Continuation of Christianity debate.

[Juan_Bottom]

Your arguements are just like Alpine beer.

BOTTOM OF THE BARREL!

And yours like old champagne - flat.

A matter of fact, I do like budweiser.

How'd you know?

By your location.

[Gregrios]

Your arguements are just like Alpine beer.

BOTTOM OF THE BARREL!

And yours like old champagne - flat.

A matter of fact, I do like budweiser.

How'd you know?

By your location.

Good point.

[The Saxby]

Personally, it's not Jesus I dislike; it's his fan club I can't stand.

That's not stereotypical!

Atheists!



-irony intended-

Thank you, I try.

Also, I'm not an Atheist, so the intended irony has little effect on me.

[protectedbygold]

I never said Atheism didn't rely on any faith. I said Christianity relies exclusivly on faith.

You never said those exact words, true. However you are saying that Christianity relies exclusively on faith which is not true. There are many people, events, and places listed in the Bible which archaeology has shown did in fact exist. Is it completely accurate, probably not. Neither belief relies exclusively on faith. There are a combination of things which people use to form their worldview.

And I don't have to prove to you that there is no god. It seems silly, especially since you yourself said that there is no evidence for a god. Isn't that enough for you?

I don't have enough evidence either way. You seem to be bothered by the mere possibility that god might exist. Your claim is no more absolute than any other but your writing reflects that you believe your way is the only one. I don't know, personally and so therefore I tend not to believe.

Again, it goes back to the Invisible Flying Spagetti Monster. I can say that there is one flying over your head right now, shootin' meatballs out of his ass, and you can't prove otherwise. Would you even like to try?

Nobody has ever credibly claimed that such a creature was responsible for the intricate design of our universe. You're comparing apples and oranges in quite an illogical way. People that claim there is a god point to the complexity of our universe as if it was designed. It's not a terribly good argument but then again it does give a sensible person a reason to at least pause and ponder.

I'm pretty sure that a thousand years ago your argumant would be the exact opposite.. Something like.....
'God is everywhere who do you suppose makes the wind blow?' Given enough time has become 'you can't prove me wrong, because it's intangible.'
Why would an all-powerful god ever need to be intangible? You asked this same question.

Are you trying to make a serious point?

You can return to spreading your conspiracy theories now.

Is this supposed to be a straight insult? Seems counter-productive.

I've read your posts and Jay_a2j. Both of you are rather nuts in my opinion. One of you is a Christian and the other an atheist. I guess crazies come from both camps.

To others who have been responding to my posts (CrazyAnglican, muythaiguy, herndawg, tzor, etc.), thank you and I will take the time to read them all.

[MeDeFe]

I never said Atheism didn't rely on any faith. I said Christianity relies exclusivly on faith.

You never said those exact words, true. However you are saying that Christianity relies exclusively on faith which is not true. There are many people, events, and places listed in the Bible which archaeology has shown did in fact exist. Is it completely accurate, probably not. Neither belief relies exclusively on faith. There are a combination of things which people use to form their worldview.

There are probably thousands of works of fiction that all contain references to real persons, places or events. In fact I finished reading one such novel only 2 weeks ago, Där vi en gång gått by Kjell Westö. Lots of references to real persons, places and events, that doesn't mean I take it as the ultimate truth, though.

[Gregrios]

I never said Atheism didn't rely on any faith. I said Christianity relies exclusivly on faith.

You never said those exact words, true. However you are saying that Christianity relies exclusively on faith which is not true. There are many people, events, and places listed in the Bible which archaeology has shown did in fact exist. Is it completely accurate, probably not. Neither belief relies exclusively on faith. There are a combination of things which people use to form their worldview.

There are probably thousands of works of fiction that all contain references to real persons, places or events. In fact I finished reading one such novel only 2 weeks ago, Där vi en gång gått by Kjell Westö. Lots of references to real persons, places and events, that doesn't mean I take it as the ultimate truth, though.

This statement reminds me of ....

THE FORGOTTEN ART OF MAKING SENSE!

