Ass rape the taxpayer bill passes, it sup to the House now.

[jay_a2j]

Yet.

Key word.

[bedub1]

I need it to fall. I want to buy a house sometime...and the entirely over-inflated housing market NEEDS to fall and rectify itself. When a house that costs 100k to build is sold on the market for 500k, everything is definitely over-valued. If the housing market doesn't continue to fall...I'll never be able to buy a house.

If they pass the bill, then the moral of the story is this: "Be a jackass, do stupid shit, and then steal money from everybody to cover your ass".

Shit...the idea of this bill passing makes me want to go buy a house I can't afford right now!

[mpjh]

What! You want justice, you want fairness. This is capitalism, not a social bridge club.

If you want justice, organize, oppose the insanity, and first write you congressperson, then vote for someone you trust, but most of all organize the world around you for justice.

[black elk speaks]

Although I have a number of degrees, I am not formally educated in macro-economics. So for those of you brighter than me, follow this proposal to its logical end and poke holes at will into the reasoning:

Beginning January 1, 2008 - Capital gains taxes on stocks, bonds and funds are abolished. (Presently capital gains taxes are 15%).

This would entice money back into the stock market now so the traders can position themselves to sell after January (if need) . . .
This would provide the grease for the lending wheels as money sitting in money markets gets put back into motion without raising inflation by being the government's money (i.e. straight from the printing plant).

Lending begins, capital is raised, jobs are created with this capital and investment.

People at work begin to look for better housing propping up the falling house prices by buying or remediating their loans.

No bailout necessary, just a simple tax break followed by reduced spending to compensate for that tax break.

Thoughts . . ?

there are many that think this to be a sound way to overt this mess. I for one, would vote for it if it were up to me. it would encourage investment and offer a chance for solid returns on investment. you know that old adage, "we make money the old fashioned way..."

[Juan_Bottom]

Excuse me, but isn't creating "debts" how we got into this mess? That and a lot of "speculation."
Maybe then Depressions will continue to hit our planet for forever and ever...

[black elk speaks]

Excuse me, but isn't creating "debts" how we got into this mess? That and a lot of "speculation."
Maybe then Depressions will continue to hit our planet for forever and ever...

how is eliminating the capital gains tax creating debt. All it does is generate investment revenue for markets to instantiate or expand their businesses. It is, in my opinion, not more expensive than a 700 billion dollar bailout when you consider that investment for the long term is more likely to suffer or need more bailing out if we just drop 700 billion into the flawed credit system. This way too, we don't raise the national debt cap or devalue the dollar (at least as much.)

[mpjh]

Eliminating the capital gains tax creates debt because of the massive amount of revenue needed to bail out the bastards making capital gains, and without the capital gains tax there is a greater deficit.

This is just like playing Kevin Bacon.

[black elk speaks]

Eliminating the capital gains tax creates debt because of the massive amount of revenue needed to bail out the bastards making capital gains, and without the capital gains tax there is a greater deficit.

This is just like playing Kevin Bacon.

You're not making any sense. eliminating tax doesn't make debt. it only generates revenue for those willing to invest if they invest wisely.

[mpjh]

Your not making sense, eliminating a tax eliminates revenue, and if spending stays the same ta dah DEBT increases

[black elk speaks]

Your not making sense, eliminating a tax eliminates revenue, and if spending stays the same ta dah DEBT increases

lol. it eliminates a direct revenue stream for the federal government, yes. but it does not create debt in the market. In the overall scheme, the money saved by investors keeps job creation up, keeping money in the hands of american people, and that keeps them spending. Taxable dollars in sales revenue remains high, income tax (which should also be cut as it is not constitutional to begin with) does not diminish, and we don't demean the dollar by nearly doubling the number of them in circulation today.

According to FBRatlanta.org, it looks like as of June 30, 2000 there was $ 571,121,194,344 in cash in circulation. Previous decades earlier, it seems that this number appears to roughly double every decade. this would be am unhealthy boost to the amount of cash in the economy for this decade, damaging out dollar when it is already weak in international comparison.

The point is to avoid dropping 700 billion into failed markets. that's just retarded.

[mpjh]

Debt is debt -- and I never said spend 700 billion on capitalist welfare, so quit changing the subject

[gdeangel]

Just jumping in with a point I made somewhere else, the best way to fix this is to allow homeowners to recognize the losses they have taken on their homes. That would be a tax break for individuals who did not jump in for the "risk-reward" curve, but got hosed when banks/the market started to jack up interest rates (LOL - look at rates now). At the same time, to tie this in with fixing the "debt crisis", which is really a confidence crisis do to uncertainty of collateral values (particularly homes), the tax write-down should only kick in after five years or so of owning your house WITHOUT EVER PUTTING IT ON THE MARKET. That would soak up some of the supply of houses on the market and end the free fall of housing prices. Collateral values now re-ascertainable, banks would be willing to trade the CP at some finite discount value.

If anyone likes to read more of my thoughts on where this is heading, I have started a blog:

http://gdeangel.blogspot.com/

Also, if your interested in this thread, you should join my "Subprime" tournament that I'm organizing... it will be a blast!

