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A question for the religious

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Could a non-believer ever go to Heaven?

 
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Re: A question for the religious

Postby comic boy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:12 pm

CrazyAnglican wrote:I think I'm missing something here MeDeFe. There are jerks on both sides was my statement and I reiterated it with it's better just to think of them as jerks. I think Player agreed with me after saying to check my last sentence. So I assumed that there was a mechanics issue with it but have no earthly idea what was wrong, aside from it being part of my own inane ramblings and therefore suspect to begin with.


I think she was amused by ' there are power hungry jerks everywhere ' followed on the next line by ' it's better not to over generalise ' :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: A question for the religious

Postby CrazyAnglican on Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:39 pm

Yeah you're right though reading it that way it was pretty funny. :D

Ah, very well **robotic monotone** It is this author's opinion that human nature is such that some people will abuse power regardless of their race, sex, religion, etc, and that one should hold them personally responsible for these actions rather than whatever race, sex, religion etc. to which they may belong. **back to colloquial speech** :geek:
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Re: A question for the religious

Postby Snorri1234 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:52 pm

CrazyAnglican wrote:Yeah you're right though reading it that way it was pretty funny. :D

Ah, very well **robotic monotone** It is this author's opinion that human nature is such that some people will abuse power regardless of their race, sex, religion, etc, and that one should hold them personally responsible for these actions rather than whatever race, sex, religion etc. to which they may belong. **back to colloquial speech** :geek:


Indeed.
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Tim: Yes, one involves a lot of physical and psychological pain, and the other one's war.
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Re: A question for the religious

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:15 am

comic boy wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:I think I'm missing something here MeDeFe. There are jerks on both sides was my statement and I reiterated it with it's better just to think of them as jerks. I think Player agreed with me after saying to check my last sentence. So I assumed that there was a mechanics issue with it but have no earthly idea what was wrong, aside from it being part of my own inane ramblings and therefore suspect to begin with.


I think she was amused by ' there are power hungry jerks everywhere ' followed on the next line by ' it's better not to over generalise ' :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yes, that was my basic reasoning. And, yes, I do agree with CrazyAnglican, just found those two sentances amusing. (we all get tired ...)
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Re: A question for the religious

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:29 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Except, here you are bothered by that hatred and where is he? Oblivious. The best revenge is to live well and be happy. And, if you have not gone to College, you should .. absolutely! Some options may have been cut out, but not all .. by a long shot!


I HAVE BEEN TRYING!!! But the State's Attorney gave me an OPEN FELONY.... and then drug my trial out for three years. He did this to keep me from going to college, or getting a job(his words). An OPEN FELONY means that you have no convictions, but that you could be arrested on a felony at any time. It's a way around the whole "innocent until proven guilty." Anyway, you can't get any finacial aid if you have an OPEN FELONY.... and now I'll have to wait a year while I pay off my debts. But I am going.


Although 1/2 of the "mom" part of me really, really wants to wonder why a smart kid like you would even get into that position (I don't need to know), the other 1/2 and the "non mom" part want to assure you that the only roadblocks that are true roadblocks are those you let impede you.

If you are looking at that much of a delay, I would suggest relocating to a place where they have a good, but independent community college system and establishing residency. I will pm you a couple of options. BUT, since I don't know a lot about your "real life", it is hard to give you real advice (not that you were asking ;) ). The big thing is to not just plan, but to take action. Even taking one class will help you to keep your feet/head in academics and, if you stick to transferable general education classes, will probably help you. Also, setting aside even small amounts of money NOW will help. (yes, on top of paying those debts ... though I know it is hard)

Most of all ... STAY OUT OF TROUBLE!
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Re: A question for the religious

Postby daddy1gringo on Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:22 am

InkL0sed wrote:If I was an incredibly good person (ie. I loved absolutely everybody, always helped them out, good to my neighbors, gave to charity, etc etc), but I simply didn't believe in God - would you consider me damned to Hell? Or would I be accepted to the Pearly Gates anyway?

I just discovered this thread, and read most of it. It restored hope that the kind of discussion that could go somewhere is possible.

