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Russia vs Georgia

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Re: Russia vs Georgia

Postby Ruben Cassar on Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:48 am

[quote="cassanooba"mod edit[/quote]

It was a rhetoric question, as I said food for thought. Just an illustrating a different angle to the whole situation since I assume most of the people over here are anti Russian. No need to pass useless comments at this stage cool guy.

England and France and all the examples you mentioned are totally different from Russia and Georgia as neighbours and have nothing to do with this whole argument. There's no way you can compare these countries to the situation of Russia and Georgia in my personal opinion.
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Re: Russia vs Georgia

Postby Qwert on Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:51 am

Georgia have same problem like Serbia,also Georgia declare that not recognise Kosovo independent. These is only begining of pandora box. South Osetia and Abxazia want to take Kosovo independent formula, also many other nonrecognise state(Palestine,Transnistria,NagornoKarabax.....) want to be independent like Kosovo. But big problem is when you want to create Country,taking terittory from other Country who is recognised in UN. These not bring nothing good.
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Re: Russia vs Georgia

Postby e_i_pi on Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:10 am

Ruben Cassar wrote:
e_i_pi wrote:All of these regions have ethnic identity and/or seperatist movements, yet haven't initiated a formal process of seceding.


It's not true that those regions listed want to secede from Russia. Russia has always been very ethnically, culturally and religiously diverse. Just because these regions have different elements of any of these three it does not mean that they want to secede.


Sorry, I was going off http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_autonomist_and_secessionist_movements :roll:
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Re: Russia vs Georgia

Postby MeDeFe on Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:35 am

qwert wrote:But big problem is when you want to create Country,taking terittory from other Country who is recognised in UN. These not bring nothing good.

Which brings us back to my previous statement, the nation-state as a geographically defined entity is just a historical relict and not something that "has to be". I see no inherent problems with two nations overlapping if the people living in a territory are citizens of either one or the other.
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Re: Russia vs Georgia

Postby Ruben Cassar on Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:38 am

e_i_pi wrote:
Ruben Cassar wrote:
e_i_pi wrote:All of these regions have ethnic identity and/or seperatist movements, yet haven't initiated a formal process of seceding.


It's not true that those regions listed want to secede from Russia. Russia has always been very ethnically, culturally and religiously diverse. Just because these regions have different elements of any of these three it does not mean that they want to secede.


Sorry, I was going off http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_autonomist_and_secessionist_movements :roll:


Did you look at some of the list of regions in that link? Just looking at Spain you would think that the country is doomed and that it will break in like 15 pieces. That is far from the reality though as only the Basque region causes trouble. The others are mostly fanatical groups which aren't taken seriously and who are not really trying to secede from Spain.

Russia being much larger than Spain has more regions of course but the same argument can be applied.
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Re: Russia goes to war

Postby clapper011 on Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:40 am

merging this with the other russia thread...
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Re: Russia vs Georgia

Postby Ruben Cassar on Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:42 am

MeDeFe wrote:
qwert wrote:But big problem is when you want to create Country,taking terittory from other Country who is recognised in UN. These not bring nothing good.

Which brings us back to my previous statement, the nation-state as a geographically defined entity is just a historical relict and not something that "has to be". I see no inherent problems with two nations overlapping if the people living in a territory are citizens of either one or the other.


The world as you see it might be good in theory but in practice it would be anarchy. Two nations cannot overlap or else they wouldn't be two nations but one.

Also although Kosovo wants to secede from Serbia you cannot apply the same reasoning for its secession to every other region in the world that wants to secede. Each case is different and has a history of its own and must be analysed separately.
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Re: Russia vs Georgia

Postby MeDeFe on Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:46 am

Ruben Cassar wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:
qwert wrote:But big problem is when you want to create Country,taking terittory from other Country who is recognised in UN. These not bring nothing good.

Which brings us back to my previous statement, the nation-state as a geographically defined entity is just a historical relict and not something that "has to be". I see no inherent problems with two nations overlapping if the people living in a territory are citizens of either one or the other.

The world as you see it might be good in theory but in practice it would be anarchy. Two nations cannot overlap or else they wouldn't be two nations but one.

Why? What are the problems?
If half the people in a region want to belong to nation A and the other half to nation B, why not let them?
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Re: Russia vs Georgia

Postby Ruben Cassar on Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:48 am

MeDeFe wrote:
Ruben Cassar wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:
qwert wrote:But big problem is when you want to create Country,taking terittory from other Country who is recognised in UN. These not bring nothing good.

Which brings us back to my previous statement, the nation-state as a geographically defined entity is just a historical relict and not something that "has to be". I see no inherent problems with two nations overlapping if the people living in a territory are citizens of either one or the other.

The world as you see it might be good in theory but in practice it would be anarchy. Two nations cannot overlap or else they wouldn't be two nations but one.

