Animal Rights

[black elk speaks]

I believe humans have souls and animals do not.

You only believe this because you asked that question in Sunday school when rover died and some heartless Sunday school teacher thought it was a good opportunity to show you a hard lesson on the topic. If you didn't have this notion from someone else, then you would naturally assume that animals do indeed have a soul. The thing is people, primarily christians enjoy a sense of grandeur.

I believe that God gave man dominion over animals.... (to eat them...er some of them)

As is the case for lions, bears, sharks, and most other predators.

[b.k. barunt]

I believe humans have souls and animals do not.

You only believe this because you asked that question in Sunday school when rover died and some heartless Sunday school teacher thought it was a good opportunity to show you a hard lesson on the topic. If you didn't have this notion from someone else, then you would naturally assume that animals do indeed have a soul. The thing is people, primarily christians enjoy a sense of grandeur.

I believe that God gave man dominion over animals.... (to eat them...er some of them)

As is the case for lions, bears, sharks, and most other predators.

You're right - "some people enjoy a sense of grandeur." You seem to hold yourself in rather high esteem (used to call yourself "The Lion", and now it's "Black Elk Speaks" like we're all waiting on our tippytoes for your vaunted opinions), and so you don't bother to ask Jay how he arrived at this conclusion, but rather, in your infinite wisdom, you presume to tell him how he arrived at it. Brilliant!

So tell me genius, how do you know that animals do have a soul? I, unlike you, would like to learn something (although i must admit i'm rather skeptical considering the source).


Honibaz

[Snorri1234]

Wait, why are we presuming humans have a soul?

[black elk speaks]

I believe humans have souls and animals do not.

You only believe this because you asked that question in Sunday school when rover died and some heartless Sunday school teacher thought it was a good opportunity to show you a hard lesson on the topic. If you didn't have this notion from someone else, then you would naturally assume that animals do indeed have a soul. The thing is people, primarily christians enjoy a sense of grandeur.

I believe that God gave man dominion over animals.... (to eat them...er some of them)

As is the case for lions, bears, sharks, and most other predators.

You're right - "some people enjoy a sense of grandeur." You seem to hold yourself in rather high esteem (used to call yourself "The Lion", and now it's "Black Elk Speaks" like we're all waiting on our tippytoes for your vaunted opinions), and so you don't bother to ask Jay how he arrived at this conclusion, but rather, in your infinite wisdom, you presume to tell him how he arrived at it. Brilliant!

So tell me genius, how do you know that animals do have a soul? I, unlike you, would like to learn something (although i must admit i'm rather skeptical considering the source).


Honibaz

I didn't say that they did have a soul. Only that I would assume so, as opposed to assuming that they do not. I am not even sure what a "soul" is exactly, only that it is something that isn't really classified in scientific terms and that god and satan seem to both have a high interest in. I am no christian and am not beholden to the bible.

you said that you want to learn something, but this is thing that we cannot "learn." nor can we learn the existence of god while bound in flesh. You could go so far as to point it out in your bible where is actually says that animals have no soul, and i can simply remind you that the bible is a questionable document, written by men, and acclaimed by those men to be breathed by god. it is all a matter of belief.

nonetheless, a few points that I hold true:
death is a thing that occurs naturally in the food chain
the eating of animals in as natural as death
cruelty towards animals is unacceptable

If you are going to hunt and kill a game animal, you are doing the herd a favor by keepiong its population under control.

If you are kicking your dog every day when you come home from work, you are an abusive prick and should be locked up.

If you think I am the lion then log a formal complaint. several people accuse me of being a multi for reasons, i suspect, that they were not allowed into the tavern clan. though i guess it was you that actually did elude to it in your feeble attempt to report pimp dave. your scant evidence and your hearsay are sad attempts to stifle opinions with your "multi mongering" and i tell you, i won't stand for it. log your complaints in formal with the moderators, or simply shove it up your ass.

[Juan_Bottom]

If you think I am the lion then log a formal complaint. several people accuse me of being a multi for reasons, i suspect, that they were not allowed into the tavern clan.

For the record, I never actually turned you in, nor did want to. I just wanted to defend my clansmen, ya know.

[jay_a2j]

I believe humans have souls and animals do not.

You only believe this because you asked that question in Sunday school when rover died and some heartless Sunday school teacher thought it was a good opportunity to show you a hard lesson on the topic. If you didn't have this notion from someone else, then you would naturally assume that animals do indeed have a soul. The thing is people, primarily christians enjoy a sense of grandeur.