You should look into it.

[MeDeFe]

I never said Atheism didn't rely on any faith. I said Christianity relies exclusivly on faith.

You never said those exact words, true. However you are saying that Christianity relies exclusively on faith which is not true. There are many people, events, and places listed in the Bible which archaeology has shown did in fact exist. Is it completely accurate, probably not. Neither belief relies exclusively on faith. There are a combination of things which people use to form their worldview.

There are probably thousands of works of fiction that all contain references to real persons, places or events. In fact I finished reading one such novel only 2 weeks ago, Där vi en gång gått by Kjell Westö. Lots of references to real persons, places and events, that doesn't mean I take it as the ultimate truth, though.

This statement reminds me of ....

THE FORGOTTEN ART OF MAKING SENSE!

You should look into it.

"Making sense" as in "this guy was verified as dead and is up and about again, and somehow walking up into the air "ascending" into heaven? Nah, I think someone made that part up"

[Gregrios]

I never said Atheism didn't rely on any faith. I said Christianity relies exclusivly on faith.

You never said those exact words, true. However you are saying that Christianity relies exclusively on faith which is not true. There are many people, events, and places listed in the Bible which archaeology has shown did in fact exist. Is it completely accurate, probably not. Neither belief relies exclusively on faith. There are a combination of things which people use to form their worldview.

There are probably thousands of works of fiction that all contain references to real persons, places or events. In fact I finished reading one such novel only 2 weeks ago, Där vi en gång gått by Kjell Westö. Lots of references to real persons, places and events, that doesn't mean I take it as the ultimate truth, though.

This statement reminds me of ....

THE FORGOTTEN ART OF MAKING SENSE!

You should look into it.

"Making sense" as in "this guy was verified as dead and is up and about again, and somehow walking up into the air "ascending" into heaven? Nah, I think someone made that part up"

You're welcome to your own opinion. That I can deal with but can you?

[protectedbygold]

There are probably thousands of works of fiction that all contain references to real persons, places or events. In fact I finished reading one such novel only 2 weeks ago, Där vi en gång gått by Kjell Westö. Lots of references to real persons, places and events, that doesn't mean I take it as the ultimate truth, though.

The difference is that the Bible makes the claim that it is true. The books you're talking about do not make that claim. Other religious books also claim to have the truth. It's illogical to compare a work of fiction to a religious book because fiction books are in fact presented as fiction. Religious books are not presented as fiction, they are simply ridiculed as such by non-believers.

[MeDeFe]

There are probably thousands of works of fiction that all contain references to real persons, places or events. In fact I finished reading one such novel only 2 weeks ago, Där vi en gång gått by Kjell Westö. Lots of references to real persons, places and events, that doesn't mean I take it as the ultimate truth, though.

The difference is that the Bible makes the claim that it is true. The books you're talking about do not make that claim. Other religious books also claim to have the truth. It's illogical to compare a work of fiction to a religious book because fiction books are in fact presented as fiction. Religious books are not presented as fiction, they are simply ridiculed as such by non-believers.

According to this line of reasoning, if an actual work of fiction should, either by chance or design, come to be presented in the same way as a religious book, it would be illogical to compare it to other works of fiction because it is now presented differently.

I don't think you've convinced me yet.

[protectedbygold]

According to this line of reasoning, if an actual work of fiction should, either by chance or design, come to be presented in the same way as a religious book, it would be illogical to compare it to other works of fiction because it is now presented differently.

I don't think you've convinced me yet.

First of all you make the mistake of thinking I'm trying to convince you of anything. I'm merely pointing out what I think on the subject. I remember you now from the Congratulations to the Netherlands thread and know that you are just being argumentative.

I'll make this final point though before ignoring you from now on - Religious books are presented as truth. That is a major difference from a work of fiction intentionally being presented as fiction. Anyone can criticize a religious book and point out its flaws. I think there are probably many. To answer the question 'would it be illogical to compare other works of fiction to religious books because of the way they are presented' - the answer would be yes.

