A question for the religious

[InkL0sed]

Oh, how quickly this degenerated into name-calling... I thought I'd be able to get at least 3 pages before we got to this point.

What?!Why did you think that?

I'm naive and I still think people don't use the Internet to troll...

[MeDeFe]

Isn't mtg that anomalous guy, the atheist (the following is really hard to write for me because I'm opposed to dividing the political and economic spectrum into fewer than 15 positions and the word has come to imply a binary political spectrum, but I'll do it nevertheless) "conservative".

[CrazyAnglican]

As an atheist, we consider all Christians to be "bratty little snobs" because they are Christians. It is inherent in your belief system (as well as many others).

Do you really believe that? Every Christian is a bratty little snob because he's/she's a Christian.

[THORNHEART]

EVEN IF YOU WERE A GOOD PERSON LIKE U SAID U WOULD STILL HAVE TO GO TO HELL BECAUSE U WOULD BE COUNTING ON YOUR OWN WORKS TO SAVE YOU AND SECURE YOURSELF ETERNAL LIFE. YOU NEED TO BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST AND TRUST HIM AND HIS POWER TO SAVE YOU AND BRING YOU TO HEAVEN. HUMANS CAN NEVER BE GOOD ENOUGH

[jonesthecurl]

If you'da used lower case it wouldn't have been so convincing.

[InkL0sed]

EVEN IF YOU WERE A GOOD PERSON LIKE U SAID U WOULD STILL HAVE TO GO TO HELL BECAUSE U WOULD BE COUNTING ON YOUR OWN WORKS TO SAVE YOU AND SECURE YOURSELF ETERNAL LIFE. YOU NEED TO BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST AND TRUST HIM AND HIS POWER TO SAVE YOU AND BRING YOU TO HEAVEN. HUMANS CAN NEVER BE GOOD ENOUGH

Ah.

[Haggis_McMutton]

EVEN IF YOU WERE A GOOD PERSON LIKE U SAID U WOULD STILL HAVE TO GO TO HELL BECAUSE U WOULD BE COUNTING ON YOUR OWN WORKS TO SAVE YOU AND SECURE YOURSELF ETERNAL LIFE. YOU NEED TO BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST AND TRUST HIM AND HIS POWER TO SAVE YOU AND BRING YOU TO HEAVEN. HUMANS CAN NEVER BE GOOD ENOUGH

[Gregrios]

Oh, how quickly this degenerated into name-calling... I thought I'd be able to get at least 3 pages before we got to this point. I blame Gregrios.

WHAT! What did I do?

[InkL0sed]

Oh, how quickly this degenerated into name-calling... I thought I'd be able to get at least 3 pages before we got to this point. I blame Gregrios.

WHAT! What did I do?

You came. You saw. You ruined my thread. Bastard.

[Gregrios]

Oh, how quickly this degenerated into name-calling... I thought I'd be able to get at least 3 pages before we got to this point. I blame Gregrios.

WHAT! What did I do?

You came. You saw. You ruined my thread. Bastard.

I think I added some well needed spunk to this thread if anything.

[PLAYER57832]

If I was an incredibly good person (ie. I loved absolutely everybody, always helped them out, good to my neighbors, gave to charity, etc etc), but I simply didn't believe in God - would you consider me damned to Hell? Or would I be accepted to the Pearly Gates anyway?

You have to specify the religion.

In Christianity, the orthodox view is that you are saved through belief in Christ. Good people who do not believe are not saved, "bad" ones are. But those who follow God's edicts have better lives than if they did not (though NOT necessarily better than any particular sinner).

Most say that somewhere, somehow everyone will be given the chance to hear "the truth" and either commit or not.

Some even believe that other religions might possibly be somehow "Christian", by another name, or that God speaks to different cultures in different ways, but those last 2 beliefs are generally considered heretical by most Christian churches. (Not to be confused with true Christian churches that go "underground' and pretend to be something else publicly for safety reasons)

But PLAYER - what do you you think?

I have pretty well answered this in other threads, I believe, but I believe that no one is randomly condemned, that everyone has a chance at redemption. BUT, I also think concentrating on the "afterlife" is to miss a big part of the equation, because a lot of Christianity, at least modern Christianity is about living today, in this world. That was not always the case, is not everywhere. In some places, life is truly horrible. Then, thinking of heavan may give people great solace. BUT, no matter how harch your life, not matter how much you feel persecuted or condemned by acting within God's laws, I believe that the consequences on earth are less if you follow the "rules" than if you don't. Unfortunately, I also belief many people greatly misinterpret the rules.

