There are no terrorists.

[Snorri1234]

This thread is perfect proof for why we need a conspiracy subforum to stick all this shit in and make the off topics forum fun like it used to be.

Wait? Conspiracy?

There is no denying the fact that terrorism has been exaggerated to whatever.

[Juan_Bottom]

So we don't care about Madrid?

Yes, that's terrorism. Same as 9-11. But I know nothing about Spanish politics. Do you? I don't even know why they were hit and not us.
But to answer your question, no actually, they are outside of my monkeysphere. A terrorist in Spain is not a terrorist in America.

Can anyone here even name three militant groups in the middle east? Or are they all considered terrorists, us vs them?

Good thing we never do anything like this...

There are a lot worse pictures than that out there. Anarkistsdream, do you know what crimes those men were actually held for? It would piss you off too. But there still were no retaliations on American soil.

Just because our terrorists aren't foreign doesn't mean they don't exist... Two of my best friends parents were killed here:

You know perfectly well what I ment. If you're so afraid then vote for DHS to have more funding. But how many domestic terrorists have they caught anyway? They aren't finding terrorist yet they still have a fat budget.

[Frigidus]

The one good thing that came out of the Iraq war was that it convinced the terrorists that hitting America is a bad call.

Wow, just wow. One could call your particular condition 'politically challenged'.

And one could call you intelligent, they'd still be wrong.

He's right though, Frigi. The war didn't for a second convince any terrorist to stop attacking america. If anything, it made them more likely to attack. After all, America just proved that they are the evil oppressor.

You'd think so, but all the evidence points to the contrary. Not one death from a terrorist attack on American soil has occurred since 9/11. Not even one! I mean, look at Virginia Tech, one ragin' asian killed 32 people with a pistol. The terrorists have access to military grade weaponry. They could Grand Theft Auto the shit out of us if they wanted. How fast could the police possibly act? I mean, it defies logic, but there's no other explanation. Maybe I'm wrong about the reasoning behind it, but clearly the terrorists aren't too interested in hitting America at the moment.

[DaGip]

TERRORISTS DON'T FUCKING EXIST???

These guys hate our fucking guts and want us to leave their little impoverished countries alone! Our interventionist policy is what makes them hate us, not our freedoms!

Solution is easy, just do like Reagan did, pack up and get the f*ck out! No need to spark anymore hatred or fuel a religious war.

Everything is working in the "terrorists" favor by having us over there (by the way, that was the stated goal of the terrorists that attacked us, was to get us over there to fight). We are exhausting our finances and resources on a trillion dollar foreign war that has absolutely nothing to do with the security of America.

America is over here...remember? Not over yonder in Mohammad's camel pasture.

Noninterventionism is the only key to success in dealing with all the problems we have today. The United States has all the power it needs to pull all its troops back and protect our borders here at home. Our "Empire" is much too big and we are spread way to thin. Our economy can not and WILL NOT support these foreign wars for much longer. We got to get out, and get out now! We can't wait any longer.

[Frigidus]

These guys hate our fucking guts and want us to leave their little impoverished countries alone! Our interventionist policy is what makes them hate us, not our freedoms!

Solution is easy, just do like Reagan did, pack up and get the f*ck out! No need to spark anymore hatred or fuel a religious war.

Everything is working in the "terrorists" favor by having us over there (by the way, that was the stated goal of the terrorists that attacked us, was to get over there to fight). We are exhausting our finances and resources on a trillion dollar foreign war that has absolutely nothing to do with the security of America.

America is over here...remember? Not over yonder in Mohammad's camel pasture.

Noninterventionism is the only key to success in dealing with all the problems we have today. The United States has all the power it needs to pull all its troops back and protect our borders here at home. Our "Empire" is much too big and we are spread way to thin. Our economy can not and WILL NOT support these foreign wars for much longer. We got to get out, and get out now! We can't wait any longer.

Quite. I feel bad for those in the Middle East who want to remain secular, but we aren't cut out to be world police. At some point we have to look out for ourselves, and that means letting them have their damn theocracies.

[Juan_Bottom]

There are a lot worse pictures than that out there. Anarkistsdream, do you know what crimes those men were actually held for? It would piss you off too. But there still were no retaliations on American soil.

I should also point out that it was widely reported in the Middle East and a bit in Asia that there were also many cases of rape inside of that prison. Including as a means to extract information. Which is a method that the RUF used.

This thread is perfect proof for why we need a conspiracy subforum to stick all this shit in and make the off topics forum fun like it used to be.

Again, have you even started a thread? and is that what you're upset about? Hey, some stick, some die.

Wait? Conspiracy?

There is no denying the fact that terrorism has been exaggerated to whatever.

I don't know what it's like in Europe(I'd like to!).. but it's hot button over here. Part of the election is who can better protect us from terrorists. Before 2001 no one cared. One attack and suddenly there are terrorists everywhere. Which I can kinda understand peoples fears... but not to the extent that this issue has been taken. I mean, nude-scanners in airports and other public places? Random strip-searches? Hand held nude scanners for the street-beat cops in London? Every suspicious package must be exploded(they blew up a F-ing pack of hotdogs the other day at wrigley field; SRSLY a pack of hot-dogs was suspicious)? A billion dollar budget to spend on whatever without having to yield any results? My LOCAL police and Fire Dept get "terrorism" funding for equiptment. Why do they need to hand out this much stuff? We are never going to need this out here in the boonies. All we have is a tavern. That money could be better spent in other places.
I think enough time has gone by that people can actually address their fears.