[Juan_Bottom]

There are probably thousands of works of fiction that all contain references to real persons, places or events. In fact I finished reading one such novel only 2 weeks ago, Där vi en gång gått by Kjell Westö. Lots of references to real persons, places and events, that doesn't mean I take it as the ultimate truth, though.

The difference is that the Bible makes the claim that it is true. The books you're talking about do not make that claim. Other religious books also claim to have the truth. It's illogical to compare a work of fiction to a religious book because fiction books are in fact presented as fiction. Religious books are not presented as fiction, they are simply ridiculed as such by non-believers.

According to this line of reasoning, if an actual work of fiction should, either by chance or design, come to be presented in the same way as a religious book, it would be illogical to compare it to other works of fiction because it is now presented differently.

I don't think you've convinced me yet.

I agree. By this logic we must still believe that Posiedon still rules the seas.

[silvanricky]

Go in and clean it myself? How would she learn to keep her life in order that way? Let her know that I was there and watching and to establish clear consequences for not meeting my expectations? That's the one. She was learning responsibility and in order to help her do that I had to be as "hands off" as possible, without abandoning her to her own whims.

In this way, I think that evil exists in the world. Whether you believe in tempting spirits or not I think that most true evil is a product of man's direct actions or inactions. I also think that God is nearby, Like the good father he is, giving guidance and help but letting us grow to become better people.

I like the way you present things Crazy A. If I was ever to become a Christian I think your version or Daddy1Gringo's would be the one I'd accept.

I have seen 3 different legs grow out, arms healed, my daughter has been healed from a skin disorder and food reactions. My wife was healed of shin splints, my sons knee. Two testimonies of healing happened today at my church. Real stuff. This one lady had two MRI's done to confirm it. Miracles and things that Jesus did and said we would do more of happen everyday and people are very blind to it and don't seem to seek it much because they care more about whatever else. Seek and you will find. The dead are being raised today, in our time, in our box. Cancer is cast out, deaf ears opened, blind eyes see. People are set free from drugs, addictions, past experiences. My God is the God of creation and still speaks to his people. There is a reality beyond what many think and hold on to. There is a king coming to rule. It all seems crazy because of the times we live in and the unbelief that has spread like cancer.
My faith has increased by witnessing the supernatural, we were created supernatural and are obsessed with it weather it be of God or made up fiction stuff. Jesus is for real and holds the keys of hades. He is not just a lamb, there is a lion coming and he looks a lot different from the Jesus we think we know. I don't usually write in these forums because arguing isn't too much fun and just wanted to point out that God is alive today in many Christians.

You however can just stay away from me

[rocky mountain]

hey, did anyone see this???

I tend to think there isn't or he would make it so obvious that there would be no choice but to believe.

if we have no choice but believe, then we don't have free will. he gave us free will to choose what we want. also, he wants us to have faith. if he out right comes and shows himself to us, then we don't need faith to believe that he is real, and its not the same relationship that he wants with us.
by the way, there is proof of the bible. there is evidence for the red sea crossing, Sodom and Gommorah, Mt. Sinai, and a couple other things.
evolution is false. they say we are becoming improved and bigger, and smarter. there are human skeletons 9 feet tall found all over the world. we may be becoming smarter in some aspects, but in everything. if we evolved from apes, how come there are still apes around? aren't they supposed to die off?
i could go into more, but i have to get off for the day.

[Juan_Bottom]

Juan_Bottom wrote:
I never said Atheism didn't rely on any faith. I said Christianity relies exclusivly on faith.

You never said those exact words, true. However you are saying that Christianity relies exclusively on faith which is not true. There are many people, events, and places listed in the Bible which archaeology has shown did in fact exist. Is it completely accurate, probably not. Neither belief relies exclusively on faith. There are a combination of things which people use to form their worldview.

