kinda making fun of you, but it turned into something else entirely. *shrugs* Sometimes I go all stream of consciousness and I just write. Sure, if you believe until the day you die then sure, you won't be sad. I was merely pointing out that a paradigm shift before that point but after 20-30 years in the club would be more psychologically scarring than a 5-10 year shift from Santa to No Santa.

I put Santa in there simply because well, he was the one most talked about recently. I could just as easily used E. Bunny, or Cupid, or any other of the Holiday Mascots.

So yeah, sorry, I just kinda kept on going without any real substance.

EDIT: However, you're mostly talking about the post before the one you quoted, what is your assessment of my statements in the post that you did quote?

[vtmarik]

Humans were never intended to war or kill or rape or anything that displeases God. We choose to do these things, so don't blame God.

Why would I blame God for something Man did? Oh that's right, He created us. But wait, He gave us free will. So, doesn't that kind of mean that He intended for Man to do as Man chooses to do?

Secondly, Gods Kingdom will be set up on Earth and life will be as God intedned us to live. In peace... no war, killing, rape none of it. However those who reject God will not be there. Now how is that vague?

"Its comming soon enuff. But then again, those who reject God won't be there."

That's pretty damn vague. I'm glad you clarified it in this post, but don't go acting like it was clear from the get-go.

And you wanna talk about "standard lines"? How about, "God ain't real cause I say so." Give me a break. I'm as certain of Gods existence as much as my own. Its not a "belief" its a knowledge, a fact. But far be it from me to stand in the way of unbelief.... carry on with your bad self.

Like I said, as many religions as there are people. Your God is not the same as the God I have experienced. I'm not an unbeliever and I'd thank you to stop calling me one. I'm simply here to lead by example, the example of a spiritual person who believes in the possibility of a being advanced enough to be called a God. I approach C-God on the basis of what C-God is, an unstable egregore. A creation of a hive mind that is as pliable as silly putty when it comes to your group justifying it's own orthodoxy. Presuppositional Apologetics like yourself don't ever engage in logical debate; you engage in conversations in which you just keep repeating the same things over and over again while not bringing anything new to the table whilst simultaneously acting like everything you say is newer than the last thing.

Why do I waste my time here? Because I'm bored, I'm eager to keep up the pressure, and I'm also trying to lead by example. I've attended mass at a Catholic Church, I've gone to services at a Baptist Church, and the only thing I came out with was a healthy distaste for the Bible and those who use it as a tool for hammering C-God into areas He doesn't belong (such as science classes, governmental buildings, and my front door at 7 in the goddamned morning). Forgive me if I require just a shred more humility in my choice of congregation. "Oh, look at me, I'm doing what my pastor tells me to without concern of my own wants and/or desires. Because Jesus died for my sins, I will now sacrifice my free time and energy to hanging out with a bunch of people and listening to someone preachify instead of going out in the world and doing my own research and preachifying. Jesus would have wanted that."

Reminds me of those Cross-Walk assholes who drag around paper mache crosses on wheels in some half-assed, relay race attempt to try to comprehend how Jesus felt with a 70 pound beam tied to his back while walking through the desert heat.

[2dimes]

Well it kind of looks like you don't have a problem with God so much as people running amok and trying to profess things about God while contradicting each other.

The particular group allthough not really a group are the ones called Christians.

You're confused that there are so many different beliefs and they are all using the same title and trying to say "Hey we're christians, this is what God is and it's absolute truth you better believe what we tell you or your going to be punished."

Since the story is different as told by the different groups it's kind of hard to buy because if it's true it can only be one way. Yet one group says God's an apple and the next Group says he's an orange sort of thing.

I guess to be some what specific.
one person says "I'm a christian and God is so mad he's going to kill you so you better believe what I tell you." then another person says "I'm a christian and God loves you completely just because you're his creation so you better believe what I tell you."

If that's what you're saying I agree, people like to get religious and think their way is the only way.

There can only be one truth so some of the people saying "I know who God is." must be wrong. Sort of you can't all be right but you can all be wrong.

Sort of like when the media talks about a person, one source says positive things and another might say negative things about the same subject. You might be able to figure it out by reading all of it but if you know them you might still wonder if some of the lies are truth or if the truth is a lie. It's a real problem for celeberties when they make the tabloids. Next thing they are on the phone and their mom is asking why they're gay or in rehab. They're like Mom it's not true someone got the story wrong. Mom is like "but I read it in the newspaper." mom doesn't get that the enquirer is not allways a reliable source.