[black elk speaks]

Debt is debt -- and I never said spend 700 billion on capitalist welfare, so quit changing the subject

not pumping that 700 billion into the welfare for the rich but not doing anything to stimulate the economy will mean certain depression. the gov can stimulate the economy by eliminating tax on investments.

i didn't change the subject, its all related.

[mpjh]

We will not have a depression if we don't give the pigs 700 billion. They will just lose a lot of money.

[black elk speaks]

We will not have a depression if we don't give the pigs 700 billion. They will just lose a lot of money.

My understanding of the situation is that there will be a recession if we do not, and we will put off a depression if we do. There is talk that we can avoid both (or at least minimize a recession) if we cut the capital gains tax.

Maybe you could do some research instead of blindly responding?

[mpjh]

Who is telling you we will have a depression or recession? Why the very people that want the money are telling you that. Get real, they are the same guys that told you there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, despite knowing full well there were none.

I got a cheap bridge for you in Brooklyn.

[black elk speaks]

Who is telling you we will have a depression or recession? Why the very people that want the money are telling you that. Get real, they are the same guys that told you there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, despite knowing full well there were none.

I got a cheap bridge for you in Brooklyn.

No, I have read a lot on Ron Paul and the Libertarian philosophies on economics. their stance is that we should withdraw from the world as an empire and participate in the world economically. Our intervention in the global arena has only made us enemies.

It is the lending sector of the housing market that is in trouble. people are afraid to invest their money because of it. If they do not return to lending, in other words, if they don't regain confidence in the market, then there will be no money for businesses to unleash innovative ideas with.

RE: WMD. Our politicians all thought that there were WMD based on GW's lies. What he is lying about now is that this bailout will fix the problem. all it will do is pump more cash into the hands of the rich, which, as I see it, will boost them into a mega class of the rich elite of this country. It is a scam. It would be far better to cut the cap gains tax, let people invest what they have and earn based on smart investments.

[Juan_Bottom]

http://www.infowars.com/?p=5030

Quick list of senators who voted no

[Jenos Ridan]

I had an Idea, but I don't really know all the ramifications. A tax on Credit, perhaps might help. A ten percent tax on all transactions made via credit card, payday loan and other forms of credit other than say a home loan on a 30-year fixed rate.

Good, bad, talking arse again?

[mpjh]

arse

[Snorri1234]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/01/opinion/01friedman.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

[black elk speaks]

^^ yeah snoori, that is the typical response. "Give us the money!!!11!!!" Its very similar to the depression of 1929. Everyone looked to the government to regulate the markets and what not. That failed miserably. In fact, it was "regulation" that caused this mess to begin with, coupled with greed. Honestly, i don't give a shit if some fat cat takes home a 40 million dollar bonus if he does a good job. If thats the contract, thats the contract. They fucked up the companies, though based on laws that required them to make loans to people that were going to more likely than not default on their loans. That was a Democrat bill from the Carter years, strengthened in the Clinton years, and republicrats have done nothing to fix the problem over the years. I have read articles that are ten years old that predicted this and called for change, only to be labeled as racist.

Pumping in this money is going to help short term. Regulation will hamper business and cause more problems than they will cause, which is the way of bureaucracy, smaller lenders will struggle to conform to regulations and end up gobbled up by bigger ones, we, on main street as the fuckers in the media call us, will suffer greatly, all in the face of energy crisis and war abroad with superpower formally known as U.S.S.R.

Our Dollar will be worth less, and now, many people realize that the money that we use is a myth, it was never really worth much to begin with.

To top it off, So much extra shit is being added to this bill that it turns my stomach. What does hurricane relief have to do with this financial crisis? And all the while, our leaders are patting themselves on the back, telling us what a "pleasant experience it has been" shoving their ignorant cocks up our asses, blowing jizz all over the constitution.

Folks, this is no longer the America that was forged in 1776. The monkeys in the house, senate and white house have ravaged dour rights for quite long enough. Its time to tear it down and start again.

[Dancing Mustard]

Folks, this is no longer the America that was forged in 1776. The monkeys in the house, senate and white house have ravaged dour rights for quite long enough. Its time to tear it down and start again.

Pray tell us how?

Or are we going to follow the old "Build a compound out in the mid-west and stock up on tinfoil" approach of all the other 'Patriot' groups?


But joking aside... how do you propose to do all the tearing down and starting again stuff?

[black elk speaks]

Folks, this is no longer the America that was forged in 1776. The monkeys in the house, senate and white house have ravaged dour rights for quite long enough. Its time to tear it down and start again.

Pray tell us how?

Or are we going to follow the old "Build a compound out in the mid-west and stock up on tinfoil" approach of all the other 'Patriot' groups?


But joking aside... how do you propose to do all the tearing down and starting again stuff?

simply, there needs to be a revolution. Our government has taken our constitution and raped it. They have applied "eminent domain" in ways that it was never intended to be applied. We have a joke of a 2 party political system that only serves itself. There really aren't lobbyist in DC any more, the politicians are them! This isn't the way it is meant to be. We are become a Communist nation, where the "Government" is now bigger than the people and is oppressing our constitutional rights.

It really goes beyond the scope of this bill, it is the entire political system that has in and of itself become a business. only, its not allowed to go bankrupt.

[Juan_Bottom]

Bill passed..............................


Buy much food?