[Neoteny]

As an atheist, we consider all Christians to be "bratty little snobs" because they are Christians. It is inherent in your belief system (as well as many others).

Do you really believe that? Every Christian is a bratty little snob because he's/she's a Christian.

Pretty much, because nearly every one of you is sure you are going to heaven, and I'm not. If it makes you feel any better, other religions are included in that as well. As well meaning as any one Christian may be, there's always that halo hovering over their head.

[Gregrios]

As an atheist, we consider all Christians to be "bratty little snobs" because they are Christians. It is inherent in your belief system (as well as many others).

Do you really believe that? Every Christian is a bratty little snob because he's/she's a Christian.

Pretty much, because nearly every one of you is sure you are going to heaven, and I'm not. If it makes you feel any better, other religions are included in that as well. As well meaning as any one Christian may be, there's always that halo hovering over their head.

These notions are not our opinions. We are simply relaying a message from our creator. Everyone does have a chance to go to Heaven but they've got to make the required changes in their life.

Accept God and sincerely try to live by his teachings. God really doesn't ask that much of us and still offers us a great reward.

[CrazyAnglican]

As an atheist, we consider all Christians to be "bratty little snobs" because they are Christians. It is inherent in your belief system (as well as many others).

Do you really believe that? Every Christian is a bratty little snob because he's/she's a Christian.

Pretty much, because nearly every one of you is sure you are going to heaven, and I'm not. If it makes you feel any better, other religions are included in that as well. As well meaning as any one Christian may be, there's always that halo hovering over their head.

You have been reading the thread though haven't you? Only three Christians (two atheists posted "No" responses) think that atheists are definitely going to Hell. They also reiterate that it isn't their own works that get them in. They aren't deserving of it, but are glad that it is offered none-the-less.
Those folks (that believe only Christians can get into Heaven) I assume base that opinion on the scripture that says "I am the way, the truth and the light, and no one gets to the father but through me." It could be interpreted that only Christians go to heaven, but it's far from conclusive. For instance, How do you define Christ's assistance and mediation? Does it mean that you profess faith in him or does it mean that you live by his edicts and example? So, generally most people stick with "I don't know, but I do believe that following Christ's word gives me the best chance". While I've no doubt that you have met a few Christian jerks, is that really a good reason to hold such a prejudice against the 2 billion or so of us on the Earth?

Think about what you've said

As well meaning as any one Christian may be, there's always that halo hovering over their head.

That is pretty much negating any good that comes from any Christian based on a superiority that you assume is there, but is really more of a preconceieved notion on your part.


And sorry Inklosed,

Basically I think that while it's easier to accept Christ, It is probably also possible to follow other religions or philosophies and achieve the same result.

[muy_thaiguy]

Isn't mtg that anomalous guy, the atheist (the following is really hard to write for me because I'm opposed to dividing the political and economic spectrum into fewer than 15 positions and the word has come to imply a binary political spectrum, but I'll do it nevertheless) "conservative".

No, I'm a Roman Catholic Conservative.

[joecoolfrog]

As an atheist, we consider all Christians to be "bratty little snobs" because they are Christians. It is inherent in your belief system (as well as many others).

Do you really believe that? Every Christian is a bratty little snob because he's/she's a Christian.

Pretty much, because nearly every one of you is sure you are going to heaven, and I'm not. If it makes you feel any better, other religions are included in that as well. As well meaning as any one Christian may be, there's always that halo hovering over their head.

You have been reading the thread though haven't you? Only three Christians (two atheists posted "No" responses) think that atheists are definitely going to Hell. They also reiterate that it isn't their own works that get them in. They aren't deserving of it, but are glad that it is offered none-the-less.
Those folks (that believe only Christians can get into Heaven) I assume base that opinion on the scripture that says "I am the way, the truth and the light, and no one gets to the father but through me." It could be interpreted that only Christians go to heaven, but it's far from conclusive. For instance, How do you define Christ's assistance and mediation? Does it mean that you profess faith in him or does it mean that you live by his edicts and example? So, generally most people stick with "I don't know, but I do believe that following Christ's word gives me the best chance". While I've no doubt that you have met a few Christian jerks, is that really a good reason to hold such a prejudice against the 2 billion or so of us on the Earth?