I'm getting tired so I may not be making sense here. I'll have to see if this is funny tomorow. Night all.

[vtmarik]

Well it kind of looks like you don't have a problem with God so much as people running amok and trying to profess things about God while contradicting each other.

The particular group allthough not really a group are the ones called Christians.

You're confused that there are so many different beliefs and they are all using the same title and trying to say "Hey we're christians, this is what God is and it's absolute truth you better believe what we tell you or your going to be punished."

Since the story is different as told by the different groups it's kind of hard to buy because if it's true it can only be one way. Yet one group says God's an apple and the next Group says he's an orange sort of thing.

I guess to be some what specific.
one person says "I'm a christian and God is so mad he's going to kill you so you better believe what I tell you." then another person says "I'm a christian and God loves you completely just because you're his creation so you better believe what I tell you."

If that's what you're saying I agree, people like to get religious and think their way is the only way.

There can only be one truth so some of the people saying "I know who God is." must be wrong. Sort of you can't all be right but you can all be wrong.

Sort of like when the media talks about a person, one source says positive things and another might say negative things about the same subject. You might be able to figure it out by reading all of it but if you know them you might still wonder if some of the lies are truth or if the truth is a lie. It's a real problem for celeberties when they make the tabloids. Next thing they are on the phone and their mom is asking why they're gay or in rehab. They're like Mom it's not true someone got the story wrong. Mom is like "but I read it in the newspaper." mom doesn't get that the enquirer is not allways a reliable source.

I'm getting tired so I may not be making sense here. I'll have to see if this is funny tomorow. Night all.

Exactly, thank you. Only replace 'confused' with 'fed up'

[2dimes]

Again I'm really tired but I think I agree and even though I don't care enough to be "fed up" I understand if you do.

Have a good night dude.

[vtmarik]

Again I'm really tired but I think I agree and even though I don't care enough to be "fed up" I understand if you do.

Have a good night dude.

You too bro.

[jay_a2j]

Funny to watch Jay launch right into the personal attacks when I'm not here.

Shame on you Jay, shame shame shame!

You see personal attacks? Hmm odd, I don't.

[vtmarik]

*snaps fingers* I forgot. No humor. Right. I got it.

[jay_a2j]

*snaps fingers* I forgot. No humor. Right. I got it.

vtmarik, I know funny. I work with funny. I spend a lot of time with funny. You sir, are not funny.

[vtmarik]

*snaps fingers* I forgot. No humor. Right. I got it.

vtmarik, I know funny. I work with funny. I spend a lot of time with funny. You sir, are not funny.

You work with Funny? How is he? God, he left so early this morning I must've still been asleep.

Whew, what a night.

EDIT: It was either that or "Of course i'm not Funny, I'm VT"

[Truman]

No, Marik is pretty funny sometimes. Here he might not be, but I've seen some good woppers once in a while from him.

[jay_a2j]

I have revived this thread. Why? Cause its better than the ISRAEL... FOR OR AGAINST THREAD which Caleb revived!

[Caleb the Cruel]

no, I hated and still hate this thread... all the posts are far too long and i therefore do not have the will power to read them

[mightyal]

I have revived this thread. Why? Cause its better than the ISRAEL... FOR OR AGAINST THREAD which Caleb revived!

That is also an idiotic abortion of a thread. Both of them yours. Nice work sir.

[vtmarik]

I have revived this thread. Why? Cause its better than the ISRAEL... FOR OR AGAINST THREAD which Caleb revived!

Revived it with a new formation of your argument I hope.

At least have the decency to repost/revise your original statement for the newcomers around here.

I like your signature though.

[jay_a2j]

First off put aside any bias that you may have...weather it be religious or anti-religious.

Now science has said, Life cannot come from non-life. Which is common sense... a rock will never reproduce since it is not living.

Then you trace back all life to its orgin...the very first living thing.

Where did it come from?

The ONLY answer is someting or someone has always existed. And that someone or something must have the power to create (or reproduce).

There must be a God.

Science also dictates evolution could never have happened (but lets save that for a later thread).

[heavycola]

Science also dictates evolution could never have happened

Setting aside the staggering ignorance displayed in the rest of jay's initial post...

Anyone who has managed to persuade himself that this quote is in any way connected to reality could believe anything, and probably does. Debate is pointless. Might as well argue with a goldfish.

One day i will learn this lesson for myself.

[slash1890]

You're such a hypocrite. Who created god, again?

[jay_a2j]

You're such a hypocrite. Who created god, again?

God has always existed. He is eternal.