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Treating the Pill as Abortion.

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Treating the Pill as Abortion.

Postby Snorri1234 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:51 am

WSJ wrote:Treating the Pill as Abortion,
Draft Regulation Stirs Debate
By STEPHANIE SIMON
July 31, 2008; Page A11

Set aside the fraught question of when human life begins. The new debate: When does pregnancy begin?

The Bush Administration has ignited a furor with a proposed definition of pregnancy that has the effect of classifying some of the most widely used methods of contraception as abortion.

A draft regulation, still being revised and debated, treats most birth-control pills and intrauterine devices as abortion because they can work by preventing fertilized eggs from implanting in the uterus. The regulation considers that destroying "the life of a human being."


Many medical groups disagree. They hold that pregnancy isn't established until several days after conception, when the fertilized egg has grown to a cluster of several dozen cells and burrowed into the uterine wall. Anything that disrupts that process, in their view, is contraception.

The draft regulation, circulating within the Department of Health and Human Services, would have no immediate effect on the legality of the pill or the IUD if implemented because abortion is legal. But opponents fear it would undercut dozens of state laws designed to promote easy access to these methods of birth control, used by more than 12 million women a year.

Dozens of Congressional Democrats -- including presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama -- have signed letters of protest blistering the proposal. His Republican rival, Sen. John McCain, declined to comment.

Administration supporters say the left's concerns are overblown and very few women would have real difficulty getting birth control. Still, some on the religious right are hoping the regulation would create some obstacles.

If the draft regulation were to prompt some insurance companies to drop coverage for prescription birth control, "that would be fantastic," said Tom McClusky, a strategist with the conservative Family Research Council.

The draft could still be revised or rejected. Or the administration could enact it at any point; no congressional approval is needed. (The next president could just as easily reverse it.)

Legal challenges would likely hold up the regulation's enforcement, but even so, the religious right -- a key Republican constituency in this election season -- could claim an important victory as their views would be embedded in federal law.

The regulation's stated purpose is to improve enforcement of existing federal laws that protect some medical professionals' right to refuse to participate or assist in abortion.

In a lengthy preamble entitled "The Problem," the draft argues that state laws too often coerce health-care workers into providing services they find immoral.

Among the laws considered coercive: Requirements that emergency rooms offer rape victims the morning-after pill, insurance plans cover contraception as part of prescription-drug benefits, and pharmacists fill prescriptions for birth control. The draft regulation would weaken these laws by expanding the right of conscientious objection.

The White House said the administration "has an obligation to enforce" that right and is "exploring a number of options."

If the regulation is enacted, insurers, hospitals, HMOs and other institutions could claim that a law requiring them to dispense contraception or subsidize an IUD discriminated against their religious convictions. State and local governments would have to certify in writing that they don't practice such discrimination. Those who didn't comply could lose federal funding or be sued for damages.

The draft also extends the conscience objection to most staff members and volunteers working for health-care providers. So, for instance, an employer couldn't punish a clinic receptionist for refusing to make appointments for patients seeking birth-control pills.


"It's pernicious," said Janet Crepps, an attorney with the Center for Reproductive Rights. "A few individuals could mess up the whole system."

Barr Pharmaceuticals, which makes oral contraceptives, took issue with the idea that its products cause abortions and added that "an individual's conscience should not prevent the timely dispensing of these products."

With its expansive definitions, the draft bolsters a key goal of the religious right: to give single-cell fertilized eggs full rights by defining them as legal people -- or, as some activists put it, "the tiniest boys and girls."

As long as Roe v. Wade remains in effect and abortion remains legal, that goal can't be fully realized. But in recent years, abortion opponents have scored notable successes. For instance: Several states now define a fertilized egg as a legal person -- an "unborn child" -- for purposes of fetal homicide laws, which allow criminal prosecution when a woman miscarries as a result of an assault.

In South Dakota, abortion doctors must tell patients -- whatever their stage of pregnancy -- that they will be "terminating the life of a whole, separate, unique, living human being" with whom they have an "existing relationship." In Colorado, voters this fall will weigh a state constitutional amendment that would confer full personhood on fertilized eggs, as well as embryos and fetuses. And embryonic stem-cell research is restricted through a variety of state and federal policies.