Think about what you've said

As well meaning as any one Christian may be, there's always that halo hovering over their head.

That is pretty much negating any good that comes from any Christian based on a superiority that you assume is there, but is really more of a preconceieved notion on your part.


And sorry Inklosed,

Basically I think that while it's easier to accept Christ, It is probably also possible to follow other religions or philosophies and achieve the same result.

Speaking for myself ( though im sure others agree ) you I consider an inteligent guy who seems to have reconcilled very well a strong personal faith with the practicalities of modern life and ongoing scientific discovery,player is another good example. Actually the 2 of you represent the vast majority of Christians who unfortunately tend to get drowned out by those with rather more extreme views, it is this vocal and unrepresentative group who atheists tend to despise. Because their evangelical zeal prohibits them from leaving others to believe as they wish they tend to be very much in ones face, this pisses us off and we react accordingly. In more general terms I consider their use of homeschooling to brainwash kids to be repugnant, depriving children of a balanced education purely to further an agenda amounts in my book to abuse.

[CrazyAnglican]

Speaking for myself ( though im sure others agree ) you I consider an inteligent guy who seems to have reconcilled very well a strong personal faith with the practicalities of modern life and ongoing scientific discovery,player is another good example.

Thanks, and I think you're a smart guy as well.

Actually the 2 of you represent the vast majority of Christians who unfortunately tend to get drowned out by those with rather more extreme views, it is this vocal and unrepresentative group who atheists tend to despise. Because their evangelical zeal prohibits them from leaving others to believe as they wish they tend to be very much in ones face, this pisses us off and we react accordingly.

Perhaps you should be more specific in your diction? If you mean the minority of Evangelical nutjobs then perhaps that would be a better term. You could even employ the acronym MEN the ladies would love it.

In more general terms I consider their use of homeschooling to brainwash kids to be repugnant, depriving children of a balanced education purely to further an agenda amounts in my book to abuse.

As an educator, I tend to find that Momma's are among the best teachers. My own nephew was homeschooled for a year. He left public school failing everything and came back to school (one year later) two schoolyears ahead. How many of these deprived children have you met? Many Christian private schools are also very good. My kids go to one. I would not have them there if I thought they were getting anything less than an exemplary education.

[muy_thaiguy]

In more general terms I consider their use of homeschooling to brainwash kids to be repugnant, depriving children of a balanced education purely to further an agenda amounts in my book to abuse.

As an educator, I tend to find that Momma's are among the best teachers. My own nephew was homeschooled for a year. He left public school failing everything and came back to school (one year later) two schoolyears ahead. How many of these deprived children have you met? Many Christian private schools are also very good. My kids go to one. I would not have them there if I thought they were getting anything less than an exemplary education.[/quote]
I myself went to a private Catholic School during elementary. When I got to the Junior High, I was far, FAR ahead of most of my classmates (350 or so) in reading and writing. Math and science though have always been weaknesses of mine though. I don't believe I was abused, brainwashed, or received an "unbalanced' education. I also know many people thqt were home schooled during elementary school, and ended up in the advanced classes, even in science. So joe, not quite sure where you're trying to go with that.

[InkL0sed]

MTG, private school is not home schooling. At all.

[muy_thaiguy]

MTG, private school is not home schooling. At all.

I was merely going off of what CA wrote.

[CrazyAnglican]

MTG, private school is not home schooling. At all.

No, it isn't, but I think it still applies as it could be seen as having the same implication of indoctrination that Joe mentioned with homeschooling. Joe's statement seemed to conjure up an image for me of kids being brought up in isolation which is far from the reality of homeschooling. These kids tend to get together just the same as any other ones. A friend from my church (who incidently adopted a family of five kids so that they wouldn't be separated) home schooled her eldest and he went to graduate with kids from as far away as New Zealand. He holds a job, has a girlfriend, and is a very nice kid. She and her husband saved those kids from abuse rather than inflicting it.

[Neoteny]

As an atheist, we consider all Christians to be "bratty little snobs" because they are Christians. It is inherent in your belief system (as well as many others).

Do you really believe that? Every Christian is a bratty little snob because he's/she's a Christian.