Why? What are the problems?
If half the people in a region want to belong to nation A and the other half to nation B, why not let them?


What is wrong with Communism? Wouldn't it be nice if all of us were equal? What went wrong?

This is the same thing. In theory it might look great but not in practice. Of course this is my personal opinion.
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Re: Russia vs Georgia

Postby MeDeFe on Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:52 am

Ruben Cassar wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:
Ruben Cassar wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:
qwert wrote:But big problem is when you want to create Country,taking terittory from other Country who is recognised in UN. These not bring nothing good.

Which brings us back to my previous statement, the nation-state as a geographically defined entity is just a historical relict and not something that "has to be". I see no inherent problems with two nations overlapping if the people living in a territory are citizens of either one or the other.

The world as you see it might be good in theory but in practice it would be anarchy. Two nations cannot overlap or else they wouldn't be two nations but one.

Why? What are the problems?
If half the people in a region want to belong to nation A and the other half to nation B, why not let them?

What is wrong with Communism? Wouldn't it be nice if all of us were equal? What went wrong?

This is the same thing. In theory it might look great but not in practice. Of course this is my personal opinion.

How about naming some of the insurmountable problems you see with my proposal of overlapping nations instead of simply asserting that it will never work because you say so? It could lead to a very interesting discussion I think.
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Re: Russia vs Georgia

Postby Qwert on Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:50 pm

You have many example who is similar:
Cyprus-Un recognise all Cyprus,but he is divide in two-Greek and Turkish-Turks dont want to live with greeks want to have hes own country.
Moldova-Un Recognise all Moldova,but one part is create hes own country and dont want to live with moldova people.
Georgia-Un recognise all Georgia,but some parts is seceded and create own countries,and these people not georgians.
Azerbaijan-Un recognise all Azerbajan,but one part is seceded and dont want to live with Azeri people.
And you have many more and more examples.

These is same like Kosovo,people dont want to live with Serbians and declare independent.
All these country have same similarity with kosovo,where in these area live one people who dont want to live with other people,and these is etnical clear countries. In these way,hundred regions all over eart can request to have hes own country,only in etnical reason.
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Re: Russia vs Georgia

Postby GabonX on Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:06 pm

MeDeFe wrote:How about naming some of the insurmountable problems you see with my proposal of overlapping nations instead of simply asserting that it will never work because you say so? It could lead to a very interesting discussion I think.

In certain rare circumstances this may be a good idea (perhaps Jerusalem could be shared between Israel and Palestine at some future date) but over all such a thing would create alot of problems. Certainly if everyone subscribed to the "why can't we all just get along" philosiphy it could work but the harsh reality is that there are people who empower themselves by demeaning others. Quite frankly the Russians would treat any people who considered themselves a foreign nation inside Russia's borders as pee ons.

There are other problems as well. Who would have access to the natural resources of the region? It would be nice if two nations could split them but I don't see this as being very likely. Also, which nation's laws would be applied if a crime were commited. What would happen if Russia allowed capital punishment and Georgia didn't and a Georgian killed a Russian? What if the two countries have different policies regarding what drugs and weapons they allow their citizens to have? Problmes like these coupled with the already violent tension in the region leads me to believe that Russia and Georgia cannot share territory.
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Re: Russia vs Georgia

Postby Ruben Cassar on Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:13 pm

MeDeFe wrote:How about naming some of the insurmountable problems you see with my proposal of overlapping nations instead of simply asserting that it will never work because you say so? It could lead to a very interesting discussion I think.


Just watch the news bulletin on a daily basis and you will get many examples.

The world doesn't work that way. Your idea is utopian. What you propose is frankly impossible....it's not compatible with human nature. Great Britain went to war because of some useless rocks that they call the Falkland Islands and that Argentina call Islas Malvinas. I won't bother mentioning any other examples because there are thousands (millions) of them.

Also I said it was a personal opinion...I never said "it wouldn't work because I say so". In fact I said it was a personal opinion in my previous post to avoid getting replies like that and still here it comes...
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Re: Russia vs Georgia

Postby kletka on Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:48 pm



:D They overdid it :D

The dissolution of USSR was a messy divorce. It is not clear why the administrative division of the soviet state should be a basis of internationally recognized borders but somehow it is with a few exceptions. The 15 sister republics became 15 different states with no other entities allowed to become states. The following are biggest flashpoints for the future and presence :o

1) South Ossetia - used to be an automonous republic within Georgia. Ossetins were against the break-up of the USSR because the bigger part of their nation was left in Russia (North Ossetia - remember Beslan). In responce, Georgia annulled their autonomous republic status as well as its name. Ossetians were virtually independent since then.

2) Chechnya - the only region of Russia that did not sign the federative treaty in Russia. Currently run by former warlord Basaev who virtually annihilated most of Ichkeria fighters...

