Global warming.

[Snorri1234]

When was the last time you filled you gas tank?

A few weeks ago.


Ofcourse, it wasn't actually my gastank. The car was my dad's and we just got our car from the airport. I don't actually use a car in my normal life except for driving my little sister somewhere or picking my brother up from the train-station. I rarely if ever put any gas in the tank as the few short trips I take don't show up on the thing anyway.


Honestly, just go live in more densely populated areas and all your gas-problems will dissapear.

[Neoteny]

As far as changes go, they really aren't very drastic. Human beings are very resourceful, we are all aware of the alternatives.

Anyway...

We need solid answers, not conjecture.

The answer is solor. We all agree on that. The conjecture is wheather or not we actually should care.
But anyway, due to humans having increased actual greenhouse gases prior to the warming stage, the cycle gets to skip a step. So the actual CO2 increase that is suppose to follow, may be fairly intense. We're talking sunny skies over the UK. But that isn't for certain...
This is the stuff that hasn't happened before.

Did you read my post, Juan? It was hard as hell to miss...

[HapSmo19]

IS REAL!!!

Okay, let's do a poll on this shizzle. I've just read something interresting about it and wonder what the opinion of you people is.

Though I really do not, or pretend, to understand how it is happening, I know it is happening. I cannot ignore the FACT that the polar ice caps have shrunk by 50% over the last thirty years. Any one who cannot see what is staring them in the face is an idiot, no two ways about it.

When speaking of idiots, don't forget to include in that bunch, those that volunteer to be put in a little box because "something" is happening.

So, you're saying that the ice caps have not shrunk so much over so few years?

I hope that is not your intent.

The fact remains, the world is getting warmer. The question is, what the heck is causing it?! We need solid answers, not conjecture.

I never said the ice caps weren't shrinking. My point is that it really doesn't make a difference if they disapear altogether. It's time for them to go until they return.
My problem comes with legislating the western world into a state of weakness over this as China goes full speed ahead unchecked. While this climate ordeal may be something new and has everybody thinking the human race is going to go the way of the dinosaur(which it will eventually) or whatever it is they're afraid of, agendas, corruption and greed have been here all along and haven't gone away.
It comes as no suprise to me that the first "solutions" to the problem that the powers-that-be can really get behind is the money in our pocket and trimming back on freedoms. I'm just not going to buy it.
The Earth has seen much worse than the human race. The human race won't.

[mpjh]

OK, some good points. What would you have us do?

[HapSmo19]

OK, some good points. What would you have us do?

Focus on the messengers.

[mpjh]

What, you mean in the Greek sense?

[Jenos Ridan]

I never said the ice caps weren't shrinking. My point is that it really doesn't make a difference if they disapear altogether. It's time for them to go until they return.
My problem comes with legislating the western world into a state of weakness over this as China goes full speed ahead unchecked. While this climate ordeal may be something new and has everybody thinking the human race is going to go the way of the dinosaur(which it will eventually) or whatever it is they're afraid of, agendas, corruption and greed have been here all along and haven't gone away.
It comes as no suprise to me that the first "solutions" to the problem that the powers-that-be can really get behind is the money in our pocket and trimming back on freedoms. I'm just not going to buy it.
The Earth has seen much worse than the human race. The human race won't.

One of the reasons I'm against the Kyoto Protocol is the fact it exempts certain nations from the list.

Aslo, like Wind and Geothermal power, solar is a rather limited application. Geothermal is great for Iceland, but how many nations have such natural resources to tap into like that? Hydro-electric is great for regional power, but Fish First hates them. Wind, again, how many places would generate enough for viability? In fact, just across the river from home there is a wind generator that NOT ONCE have I seen turn. I've viewed it on many occations, both across the river and up close. Not once in all the time I've known it was their, easily three or more years. Solar? Great for a single dwelling far from town, but only that. In an old TIME article, I read about EcoVillages. Probably good for small, rural communities, but not for big cities.

So JR, what would you suggest? You just poo poo'ed every other option.

No, we have options. First, we can synthize petroleum, via the Fischer-Tropisch Process, a process known to the world since the mid to late 1940's. It's been collecting dust on some bookcase for 60 years!? I'm surprised Big Oil hasn't swooped in and burn all the damn papers, keeping the secret for themselves (maybe, Big Oil is not the global conspiracy nutjobs want us to think). Second, physicists all round the world are working on the secret of nuclear fusion. Also, I never said that wind and solar wouldn't work. I said that they are not the pancrea to our energy situation. Wind is limited largely to regions were regular breezes can be expected year-round. And solar does not work to well on the large scale.

It will take the intiative of small communities and of the private homeowner make alot of the above work. The rest, is more or less in place.

[HapSmo19]

What, you mean in the Greek sense?

Hmmm. If you insist

[mpjh]

What do you mean by focus on the messenger?

[got tonkaed]

id assume hed be arguing you should take a close look at whose telling you what in order to understand why.