Even if the draft is never implemented, activists on both sides consider it a potential momentum shift.

"You keep striking away and framing the issue the way you want to frame it," said David DeWolf, a law professor at Gonzaga University who has advised anti-abortion groups. "That's the political strategy."

-- John D. McKinnon, Laura Meckler and Sarah Rubenstein contributed to this article.


The f*ck?

This really is some fucked up shit. This is an attempt to wrest control of medical terminology away from the medical sciences so they can be used for political stuff. It's just so wrong and disgracefull.
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Re: Treating the Pill as Abortion.

Postby got tonkaed on Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:59 am

tldr for the moment cause im still doing serious business...

but i cant imagine that this will really move through. Ill edit the post later once i get around to reading it.
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Re: Treating the Pill as Abortion.

Postby MeDeFe on Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:04 am

Well, considering what the current USA administration has been up to it's surprising they didn't do this earlier.

In other news. Congratulations! Two boys and a girl!
With its expansive definitions, the draft bolsters a key goal of the religious right: to give single-cell fertilized eggs full rights by defining them as legal people -- or, as some activists put it, "the tiniest boys and girls."

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Re: Treating the Pill as Abortion.

Postby Juan_Bottom on Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:33 am

Sometimes... I really REALLY hate us.

Anyone listening to GCN this morning? They are talking about this, and more stuff. Amazing what is going on in this F-ed up place. Masterbate into a rag, and that's an illegal abortion.
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Re: Treating the Pill as Abortion.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:46 am

got tonkaed wrote:tldr for the moment cause im still doing serious business...

but i cant imagine that this will really move through. Ill edit the post later once i get around to reading it.

Sadly, this is part of what happens when folks let religion and not science teach about science! This idea IS ludicrous, neither backed by the Bible, nor science. HOWEVER, make no mistake, the groups putting this nonsense foward are extremely powerful.


The answer is to fight, fight, fight for real and true science education.

There is absolutely NO basis for this idea in the Bible. In fact, in several places the Bible makes it clear that this is NOT the biblical view. There is always a clear distinction between a child that is born and one yet to be in the Bible. Because, "no one knows which child will live or die". The change in our view came not from the Bible, but because science can now help us determine which children will survive and which ones have no or almost no chance of survival. I do NOT want to get into rehashing that particular debate. We covered it ad nauseum in the abortion thread. If you are interested, reread it, but be warned it got rather graphic and quite intense at times.

HOWEVER, my point is that though there is definitely debate over where you draw the line between "pre life" and "life", claiming that the initially fertilized egg has the same potential as an 7 or 8 month unborn child goes beyond any stretch of reason. The truth is that that fertilized egg has so little chance of being implanted, it is miraculous that any child is ever born. One in three actual pregnancies ... that is, after the egg has been implanted, is miscarried. Again, that is a sensitive topic already discussed, but those facts are readily available and verifiable.

It is supremely ironic that the same folks disdain science so heavily when it comes to issues such as creation, embrace it when they find it convenient. Except, never wholly. They embrace the aspects that they feel supports their ideas that conception begins life ... but ignore any and all evidence to the contrary ... bit it science OR Biblical!
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Re: Treating the Pill as Abortion.

Postby Backglass on Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:52 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:Sadly, this is part of what happens when folks let religion and not science teach about science! This idea IS ludicrous, neither backed by the Bible, nor science. HOWEVER, make no mistake, the groups putting this nonsense forward are extremely powerful.


QFT.


BTW Player...did you ever listen to the speech?
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Re: Treating the Pill as Abortion.

Postby joecoolfrog on Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:57 am

This is exactly the kind of thing that myself and PLAYER have been warning against but were called alarmist, make no mistake the increase in organised evangelical homeschooling
will many times multiply this type of action.
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Re: Treating the Pill as Abortion.

Postby Prestor Jack on Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:16 pm

while i dont have a problem with classifying a fertilized egg as a person, or that denying it the ability to thrive is a method of abortion, i dont see why it isn't a matter of personal preference. so long as we call it what it is. it's definitely denial of life, we don't need to be ignorant about it.

but summarized, if you're ok with it and can live with your decision, why the hell is it my or anyone else's business what you decide for your body and what harbors in it?
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Re: Treating the Pill as Abortion.