No, I believe this because if animals had souls they would need Jesus just like us humans, when is the last time you saw a dog accept Christ?

I believe that God gave man dominion over animals.... (to eat them...er some of them)

As is the case for lions, bears, sharks, and most other predators.[/quote]


His eye is on the sparrow and I know he watches me. Food, not only are animals here for food for us humans but also each other.


If you can't see the difference between killing a human and a deer then there is no point even having this conversation.

[black elk speaks]

I believe humans have souls and animals do not.

You only believe this because you asked that question in Sunday school when rover died and some heartless Sunday school teacher thought it was a good opportunity to show you a hard lesson on the topic. If you didn't have this notion from someone else, then you would naturally assume that animals do indeed have a soul. The thing is people, primarily christians enjoy a sense of grandeur.

No, I believe this because if animals had souls they would need Jesus just like us humans, when is the last time you saw a dog accept Christ?

I believe that God gave man dominion over animals.... (to eat them...er some of them)

As is the case for lions, bears, sharks, and most other predators.

His eye is on the sparrow and I know he watches me. Food, not only are animals here for food for us humans but also each other.


If you can't see the difference between killing a human and a deer then there is no point even having this conversation.

That's nice. but those are your beliefs. I won't harass you about them as many here would, but I think you are wrong.

[Neoteny]

Except for that one part.

[jonesthecurl]

Y'know, I kill mosquitoes and I don't even eat 'em. Shoulf I have a crisis of conscience about that?
What about the germs that I kill when I use disinfectant?

[black elk speaks]

Except for that one part.

which part?

[jay_a2j]

Y'know, I kill mosquitoes and I don't even eat 'em. Shoulf I have a crisis of conscience about that?
What about the germs that I kill when I use disinfectant?

Murderer!

[black elk speaks]

Y'know, I kill mosquitoes and I don't even eat 'em. Shoulf I have a crisis of conscience about that?
What about the germs that I kill when I use disinfectant?

what about cockroaches. I will let spiders live, but not cockroaches. I kill them on site.

[Juan_Bottom]

Y'know, I kill mosquitoes and I don't even eat 'em. Shoulf I have a crisis of conscience about that?
What about the germs that I kill when I use disinfectant?

Murderer!

No, serious Jay.. does that fall under "Thou shalt not kill?"

[black elk speaks]

Y'know, I kill mosquitoes and I don't even eat 'em. Shoulf I have a crisis of conscience about that?
What about the germs that I kill when I use disinfectant?

Murderer!

No, serious Jay.. does that fall under "Thou shalt not kill?"

Juan, you know that the roman catholics have revised the 10 commandments to say "thou shall not commit murder"

[Neoteny]

You only believe this because you asked that question in Sunday school when rover died and some heartless Sunday school teacher thought it was a good opportunity to show you a hard lesson on the topic. If you didn't have this notion from someone else, then you would naturally assume that animals do indeed have a soul.

Let's not condescend the man. We should keep this civil.

[strike wolf]

Let's see if I can get the main points of the last page nicely summed up.

Two questions to ponder for all of you who don't see a problem with killing animals and then eating their meat: What's the difference between killing a human and eating their meat, and killing any other animal and eating their meat? Why's one of them ok and the other not?

Well for one thing, humans are a pack animal with other humans as members of the pack so you don't hunt your pack mates as they are there to help you survive. Other animals quite simply are not a member of our pack.


"

Might makes right" - laci_mae
So because we are a species that is capable of killing any other animal because we have used our wits and don't rely on pure strength and sharp claws and teeth (we are very lacking in that department, I must say), we have the right to do so. Does that mean because I'm smart enough to plan a murder and get away with it I may do so?
And where does this mystical imperative to maintain "harmony with nature" come from?


Prowler, you're not quite correct, what I am concerned with is that most of these people have never had a single thought about whether it is moral or not to imprison and exploit as well as kill and eat animals other than humans. If a factory owner in some far-away country has bought a hundred kids from their respective parents/orphanages and keeps them as his workforce there's international outrage. Keep several tenthousand hens and chickens in far worse conditions and there will be an overwhelming "meh".


jay, 2-year old children are loud and messy and might grow up to be the next Hitler. A squirrel is small enough to fit under the train and suffer no more than an impairment to its hearing. What I would do is not the question here. The question is why it's considered to be moral to save the kid and immoral not to save the kid while the squirrel never even enters the equation.