Its a bit of a flawed premise though, because although China/India other countries in the developing world are going to want to and probably fight to continue to use resources at high rates, it isnt the biggest issue as far as economic competitiveness. Especially concerning china, intellecutal property rights are far more important than resources usage, if your going to argue from that position. In fact if anything, his stance makes the necessity to build greener buildings (even if needed to be done by mandate) all the more relevant and pressing. Since we certainly can not outcompete china on labor prices, we have to be able to outcompete them in resource costs. Greener buildings are higher levels of efficiency in energy are not bad at all in that regard.

his argument against doing these things, when placed in appropriate context might actually be something that takes away a potential strength in the future.

[mpjh]

OK, some good points. What would you have us do?

Focus on the messengers.

What do you mean?

[jay_a2j]

Global warming is caused by SUN SPOT ACTIVITY. Man has nothing to do with it. It has been occurring throughout history. We can do NOTHING to prevent it. Will you please let it rest.

[mpjh]

OK, some good points. What would you have us do?

Focus on the messengers.

OK, are you just playing with yourself on that fake bomb, or can you explain what you mean by focus on the messengers?

[Nobunaga]

Global warming is caused by SUN SPOT ACTIVITY. Man has nothing to do with it. It has been occurring throughout history. We can do NOTHING to prevent it. Will you please let it rest.

... Jay, thank you (sarc.) for giving this thread a kick - Baiting folks to start throwing graphs up and declaring you an idiot.

... Well done. These global warming threads are always so refreshing.

...

[Neoteny]

Global warming is caused by SUN SPOT ACTIVITY. Man has nothing to do with it. It has been occurring throughout history. We can do NOTHING to prevent it. Will you please let it rest.

... Jay, thank you (sarc.) for giving this thread a kick - Baiting folks to start throwing graphs up and declaring you an idiot.

... Well done. These global warming threads are always so refreshing.

...

I actually already posted the graph. It just seems noone bothered to read it. Except Frigid, of course.

[Simon Viavant]

If it's sun spots, WHY THE HELL HAS IT NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE?!!! There's nothing natural that could make the earth's temperature increase noticeably in the last 50 years. There are several climate cycles involving the sun, anywhere from 100,000 year cycle to a 10,000 year cycle. THERE IS NO 100 YEAR CYCLE.

Anyway, back to the meaningful conversation going on earlier. I think the government should put a tax on carbon. That way, companies would develop efficient alternative energy because it would be more profitable than fossil fuels and people would buy alternative energy because it's cheaper. It might be a short term loss, but it would work in the long term.

[Nobunaga]

If it's sun spots, WHY THE HELL HAS IT NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE?!!! There's nothing natural that could make the earth's temperature increase noticeably in the last 50 years. There are several climate cycles involving the sun, anywhere from 100,000 year cycle to a 10,000 year cycle. THERE IS NO 100 YEAR CYCLE.

Anyway, back to the meaningful conversation going on earlier. I think the government should put a tax on carbon. That way, companies would develop efficient alternative energy because it would be more profitable than fossil fuels and people would buy alternative energy because it's cheaper. It might be a short term loss, but it would work in the long term.

... Tax on carbon. Great idea. Who will evaluate and who will determine limits, using what as a baseline?

... Though gov't would love more money, no argument there.

... Such a tax would do little more than drive companies south to Mexico.

...

[Simon Viavant]

... Tax on carbon. Great idea. Who will evaluate and who will determine limits, using what as a baseline?

... Though gov't would love more money, no argument there.

... Such a tax would do little more than drive companies south to Mexico.

...

You are a liar for not voting Exxon Mobil knows better than you. Evaluate and determine limits. Talking about ANY carbon, not putting a limit on the amount of carbon. Drive companies to Mexico. That wouldn't do anything, the tax would be on imports of carbon, too. If it drives the oil bitches away, that's good news. That's the goal. Carbon companies won't be able to compete in the U.S. because renewable energy will be more profitable, and with that incentive, companies will spend money on developing more efficient renewable energy.

[Juan_Bottom]

If it's sun spots, WHY THE HELL HAS IT NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE?!!! There's nothing natural that could make the earth's temperature increase noticeably in the last 50 years. There are several climate cycles involving the sun, anywhere from 100,000 year cycle to a 10,000 year cycle. THERE IS NO 100 YEAR CYCLE.

Anyway, back to the meaningful conversation going on earlier. I think the government should put a tax on carbon. That way, companies would develop efficient alternative energy because it would be more profitable than fossil fuels and people would buy alternative energy because it's cheaper. It might be a short term loss, but it would work in the long term.

Simon, you are stupid. Stupidy stupid. remember the last Global Warming thread you started and then got slapped around in? I have already shown you that it is solar, and has happened before. Yet here you are, acting like it never happened.

OK, are you just playing with yourself on that fake bomb, or can you explain what you mean by focus on the messengers?