Ah! I did say that the evidence Christians do have is only accepted as evidence by Christians. Yes, a man named Jesus did live. But I don't believe that he walked on water. This is what I ment by calling the Bible a mixture of legend, and fairytale. And this is why again it all boils down to faith. Because you can't prove any of it save locations and names. It's kinda like a big "I heard it from a guy whos best friends second cousins half sister saw it!" story(to put it niavely).

Juan_Bottom wrote:
And I don't have to prove to you that there is no god. It seems silly, especially since you yourself said that there is no evidence for a god. Isn't that enough for you?

I don't have enough evidence either way. You seem to be bothered by the mere possibility that god might exist. Your claim is no more absolute than any other but your writing reflects that you believe your way is the only one. I don't know, personally and so therefore I tend not to believe.

Ah! You kinda got me here. What really bothers me, is that there really is nothing real to support any religion, save faith. People believe for(what I would call) absolutly no reason. And most, admit that it is all about faith. It's crazy to me! It's not that I am bothered by a hypothetical god existing; I am only bothered when someone takes it as an absolute truth, with no proof.
And again, If someone would like to try to explain it to me, I won't even reply back. I just would like to give this faith a platform, without attacking it in any way. To hear you out.

And as far as the evidence goes, I think that it all leans my way. That's why I can't accept that anyone could draw the opposite conclusion.

Juan_Bottom wrote:
Again, it goes back to the Invisible Flying Spagetti Monster. I can say that there is one flying over your head right now, shootin' meatballs out of his ass, and you can't prove otherwise. Would you even like to try?

Nobody has ever credibly claimed that such a creature was responsible for the intricate design of our universe. You're comparing apples and oranges in quite an illogical way. People that claim there is a god point to the complexity of our universe as if it was designed. It's not a terribly good argument but then again it does give a sensible person a reason to at least pause and ponder.

No one is credibly claiming that a god created earth, or anything.
I was mearly pointing out the falicy of believing in something just because you can't prove it untrue. And you can't prove the Spagetti Monster to be untrue. And I don't see so much the complexity as much as I do the randomness. But I will concede that another person absolutely could disagree. And on that point, I will agree to disagree.

Juan_Bottom wrote:
I'm pretty sure that a thousand years ago your argumant would be the exact opposite.. Something like.....
'God is everywhere who do you suppose makes the wind blow?' Given enough time has become 'you can't prove me wrong, because it's intangible.'
Why would an all-powerful god ever need to be intangible? You asked this same question.

Are you trying to make a serious point?

Not serious enough to care about! I though I was more or less agreeing with you.

protectedbygold wrote:
You can return to spreading your conspiracy theories now.

Is this supposed to be a straight insult? Seems counter-productive.

I've read your posts and Jay_a2j. Both of you are rather nuts in my opinion. One of you is a Christian and the other an atheist. I guess crazies come from both camps.

I don't know where you think the crazy came from, but I post links when asked, do you follow them? The only conspiracies I have ever debate here were 911 and the Amero. And I think I did a decent job with both. And I am rarely insulting, unless I feel I have been wronged. Feel free to challenge anything I say, but please be objective also.

And yes, I do stick up for Jay. But he is always outnumbered and yet continues standing up for what he believes in. And I often feel that there is a grain of truth to what he has to say(though we have our disagreements). I guess I respect that and help out when I can. But! He also exclusivly stands up for what he believes in, whereas you are not. He's a Christian, but he's a friend too. And you also are rather nuts in my opinion.

[Juan_Bottom]

hey, did anyone see this???

I tend to think there isn't or he would make it so obvious that there would be no choice but to believe.

if we have no choice but believe, then we don't have free will. he gave us free will to choose what we want. also, he wants us to have faith. if he out right comes and shows himself to us, then we don't need faith to believe that he is real, and its not the same relationship that he wants with us.
by the way, there is proof of the bible. there is evidence for the red sea crossing, Sodom and Gommorah, Mt. Sinai, and a couple other things.
evolution is false. they say we are becoming improved and bigger, and smarter. there are human skeletons 9 feet tall found all over the world. we may be becoming smarter in some aspects, but in everything. if we evolved from apes, how come there are still apes around? aren't they supposed to die off?
i could go into more, but i have to get off for the day.