Our "Empire" is much too big and we are spread way to thin. Our economy can not and WILL NOT support these foreign wars for much longer. We got to get out, and get out now! We can't wait any longer.

this was the reasoning behind the NADT. In case of emergancy, Mexan and Canadian troops are allowed into the US to help. Because our troops are all engaged elsewhere.

[pimpdave]

I have to side with Anarkistsdream on this one, completely. My snarky comment at the top of page 2 was an attempt to suggest that anyone thinking there are no terrorists is living in a dream world, and that may not have come across.

But, just to put it out there, there absolutely are terrorists extant. They certainly use a different name to refer to themselves than we do to them, but a rose by any other name, and all of that...

The truth is, al Qaeda is very, very patient. It would be in their best interest for us to start thinking they don't exist.

Remember that famous line from The Usual Suspects... What was the greatest trick the devil ever pulled?

(The same principle applies to organized crime, by the way, about wanting the world to think they don't exist)

[Juan_Bottom]

I have to side with Anarkistsdream on this one, completely. My snarky comment at the top of page 2 was an attempt to suggest that anyone thinking there are no terrorists is living in a dream world, and that may not have come across.

That's fine, your position is known now.

But, just to put it out there, there absolutely are terrorists extant. They certainly use a different name to refer to themselves than we do to them, but a rose by any other name, and all of that...

Where? Africa? Iraq? Afgahinistan?
Al-Qaeda does exist in many places... but also in many forms. They are like the KKK in the early days. They are very flexable and hate whoevers in their way. In Iraq anf Afgahnistan it's the US. But in Africa, they target the African Coalition.

Remember that famous line from The Usual Suspects... What was the greatest trick the devil ever pulled?

(The same principle applies to organized crime, by the way, about wanting the world to think they don't exist)

It's not whether the organizations exist, heck we have our own groups here in the US. The question is are they terrorists? Do they wish to carry deadly strikes on our soil?
Did you know that there are over 3,000 schools in Afgahinistan that teach that this is a holy war? Literally they tell their students that this is Jihad. And that stat is from like '02. All these people are being taught that this is a holy war.... yet no more attacks on American soil...
They taught the same way about the Soviets. But did you hear about any terrorist attacks on Soviet Soil? I don't see the desire to attack us. And I don't see any real proof. Gitmo is full of no-nothings.

[pmchugh]

I don't know what it's like in Europe(I'd like to!)..

In Scotland there is very little fear of terrorism, we don't really think of ourselves as a major target. Even when they did target us all they did was drive a jeep into an airport door, i've seen worse damage on World most amazing videos and the only people injured were the terrorists themsleves. Most people don't think we will be targetted again for a good while.

i think a good point from this thread is that terrorism is failing in Europe/America, no deaths in a good while, money well spent.

p.s. The US government didn't torture those people, soldiers did. There are some disgusting people out there, in every country.

[Anarkistsdream]

I don't know what it's like in Europe(I'd like to!)..

In Scotland there is very little fear of terrorism, we don't really think of ourselves as a major target. Even when they did target us all they did was drive a jeep into an airport door, i've seen worse damage on World most amazing videos and the only people injured were the terrorists themsleves. Most people don't think we will be targetted again for a good while.

i think a good point from this thread is that terrorism is failing in Europe/America, no deaths in a good while, money well spent.

p.s. The US government didn't torture those people, soldiers did. There are some disgusting people out there, in every country.

No... I couldn't give a shit what it's like where you're from... That had nothing to do with this discussion.

[Iliad]

I don't know what it's like in Europe(I'd like to!)..

In Scotland there is very little fear of terrorism, we don't really think of ourselves as a major target. Even when they did target us all they did was drive a jeep into an airport door, i've seen worse damage on World most amazing videos and the only people injured were the terrorists themsleves. Most people don't think we will be targetted again for a good while.

i think a good point from this thread is that terrorism is failing in Europe/America, no deaths in a good while, money well spent.

p.s. The US government didn't torture those people, soldiers did. There are some disgusting people out there, in every country.

No... I couldn't give a shit what it's like where you're from... That had nothing to do with this discussion.

Uhhh....

See bold

[Frigidus]

I don't know what it's like in Europe(I'd like to!)..

In Scotland there is very little fear of terrorism, we don't really think of ourselves as a major target. Even when they did target us all they did was drive a jeep into an airport door, i've seen worse damage on World most amazing videos and the only people injured were the terrorists themsleves. Most people don't think we will be targetted again for a good while.

i think a good point from this thread is that terrorism is failing in Europe/America, no deaths in a good while, money well spent.

p.s. The US government didn't torture those people, soldiers did. There are some disgusting people out there, in every country.

No... I couldn't give a shit what it's like where you're from... That had nothing to do with this discussion.