3) Nagornyj Karabach - used to be part of Azerbajdzhan but controlled by Armenia now. The war is inevitable as oil-reach Azerbajdzhan is building up military to take it over.

4) Abkhazia - this muslim nation declared independence from Georgia in 1991, and won a brief independence war (with a military help from Chechnya). As far as I remember, the georgian invasion force was a ragtag army quickly assembled from criminals...

5) Transdnestria - part of Moldova, east of Dnestr. They fought a brief independence war but with Moldova and run their own affairs since 1991. A new war is unlikely as Moldova is the poorest nation in Europe now.

Some of other flashpoints were resolved. Tatarstan was bribed to sign federation treaty in Russia after initial refusal. Adjaria was easily run over by georgian forces several years under Saakashvili. Crimea, which was part of Russia before it was presented to Ukraine by Khruschev, was recognized by Russia as a part of Ukraine in 1997.
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Re: Russia vs Georgia

Postby Duel007 on Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:07 pm

The whole situation is a mess. I think Russia is just trying to gain some recognition right now by attacking their smaller, inferior neighbor. They've been out of the limelight for so long. Georgia is had ambitions of joining NATO, and I guess Russia didn't want that. Both sides are blaming the conflict on each other, but it's pretty obvious the aggression comes from Russia's side. To makes things worse, Georgia has 2000 troops in Iraq right now so it would be a slap in the face if the US didn't offer SOME type of help. Direct military intervention would be a disaster.

What I see happening is that the US and the rest of Europe denounces Russias attack while possibly providing aid for Georgia. War with Russia could be the precursor to something much larger and would serve to further destabilize an already unstable region.
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Re: Russia vs Georgia

Postby Ruben Cassar on Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:54 pm

Duel007 wrote:The whole situation is a mess. I think Russia is just trying to gain some recognition right now by attacking their smaller, inferior neighbor. They've been out of the limelight for so long. Georgia is had ambitions of joining NATO, and I guess Russia didn't want that. Both sides are blaming the conflict on each other, but it's pretty obvious the aggression comes from Russia's side. To makes things worse, Georgia has 2000 troops in Iraq right now so it would be a slap in the face if the US didn't offer SOME type of help. Direct military intervention would be a disaster.

What I see happening is that the US and the rest of Europe denounces Russias attack while possibly providing aid for Georgia. War with Russia could be the precursor to something much larger and would serve to further destabilize an already unstable region.


Sometimes I wonder from where you guys get your information. I guess some of you are too biased against Russia from the times of the Cold War era. Russia wasn't planning this. Georgia attacked South Ossetia and the Russians just moved in and attacked back and now it's a mess. Probably the Russians might try to take advantage of the situation as it develops but even on the BBC and Euronews they stated that Georgia was the first to make an attack. I wouldn't be surprised if Russia tries to annex both South Ossetia and Abkhazia but this is just speculation from my side.

The EU won't help Georgia. Do you think they really care? All they care about is oil and gas and Russia provides 1/3 of the gas the EU consumes, so no they won't intervene directly. They might try to mediate, which will be a farce like all EU foreign affairs diplomacy. We can't even agree between ourselves on a treaty let alone talk others into a solution.

The US will probably just say that it doesn't like what Russia is doing and show solidarity with Georgia but it won't intervene either. It will be just words. US military resources are already stretched out and they surely won't mess around with Russia, especially since it's not worth it.

It will be interesting to see how things develop though. I am not worried about a spillover effect of this war since I don't think this thing could grow much as Georgia is no match for Russia.
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Re: Russia vs Georgia

Postby Duel007 on Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:57 pm

Well, what motive does Georgia have to attack Russia? They're clearly outmatched, and they were first to call for ceasefire. Countries who attack first typically don't call for ceasefire within days of starting the fight. I don't see what Georgia has to gain from attacking Russia other than total destruction--which is what they are getting.
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Re: Russia vs Georgia

Postby Ruben Cassar on Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:00 pm

Duel007 wrote:Well, what motive does Georgia have to attack Russia? They're clearly outmatched, and they were first to call for ceasefire. Countries who attack first typically don't call for ceasefire within days of starting the fight. I don't see what Georgia has to gain from attacking Russia other than total destruction--which is what they are getting.


Georgia attacked South Ossetia not Russia as I said in the previous post.
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Re: Russia vs Georgia

Postby Grooveman2007 on Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:03 pm

Duel007 wrote:Well, what motive does Georgia have to attack Russia? They're clearly outmatched, and they were first to call for ceasefire. Countries who attack first typically don't call for ceasefire within days of starting the fight. I don't see what Georgia has to gain from attacking Russia other than total destruction--which is what they are getting.