Let me take a shot at it. I don’t agree with the explanations that have been given so far, and to be fair, I don’t think the Christians who gave them really agreed with them either. They just feel trapped into the idea that in order NOT to say that people are going to hell who have not had a fair chance, they have to compromise on the belief that Jesus is “the way, the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through me.”

I can sum it up by saying that anyone who gets to heaven, it is because of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross… whether they know it or not.

No, you can’t earn your way to heaven by being a good Buddhist or Muslim, or Existentialist. You also can’t earn your way to heaven by being a good Christian. Here’s an analogy that I have used before on why the Cross was necessary.

daddy1gringo wrote:A girl, a college student, is in traffic court for a speeding ticket. She is pronounced guilty and has to pay a $250 fine. Then something unusual happens. The judge stands up, removes his robe, (don't worry, he has a suit underneath) walks to the clerk and pays the fine. Then he resumes the bench and the robe. You see, the judge is her father. As her father, he knows that his college-student daughter can't afford the fine, and knowing her, he believes that she really won't do it again, so as her father, he has decided, that she should not pay the fine. But as a judge, he would be corrupt if he just let her off because she was his daughter. The only solution would be for him to require the payment, but to pay it himself.

That's why the cross was necessary. The word “omnipotent” isn’t in the Bible. I could go into the meanings of the Hebrew terms that are translated "God Almighty", but suffice it to say they don't give us semantic problems like the old "Could God make a rock that he can't lift?" There are things God can't do; He can't violate his nature, which includes justice and love. So with regard to a human race which he loves and wants to be in loving relationship with him now and forever, but which had used the free will with which he had gifted them to turn away from him into selfishness, he had a problem. Yes, God had a problem. He could not violate his love that would do anything to have us with him, nor his justice. He couldn’t just forgive us because He wants to.

He also can't die. Aside from being God, he is a spirit, not flesh. He had to take off the robe, inhabit flesh, become human, and pay the penalty himself. The violence that happened to Jesus at the cross is the measure of God's intense, passionate hatred for sin, and of his equally intense, passionate love for me, and for you.


So can that sacrifice apply to someone who has never heard of it? There’s a passage in the Bible (Romans 2: 12-16, especially 14 & 15) that is talking about the law, not the Cross, but it shows how God regards those who haven’t heard his words. To paraphrase it, when somebody who hasn’t heard tries to live right according to whatever understanding he has, sometimes he’ll do right and feel pretty good about himself, and other times he’ll do wrong and feel guilty, but God judges him by his heart. Note that the man is judging himself by how well he lives up to whatever religion or morals he has come to believe, but God judges him by something else entirely: the secrets of his heart, as only God can.

How about those who have heard and rejected it? Once again, God judges the heart. I think of the holocaust survivor for whom holding onto his Jewish identity is the only thing that kept his spirit alive. Actually, you can receive the Gospel and maintain your Jewish identity -- Jesus is very Jewish -- but such an experience could conceivably make it impossible to receive that. I also think of the person physically abused as a child “in the name of God.” People have been healed of those kinds of hurts and been able to receive it, but once again, only God can judge.

Remember though, He judges, not on how good you do at living according to whatever standard you think is right, but on a heart attitude toward him.

There are a lot of directions I could go from here, but I think I’d better stop and post this. and elaborate on related issues only if anyone is interested.
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Re: A question for the religious

Postby jonesthecurl on Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:28 am

Thank you gringo - very coherent.
Other Xians- would you say that was a fair summary?
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Re: A question for the religious

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:27 pm

I do not know what you mean by Xians ... I saw you use it and your definition, but have not really seen it used elsewhere.

Anyway, that is one idea. No one really knows. I tend to believe what I said earlier, that the restraints are restraints that God has imposed on the way Earth and humans and such work... and if they did not work that way, we would not be human, ti would not be Earth. But, there is no real "correct" answer ... at least for us in this lifetime.
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Re: A question for the religious

Postby jonesthecurl on Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:14 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:I do not know what you mean by Xians ... I saw you use it and your definition, but have not really seen it used elsewhere.

.


Oh, that's just shorthand for Christian - like Xmas is shorthand for Christmas. Sorry, I've seen others use it too, thought it was understood.
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