Morals are quite simply a human concept. No other animals dictate their actions via morals. If you really want to consider animals as having the same rights as humans and therefore no killing of animals period, than these animals would have to share the same level of responsibility as humans, therefore all the predators on the planet would no longer be allowed to hunt.

[jay_a2j]

Y'know, I kill mosquitoes and I don't even eat 'em. Shoulf I have a crisis of conscience about that?
What about the germs that I kill when I use disinfectant?

Murderer!

No, serious Jay.. does that fall under "Thou shalt not kill?"

No

[MeDeFe]

@ bk and strike wolf: It does not matter whether animals are capable of behaving in a moral way or not, I seriously doubt the hypothetical kid (or any other 2 year-old) in jay's post is capable of behaving morally. If we humans are capable of behaving morally, why should we not do so? That's what moral behaviour means after all, the right way to behave. You need to show that killing animals and using them as mere tools is moral, not that animals have no concept of morality and that therefore we can do whatever we want with them. As I said: an infant human has no concept of morality. Killing them is not considered to be moral behaviour, so why is killing animals not considered immoral?

As for "don't kill members of the pack", various apes have been observed to chase members out of the group in extremely violent manner, cannibalism exists among practically all species, kangaroos will "abort" and, I think, eat their own young if the need arises. No, the own species is nothing sacred in nature.


And BES, you still haven't told me about the purpose of elephants and common cold viruses. More generally: What are those purposes? Where do they come from? And what's that weird idea about "harmony in nature" you had?

[Anarkistsdream]

As the "king of all Species," it is our duty to protect the weak, the innocent, and even the ignorant. It is the stupid who should die... Any of you fighting MeDeFe are a bunch of Sarah Palin wanna-bes.

[laci_mae]

As the "king of all Species," it is our duty to protect the weak, the innocent, and even the ignorant. It is the stupid who should die... Any of you fighting MeDeFe are a bunch of Sarah Palin wanna-bes.

Stop trying to spam my thread. We aren't talking about politics here. There are plenty other threads to deal with that.

L

[laci_mae]

@ bk and strike wolf: It does not matter whether animals are capable of behaving in a moral way or not, I seriously doubt the hypothetical kid (or any other 2 year-old) in jay's post is capable of behaving morally. If we humans are capable of behaving morally, why should we not do so? That's what moral behaviour means after all, the right way to behave. You need to show that killing animals and using them as mere tools is moral, not that animals have no concept of morality and that therefore we can do whatever we want with them. As I said: an infant human has no concept of morality. Killing them is not considered to be moral behaviour, so why is killing animals not considered immoral?

I'm not sure why you repeatedly bring up this idea of morals. Morals are determined individually or, at least, cooperatively. Perhaps you believe that killing an animal is immoral. That's fine. But I don't. That's also fine. I just feel like you think your morals should guide mine. That's not fine. We each bring our own morals to the table and hope to come away with attitudes and behaviors which represent compromise.

For example, there is currently a federal ban on taking horses to slaughter houses. I have always been around tons of horses, and it was always sad when they got old or hurt or went crazy and had to be taken to slaughter. However, it wasn't near as sad as seeing these same types of horses left to suffer in the back corner of somebody's land. Now these horses are meeting an equally sad fate while the price of horses has bottomed out, creating havoc in the equine economy.

Best,
L

[Grooveman2007]

Y'know, I kill mosquitoes and I don't even eat 'em. Shoulf I have a crisis of conscience about that?
What about the germs that I kill when I use disinfectant?

Murderer!

No, serious Jay.. does that fall under "Thou shalt not kill?"

No

I love that answer.

[chaosfactor]

Animal Rights?

They have no rights!

We evolved before them, so they work for us.

[strike wolf]

As for "don't kill members of the pack", various apes have been observed to chase members out of the group in extremely violent manner.

And certain humans have been known to murder each other. Violence, often in the form of competition, has been shown to happen in all packs and prides. but exceptions do not make the rule. I still do not see wolves going around killing other members of their packs as often as they hunt prey. Nor do I see this with a group of lions. Yet you do not see anyone crying out that it's a double standard that a wolf will kill a deer but wouldn't kill another member of its pack. So why is it such a big deal when humans do the same basic thing for the same reason? The don't kill members of the pack rule applies more to a general belief among that pack rather than a set rule that is never broken.

[Haggis_McMutton]

Two questions to ponder for all of you who don't see a problem with killing animals and then eating their meat: What's the difference between killing a human and eating their meat, and killing any other animal and eating their meat? Why's one of them ok and the other not?

Out of curiosity, where do you draw the line? Should we treat all living things as we treat humans?