Pretty much, because nearly every one of you is sure you are going to heaven, and I'm not. If it makes you feel any better, other religions are included in that as well. As well meaning as any one Christian may be, there's always that halo hovering over their head.

You have been reading the thread though haven't you? Only three Christians (two atheists posted "No" responses) think that atheists are definitely going to Hell. They also reiterate that it isn't their own works that get them in. They aren't deserving of it, but are glad that it is offered none-the-less.
Those folks (that believe only Christians can get into Heaven) I assume base that opinion on the scripture that says "I am the way, the truth and the light, and no one gets to the father but through me." It could be interpreted that only Christians go to heaven, but it's far from conclusive. For instance, How do you define Christ's assistance and mediation? Does it mean that you profess faith in him or does it mean that you live by his edicts and example? So, generally most people stick with "I don't know, but I do believe that following Christ's word gives me the best chance". While I've no doubt that you have met a few Christian jerks, is that really a good reason to hold such a prejudice against the 2 billion or so of us on the Earth?

Think about what you've said

As well meaning as any one Christian may be, there's always that halo hovering over their head.

That is pretty much negating any good that comes from any Christian based on a superiority that you assume is there, but is really more of a preconceieved notion on your part.


And sorry Inklosed,

Basically I think that while it's easier to accept Christ, It is probably also possible to follow other religions or philosophies and achieve the same result.

I did, in my state of minor irritation, overstate how many people were of that opinion. A recent poll I saw was something like the high thirties for it. Additionally, it's the dominant opinion of people I've met in my life that I'm going to hell for my atheism, so I'll give you that it's anecdotal to that extent. However, that opinion is also due to my own reading of the bible, and it seems to be a reasonable interpretation of it. Geez, what's the point of calling yourself a Christian if it doesn't help your cause for anything. It comes across as a rather weak evidence for the veracity of the tenets. "Eh, you can get away with other things if you want." Whatever, man, that's all you. If you're going to claim the religion, claim it all and lump yourself in with the fundamentalists. If you're going to try to be reasonable about it, be reasonable about all of it.

As for the schooling, I'll say that depends on a lot of factors. I was ahead of my peers through grade 7, when i moved to Hawaii (which has a notoriously bad school system, for good reason). I was ahead of all my Hawaiian peers as well, but when I moved back to the mainland and attended a liberal arts magnet school, I had a bit of catching up to do. There are good teachers and poor teachers in both systems, just as there are good students and poor students. However, I will surely take the chances with my children in the hands of accredited, state-trained individuals. It seems that your odds of getting a teacher deficient in any one field increase with home-schooling. I, for example, would be a terrible history teacher, but my kids would probably be a bit more advanced in their science education. I don't think that's fair at all to them, so I'd prefer they were at a school where they can get more of everything and just complement that education with my own input.

[PLAYER57832]

MTG, private school is not home schooling. At all.

No, it isn't, but I think it still applies as it could be seen as having the same implication of indoctrination that Joe mentioned with homeschooling. Joe's statement seemed to conjure up an image for me of kids being brought up in isolation which is far from the reality of homeschooling. These kids tend to get together just the same as any other ones. A friend from my church (who incidently adopted a family of five kids so that they wouldn't be separated) home schooled her eldest and he went to graduate with kids from as far away as New Zealand. He holds a job, has a girlfriend, and is a very nice kid. She and her husband saved those kids from abuse rather than inflicting it.

Well now, there are "home schoolers" and "home schoolers" ... Private schools, PRIVATE schools and private schools.

Various extremists of all shades have absolutely latched upon home schooling. In some areas, there are enough that they either have their own private school system or even have permeated the public schools system (and forced those who don't agree into home-schooling).

And a lot of private schools are plain "bastions of the elite, the wealthy" (though they do tend to let in a few of the "not so rich, etc." here and there for diversity)

BUT, you will also find quite a few who home school because their children are not suited to the local school system (maybe a bit too creative, a bit too active, etc.), because they want their kids to know MORE than the local school provides or because they have a child with unique abilities. (Tiger Woods, I believe was home-schooled). In our community we have a child who read full books at age 4 ... the local schools just could not give him what he needed. In his case, they even allow him to participate in "non-academic" classes like physical education and such so he learns to interact better with his age peers. (normally homeschoolers have access to extracurricular activities, but not necessarily classes).