LOL

Thanks, ROCKYMOUNTAIN, I did miss that.

Dude called me crazy.

[naxus]

The whole point of religion is faith in something you cant see, hear, touch, feel, or have proof of.

Thank-you too. That's kinda what I'm sayin'.

But how do you do it? How do you keep on believeing, even after admitting something like this to yourself? You practically said that religion is a trick.
I wouldn't mind your best explination, if i'm honest with you though, I probably won't understand. But! I will try to "get it."

Well to tell you the truth i think that christianity is a joke as one god couldnt do all that.Im actually norse as that works and makes more sense to me

[Frigidus]

Im actually norse

We've missed you man, would have thought you'd have done something more lulzy, but it works.

[Backglass]

The dead are being raised today, in our time, in our box. Cancer is cast out, deaf ears opened, blind eyes see.

If any of these miracles were actually true, it would be easy to verify scientifically, wouldn't you agree? Why have none of these "miracles" been proven? It sure would tell the whole world that your imaginary friends exist wouldn't it? Dead rising? Truly blind people suddenly seeing 20/20?

It should be very easy to prove yet the people witnessing the "miracles" never seem to want them publicized or investigated and the people making the claims always seem to have gray areas regarding the actual illness.

Why is that? Because it''s deluded, superstitious BS thats why.

[naxus]

The dead are being raised today, in our time, in our box. Cancer is cast out, deaf ears opened, blind eyes see.

If any of these miracles were actually true, it would be easy to verify scientifically, wouldn't you agree? Why have none of these "miracles" been proven? It sure would tell the whole world that your imaginary friends exist wouldn't it? Dead rising? Truly blind people suddenly seeing 20/20?

It should be very easy to prove yet the people witnessing the "miracles" never seem to want them publicized or investigated and the people making the claims always seem to have gray areas regarding the actual illness.

Why is that? Because it''s deluded, superstitious BS thats why.

Which is why norse works cause we dont have any BS like that

[Gregrios]

Blackglass quote:
Why is that? Because it''s deluded, superstitious BS thats why. [/quote]





No. It's cause of bone-headed statements like this.

[Mr_Adams]

The dead are being raised today, in our time, in our box. Cancer is cast out, deaf ears opened, blind eyes see.

If any of these miracles were actually true, it would be easy to verify scientifically, wouldn't you agree? Why have none of these "miracles" been proven? It sure would tell the whole world that your imaginary friends exist wouldn't it? Dead rising? Truly blind people suddenly seeing 20/20?

It should be very easy to prove yet the people witnessing the "miracles" never seem to want them publicized or investigated and the people making the claims always seem to have gray areas regarding the actual illness.

Why is that? Because it''s deluded, superstitious BS thats why.

If you believe in this stuff. I personaly believe these power's died with the diciples, and people are trying toreenact these things for personal gain.

[rocky mountain]

Well to tell you the truth i think that christianity is a joke as one god couldnt do all that.

but he's GOD!!!!!! he is an all powerful being and is fully capable of doing everything you think he can't do. he's God!!! thats why we can't comprehend and understand everything about him.

[jonesthecurl]

Why do you assume that God is male?
Did Adam have a belly button?
What colour were Adam and Eve?
Did Noah have freshwater fish on the ark?
Termites?
Has God made intelligent life on other planets?
Do those planets have their own Jesus? (OR does He have to do that stuff over and over again?)

Some serious questions, some a little mocking, all worthy of an answer.

[jay_a2j]

Why do you assume that God is male?
Did Adam have a belly button?
What colour were Adam and Eve?
Did Noah have freshwater fish on the ark?
Termites?
Has God made intelligent life on other planets?
Do those planets have their own Jesus? (OR does He have to do that stuff over and over again?)

Some serious questions, some a little mocking, all worthy of an answer.

God created man in "his" own image.
Don't know, probably not.
Don't know
Don't know
Yes, in a glass jar.
No
Silly man......