Postby Snorri1234 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:54 pm

Prestor Jack wrote:while i dont have a problem with classifying a fertilized egg as a person, or that denying it the ability to thrive is a method of abortion,


What??

NO!!!!!!
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Re: Treating the Pill as Abortion.

Postby Neoteny on Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:58 pm

Snorri1234 wrote:
Prestor Jack wrote:while i dont have a problem with classifying a fertilized egg as a person, or that denying it the ability to thrive is a method of abortion,


What??

NO!!!!!!


Eh, his opinions on it are better than quite a few I've seen. Perhaps his definitions can use some tweaking, but I think his intentions are notable.
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Re: Treating the Pill as Abortion.

Postby Juan_Bottom on Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:41 pm

Take a look at one.... I don't see a person.... I see cells.... It's reaching I believe, to classify that as "human being."That's how I feel.
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Re: Treating the Pill as Abortion.

Postby Ditocoaf on Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:48 pm

Some day, this will escalate the the point where a man can say, "If you don't agree to have unprotected sex with me, you're denying a baby the right to live."
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Re: Treating the Pill as Abortion.

Postby MeDeFe on Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:58 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:Take a look at one.... I don't see a person.... I see cells.... It's reaching I believe, to classify that as "human being."That's how I feel.

"Human" possibly (that's 'human' as an adjective, btw), at least genetically, but a "person", no, I don't see how you can call a cell a person.
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Re: Treating the Pill as Abortion.

Postby Ditocoaf on Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:17 pm

MeDeFe wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Take a look at one.... I don't see a person.... I see cells.... It's reaching I believe, to classify that as "human being."That's how I feel.

"Human" possibly (that's 'human' as an adjective, btw), at least genetically, but a "person", no, I don't see how you can call a cell a person.

Yeah... and if you scrape some skin off your arm, those cells will have an entire human genetic makeup... does this make a person?
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Re: Treating the Pill as Abortion.

Postby The Weird One on Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:36 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:Sometimes... I really REALLY hate us.

Anyone listening to GCN this morning? They are talking about this, and more stuff. Amazing what is going on in this F-ed up place. Masterbate into a rag, and that's an illegal abortion.

why only sometimes?
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Re: Treating the Pill as Abortion.

Postby Juan_Bottom on Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:45 pm

The Weird One wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Sometimes... I really REALLY hate us.

Anyone listening to GCN this morning? They are talking about this, and more stuff. Amazing what is going on in this F-ed up place. Masterbate into a rag, and that's an illegal abortion.

why only sometimes?


Cauze other times I stand in front of a full length mirror all day. And on those days..... It's hard to have any negative thoughts....
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Re: Treating the Pill as Abortion.

Postby jay_a2j on Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:07 pm

The difference? The pill prevents fertilization while abortion destroys a fertilized human being.
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Re: Treating the Pill as Abortion.

Postby Ditocoaf on Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:16 pm

jay_a2j wrote:The difference? The pill prevents fertilization while abortion destroys a fertilized human being.

Wow, if even jay knows that there's a difference, why doesn't our president? Though the use of "human" can be moved around... "The pill prevents a human from being fertilized, thus denying it life" is the next step... Because we don't have a good definition for what makes a Human. Science can't answer, because it's a matter of definition rather than discovery, and the Bible doesn't have an answer either. The only answers we have are those given by people, themselves, whether it's politicians or the pope... but that's all we have to go on.
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Re: Treating the Pill as Abortion.

Postby Prestor Jack on Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:22 am

Ditocoaf wrote:Yeah... and if you scrape some skin off your arm, those cells will have an entire human genetic makeup... does this make a person?

skin cells off your arm are not going to form a person. just like a single egg isn't going to form a baby by its lonesome and neither will a ration of sperm.

but joined gametes (a.k.a. the fertilized egg) is the start of a new human life. i dont see how the concept goes over heads.

broken down:
separate egg and sperm will not form a fetus. so when separate, this does not equate to human life.
sperm absorbed into an egg will want to form a fetus. when joined, this equates to human life.

doesnt change my views on abortion being the choice of the parents, but i do define this as the beginning of new life.
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Re: Treating the Pill as Abortion.