[kagetora]

If I was an incredibly good person (ie. I loved absolutely everybody, always helped them out, good to my neighbors, gave to charity, etc etc), but I simply didn't believe in God - would you consider me damned to Hell? Or would I be accepted to the Pearly Gates anyway?

Ok, kinda off the current topic but...

If I was Xian: No. You have to believe in the holy spirit/God/Jesus/Bible/other Xian beliefs.

As a philosopher: No. God designed us the way we are, and therefore has no just right to send us to anywhere bad.

As an atheist: No. No such thing as heavan.

[CrazyAnglican]

I did, in my state of minor irritation, overstate how many people were of that opinion. A recent poll I saw was something like the high thirties for it.

Exactly, look you're an intelligent guy with strong convictions. Nothing wrong with that a bit. I kinda figured you were getting carried away; that's why I asked the question in the first place.

Additionally, it's the dominant opinion of people I've met in my life that I'm going to hell for my atheism, so I'll give you that it's anecdotal to that extent. However, that opinion is also due to my own reading of the bible, and it seems to be a reasonable interpretation of it.

Yeah, I imagine that's the case. I still don't see how it applies here though. I've heard very few people tell anyone that they are going to Hell, and I've been a regular in this forum for more than a year. In the JF forum Hell is rarely, if ever, mentioned it just isn't something we dwell on. My understanding of Hell has always been that it's reaching a point of selfishness that you cannot love. Basically choosing to separate yourself from God the way that a depressed person will choose to separate themselves from activities they enjoy and people they love (only to an extreme). C.S. Lewis' "The Screwtape Letters" takes an interesting tack on this if you haven't read it and have any interest.

Geez, what's the point of calling yourself a Christian if it doesn't help your cause for anything.

Good question. Altruism. Whether you believe that God exists, or not, Christ was on earth, lived his life, preached his message, and died his death with no reward. If God doesn't exist then he died, but two thousand years later we're still talking about him and his message. A carpenter from Nazareth, how many others do you know of much less have read anything about? If God exists, He was God what could he gain by coming here? What possible benefit to himself? It was all for us and our benefit. The example and the commandment is there to love others as he loved us. The pesky Christian that you think looks down on you probably actually thinks you are incredibly special and is talking to you out of concern. Anybody who is trying to threaten you should be avoided you're right, but it might help to think critically about what is being said and whether it's a threat or it's just poorly worded.

It comes across as a rather weak evidence for the veracity of the tenets. "Eh, you can get away with other things if you want."

Perhaps, but I think Tenets that have come from different cultures and times independently are more likely to be true not less likely.

Whatever, man, that's all you. If you're going to claim the religion, claim it all and lump yourself in with the fundamentalists. If you're going to try to be reasonable about it, be reasonable about all of it.

The crux, however, is this why would you want me to fit your stereotype? I would be alot easier to argue against granted, but what's the fun in that? It isn't as if there are only two options.

As for the schooling, I'll say that depends on a lot of factors. I was ahead of my peers through grade 7, when i moved to Hawaii (which has a notoriously bad school system, for good reason). I was ahead of all my Hawaiian peers as well, but when I moved back to the mainland and attended a liberal arts magnet school, I had a bit of catching up to do. There are good teachers and poor teachers in both systems, just as there are good students and poor students. However, I will surely take the chances with my children in the hands of accredited, state-trained individuals. It seems that your odds of getting a teacher deficient in any one field increase with home-schooling. I, for example, would be a terrible history teacher, but my kids would probably be a bit more advanced in their science education. I don't think that's fair at all to them, so I'd prefer they were at a school where they can get more of everything and just complement that education with my own input.

I am one of those state trained and accredited individuals. That means exactly nothing as far as this post goes though. The point was merely this. I agree wholeheartedly with you and Player. There are good and bad teachers in every system, school (public or private) and there are good and bad homeschoolers I'm sure. I am curious as to why you would think that a homeschooled child only has one teacher though. Family and friends (not to mention other parents in the homeschooler assoc.) can be of benefit. Joe's statement implied that homeschooling for religious purposes was unbalanced and (I'm assuming) neglectful in some way. I merely pointed out the success stories and people began saying how there is good and bad in all systems and approaches. I agree with this and it was what I wanted to bring the conversation around to anyway.