Yeah, says the Russians. And I'd believe Bush before I'd believe them. Georgia attacked South Ossetiato to quell the breakaway movement and Russia then decided that that was justification to show off their military might.
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Re: Russia vs Georgia

Postby Duel007 on Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:04 pm

Ah. I see. Well, what motive do they have to attack them? What do they have to gain?
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Re: Russia vs Georgia

Postby MeDeFe on Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:06 pm

MeDeFe wrote:How about naming some of the insurmountable problems you see with my proposal of overlapping nations instead of simply asserting that it will never work because you say so? It could lead to a very interesting discussion I think.

GabonX wrote:In certain rare circumstances this may be a good idea (perhaps Jerusalem could be shared between Israel and Palestine at some future date) but over all such a thing would create alot of problems. Certainly if everyone subscribed to the "why can't we all just get along" philosiphy it could work but the harsh reality is that there are people who empower themselves by demeaning others. Quite frankly the Russians would treat any people who considered themselves a foreign nation inside Russia's borders as pee ons.

There are other problems as well. Who would have access to the natural resources of the region? It would be nice if two nations could split them but I don't see this as being very likely. Also, which nation's laws would be applied if a crime were commited. What would happen if Russia allowed capital punishment and Georgia didn't and a Georgian killed a Russian? What if the two countries have different policies regarding what drugs and weapons they allow their citizens to have? Problmes like these coupled with the already violent tension in the region leads me to believe that Russia and Georgia cannot share territory.

Ruben Cassar wrote:Just watch the news bulletin on a daily basis and you will get many examples.

The world doesn't work that way. Your idea is utopian. What you propose is frankly impossible....it's not compatible with human nature. Great Britain went to war because of some useless rocks that they call the Falkland Islands and that Argentina call Islas Malvinas. I won't bother mentioning any other examples because there are thousands (millions) of them.

Also I said it was a personal opinion...I never said "it wouldn't work because I say so". In fact I said it was a personal opinion in my previous post to avoid getting replies like that and still here it comes...

Ruben, don't such problems arise exactly from this habit of defining nations according to geographical boundaries? You say it's against "human nature", but human nature is a habit that can be changed. Change the habit of defining countries geographically rather than by the people that form the political body and the problem will go away, it doesn't have to happen overnight, I realize that that's an impossibility. As Gabon said, in some circumstances it would work in today's world, in others not, but as the modus is instituted in more and more cases it becomes an accepted part of the mainstream political situation.

As for the application of laws in a situation when people with different nationalities are involved in one crime it would most likely be a matter of negotiations between the two states whether the laws of the nation the victim or the perpetrator belongs to should apply (No, I'm not proposing some "one size fits none"-concept). Personally I say the laws of the nation the perpetrator belongs to because there are also "victimless crimes". Similar for laws regulating drugs and weapons.

This is far from a "why can't we all just get along" philosophy, I'm trying to argue from the very premise that there IS potential for conflict between humans, but I am also of the opinion that the reasons that perpetuate these conflicts, especially ethnic and religious ones, are founded on reasons that are essentially arbitrary. The groups that dispute are distinguishable only by the labels they apply to themselves and the other. I have no idea what inherent feature makes a Hutu different from a Tutsi, a Protestant from a Catholic, or a Jew from an Aryan.
In most cases this is essentially giving the people exactly what they ask for, namely the right to live in the specified area under the political order of their choice, it's just that the other group gets to do the same.
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Re: Russia vs Georgia

Postby Ruben Cassar on Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:08 pm

Duel007 wrote:Ah. I see. Well, what motive do they have to attack them? What do they have to gain?


Check out the BBC News website. I think they have a history of the whole thing in an article over there.
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Re: Russia vs Georgia

Postby brooksieb on Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:52 pm

Well we should help Georgia, problem is we can't fight Russia.... Just prostitute the UN to get a ceasefire and just send AID to anyone who needs it , obviously it is much more complicated then that but you get the idea.... Hopefully.... if not just tell and i'll make a better post tommorow.
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Re: Russia vs Georgia

Postby brooksieb on Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:52 pm

Anyway every country prostitutes the UN lol.
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Re: Russia vs Georgia

Postby Jenos Ridan on Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:23 pm

Frigidus wrote:Whatever happens we won't be involved. What's there to gain in fighting someone as tough as Russia? There's nothing to be gained in helping Georgia either. A losing proposition all in all. Unless something arises that might potentially make someone money we'll be neutral.


We'll become involved if Georgia becomes a NATO member, whether there is money to be made or not. And then, who is to say that this is not a precurser to a larger campaign? MeDeFe pointed out that Russia has internal trouble. Either it still does and this is part of a PR scam to bolster national pride (this is not without precident) or the internal strife is greatly eggagerated (again, wouldn't be the first time). If this is part of something larger, then the US and allies may become involved when Russia attacks someplace that is strategically important.
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