I think he mans trust no one outright, and ask a lot of questions.

Global warming is caused by SUN SPOT ACTIVITY. Man has nothing to do with it. It has been occurring throughout history. We can do NOTHING to prevent it. Will you please let it rest.

He has a point. There is little we actually could do to battle the sun.

Aslo, like Wind and Geothermal power, solar is a rather limited application.

But there are always options. Even nuclear, if we must. You just have to mix and match.

Solar though, I believe, is set for a takeover.

[mpjh]

I suggest considering the following:

Tax on carbon.
Caps on carbon emissions, no trade.
Mandatory mass transportation systems for all cities larger than 80,000, subsidized by tax on carbon.
Take center lanes out of interstate highway and replace with bullet trains.
Affordable housing near work locations.
Stop development of the best farm land in the world and use it to grow plants.
Mandate diesel for all engines over a set level in horsepower.
Give tax credit for smart cars and plug-in hybrids.
Subsidize wind power development.
Subsidize solar power development.
Prohibit the construction of any new coal fired power plants.
Prohibit the construction of any new nuclear power plants until a method for disposal of the waste is found.

I can think of a few more, but this is a good start

[Juan_Bottom]

Tax on carbon.

Worst idea ever. Literally. that would cripple the US. NEOTENY, I'm looking for my graph too.

[mpjh]

No it would not cripple the economy, it would shift it from a fundamentally military based economy to an environmental economy. Instead of spending a billion a week on war, we could be creating jobs in the environmental arena. The tax on carbon would be a major part of that shift if the proceeds are used for that job creation in the wind, solar, and tidal power areas.

[Juan_Bottom]

http://www.livescience.com/environment/ ... rming.html
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... rming.html
http://seoblackhat.com/2007/03/04/globa ... d-jupiter/
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/3434
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17582152/

SOLAR WARMING articles from SIMON V.'s thread.

The tax on carbon would be a major part of that shift if the proceeds are used for that job creation in the wind, solar, and tidal power areas.

But for the average American worker, their jobs would be thrown out the window. Nearly all businesses today have a carbon footprint. And how are they to ofset the cost of the new tax, if not layoffs?

Furthermore, we have yet to prove CO2 even plays a role in this.

The bulk of global warming is from the last Ice age till now, where, if you adjust for the yearly temps for the earth, the earths mean temp. rose very quickly. Yet the bulk of CO2 emissions didn't occur until after 1940...
But since then the earths mean temp is rising more slowly.

Isn't this auspicious?

[mpjh]

It doesn't really matter whether the current climate change is being caused in most part by carbon emissions. The list of actions I propose would positively affect our economy and the world's economy. Innovation and creativity would explode once we move away for the current war economy. The list of items I propose are:

Tax on carbon.
Caps on carbon emissions, no trade.
Mandatory mass transportation systems for all cities larger than 80,000, subsidized by tax on carbon.
Take center lanes out of interstate highway and replace with bullet trains.
Affordable housing near work locations.
Stop development of the best farm land in the world and use it to grow plants.
Mandate diesel for all engines over a set level in horsepower.
Give tax credit for smart cars and plug-in hybrids.
Subsidize wind power development.
Subsidize solar power development.
Prohibit the construction of any new coal fired power plants.
Prohibit the construction of any new nuclear power plants until a method for disposal of the waste is found.


take care

[Juan_Bottom]

That's not what I'm argueing, really.
I'm argueing that it would be bad for our American economy. Then you're affordable housing goes out the window.

Tax on carbon.

Bad idea.

Caps on carbon emissions, no trade.

On what? Cars?

Mandatory mass transportation systems for all cities larger than 80,000, subsidized by tax on carbon.

Tax on carbon is bad. Forced transportation is worst. And probably unconstitutional, as it impeads your right to travel.

Take center lanes out of interstate highway and replace with bullet trains.

Subsidiezed by magic? Not viable in most places... A bit excessive.

Affordable housing near work locations.

Can't happen in a free society. I mean, government can only regulate, not control prices.

Stop development of the best farm land in the world and use it to grow plants.

There's a word for this... "communism" is it? But on the plus side, global warming means better living conditions for plants....

Mandate diesel for all engines over a set level in horsepower.

Eh.... probably illegal again.

Give tax credit for smart cars and plug-in hybrids.

Done. In fact, the Clinton admininistration gave money to American car companies to develope them. But Bush did away with that, so the American companies scrapped their projects. Big mistake, because foriegn hybred's sales kick ass.

Subsidize wind power development.
Subsidize solar power development.

Done, and an excellent idea.

Prohibit the construction of any new coal fired power plants.

What about 'smart plants.' The ones that recycle, rather than dump into the atmosphere?

Prohibit the construction of any new nuclear power plants until a method for disposal of the waste is found.

Put it in a hole. Or shoot it into the sun. Or put it in Afgahnistan... they lost the war....