Postby Frigidus on Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:46 am

Prestor Jack wrote:
Ditocoaf wrote:Yeah... and if you scrape some skin off your arm, those cells will have an entire human genetic makeup... does this make a person?

skin cells off your arm are not going to form a person. just like a single egg isn't going to form a baby by its lonesome and neither will a ration of sperm.

but joined gametes (a.k.a. the fertilized egg) is the start of a new human life. i dont see how the concept goes over heads.

broken down:
separate egg and sperm will not form a fetus. so when separate, this does not equate to human life.
sperm absorbed into an egg will want to form a fetus. when joined, this equates to human life.

doesnt change my views on abortion being the choice of the parents, but i do define this as the beginning of new life.


But then you're saying murder is OK. I always thought that the entire idea of the abortion debate was when life started exactly, as, clearly, taking a human life is by no means allowable.
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Re: Treating the Pill as Abortion.

Postby JACKAZZTJM on Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:52 am

Ditocoaf wrote:Some day, this will escalate the the point where a man can say, "If you don't agree to have unprotected sex with me, you're denying a baby the right to live."



umm i highly doubt that.
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Re: Treating the Pill as Abortion.

Postby JACKAZZTJM on Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:56 am

The Weird One wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Sometimes... I really REALLY hate us.

Anyone listening to GCN this morning? They are talking about this, and more stuff. Amazing what is going on in this F-ed up place. Masterbate into a rag, and that's an illegal abortion.

why only sometimes?


Why do liberal americans feel its neccesary to tell people they hate their own country? Its kinda pathetic
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Re: Treating the Pill as Abortion.

Postby Ditocoaf on Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:02 am

JACKAZZTJM wrote:
Ditocoaf wrote:Some day, this will escalate the the point where a man can say, "If you don't agree to have unprotected sex with me, you're denying a baby the right to live."



umm i highly doubt that.


Yeah. If you say a fertilized egg is human, then abortion is unacceptable, because it's murder. If you say life starts when that egg develops into an independent organism, then abortion is simply choosing to not bring life into the world, just like abstaining from sex will prevent life. And since there is no definition of when your life begins, this debate will wage forever.

Of course, there are more options than just those two: I could go even further towards one extreme, and say that:

I existed from the very moment that my mother's egg and my unique sperm existed -- if my parents had decided to abstain that night, that would be murdering me. People commit murder every time they ignore God's will to "go forth and multiply," letting an egg go to waste. A woman's "special time" is reprimand from God for wasting life.

JACKAZZTJM wrote:
The Weird One wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Sometimes... I really REALLY hate us.

Anyone listening to GCN this morning? They are talking about this, and more stuff. Amazing what is going on in this F-ed up place. Masterbate into a rag, and that's an illegal abortion.

why only sometimes?


Why do liberal americans feel its neccesary to tell people they hate their own country? Its kinda pathetic

I think it's more of a "I hate our current course of action" sentiment, poorly expressed. Because if we truly hated the country, we'd be happy to see it go to sh*t. It's because we like our country, and would like to see it at it's best, that we get upset when things are off.
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Re: Treating the Pill as Abortion.

Postby Frigidus on Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:30 am

Ditocoaf wrote:
JACKAZZTJM wrote:
The Weird One wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Sometimes... I really REALLY hate us.

Anyone listening to GCN this morning? They are talking about this, and more stuff. Amazing what is going on in this F-ed up place. Masterbate into a rag, and that's an illegal abortion.

why only sometimes?


Why do liberal americans feel its neccesary to tell people they hate their own country? Its kinda pathetic

I think it's more of a "I hate our current course of action" sentiment, poorly expressed. Because if we truly hated the country, we'd be happy to see it go to sh*t. It's because we like our country, and would like to see it at it's best, that we get upset when things are off.


Quite. I don't hate America, I just hate parts of it
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Re: Treating the Pill as Abortion.

Postby Prestor Jack on Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:38 am

Frigidus wrote:But then you're saying murder is OK. I always thought that the entire idea of the abortion debate was when life started exactly, as, clearly, taking a human life is by no means allowable.

it is a pickle. that's why instead of taking responsibility for other people, i'd rather let them make their own decisions and live with them.
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