Uhhh....

See bold

[PLAYER57832]

They are plain and simple criminals who want to use politics or religion as their justification.

But they do exist.

So American Politicians and the elite rich are the real terrorists?

The basic definition of a terrorist is an individual operating apart from a government in an undeclared war. I say we did not need a new definition, they are plain criminals.

The US elite and politicians may be guilty of many things, but they don't lay bombs, kidnap or shoot people directly.

If I asked a member of the Taliban if he is a terrorist he would say no. And that's what the North Vietnamese would have said too.
These people are killing, certainly... but they aren't bombing America and realeasing poison gas.

So you claim that because they are not attacking the US, their actions are OK?

The North Vietnamese were soldiers fighting a civil war. We happened to be opposed to them, but they were not "terrorists", they were soldiers.

The Taliban is a bit more scetchy. But they are religious extremists intent on controlling thier government. I don't like the Taliban, certainly don't want to see them i in power, but the terrorists, the real criminals, were/are El Queada.

As for the US ... none of the groups you mentioned are currently active here (though I have met some Pol Pot followers in years past). We do, however have plenty of gangs, which operate about like the teorrorists do in other countries - -bombing, shooting, kidnapping and generally terrorizing innocent (and not-so-innocent) people. Then again, remember a place called Waco? A man with the last name of Weaver?

We just call them criminals and not terrorists.

P.S.

The US government didn't torture those people, soldiers did. There are some disgusting people out there, in every country.

I want to be clear that I don't justify or approve of these actions. But, there are 2 cases. Some soldiers did act completely outside the realm of even wartime "reason" and are criminals. As you say, there are some everywhere.

BUT, a lot of what soldiers do, they do because they are ordered to do so. I don't judge them the same as I would anyone outside a war situation. I have not been at war, but know it does funny things to people's minds and creates situations that make people act in ways that would normally be insane or criminal, but in war ... are completely reasonable. What sane person would even think of killing a child? But if you have good reason to expect that child might be carrying a bomb... war is terrible for everyone. THAT is one of the many reasons we have to be very, very careful before declaring war and allowing our soldiers to go off an fight.

In some ways, those who order the wars ARE "worse" than the terrorist who straps a bomb onto himself because he believes it will send him to heavan or even just save his family and town. BUT, that is where we, the public come into play. WE are supposed to be the ultimate check on our politicians and, yes, even the "elite". Ultimately, WE are the ones who vote.

I did not vote for George W., but many people did. Many people voted for every politician in office who approved the war. So, we cannot lay the blame for what they do without also pointing that finger at ourselves, to some small extent. We certainly cannot blame the soldiers who are doing what is asked, as long as they stay within the limits set forth by the Geneva convention and so forth. Unfortunately we have a commander in chief who feels those conventions too limiting. Ultimately, it will be the soldiers of tommorrow and we ourselves who will pay for that.

[b.k. barunt]

Terrorists are real. They bomb civilians every day. They use asymmetrical warfare, which means that they respond with 100 times more force than necessary and cause as much collateral damage as possible. They do not respect the territorial integrity of other countries and murder with impunity (calling it assassination). They consume 0ver 60% of the world's resources with only 25% of its population, and subvert any other government that attempts to change that situation.

Can you guess who they are?

Well said.


Honibaz

[dcowboys055]

You responded twice to my post juan, and neither time did your response concern what I said.

First you responded as if I was arguing with you (and I do disagree with you) which I was not, I was pointing out that there are way too many threads about conspiracies and that there should be a subforum for them. Mr. Constructive? Lol, I'm not a mod, what would you like me to do about making that subforum, I just pointed out how it's necesary.

And then you responded a second time with "Have you even started a thread? and is that what you're upset about? Hey, some stick, some die" What does me starting threads have to do with what I was talking about at all? But since you're interested, yes, somewhere in my 2500 posts I'm sure I've started a thread. And I don't care how many theads you want to start, but I would like them put in a different forum with the other conspiracies so that I can go to the offtopics and not have to search through to find something other than a conspiracy.

[PLAYER57832]

Terrorists are real. They bomb civilians every day. They use asymmetrical warfare, which means that they respond with 100 times more force than necessary and cause as much collateral damage as possible. They do not respect the territorial integrity of other countries and murder with impunity (calling it assassination). They consume 0ver 60% of the world's resources with only 25% of its population, and subvert any other government that attempts to change that situation.

Can you guess who they are?

Well said.


Honibaz

True, but it is easy to point your finger at someone else. The hard part is accepting our own personal responsibility in this... even when it is only a very small part.

[TheProwler]

Noninterventionism is the only key to success in dealing with all the problems we have today. The United States has all the power it needs to pull all its troops back and protect our borders here at home. Our "Empire" is much too big and we are spread way to thin. Our economy can not and WILL NOT support these foreign wars for much longer. We got to get out, and get out now! We can't wait any longer.

You know, that all sounds so simple.

Think about this Conquer Club game we play. Say, the Classic map. Say you have North America. Say you sit tight while the other 5 players duke it out over the rest of the world. One player is killed. Then another. Etc. Then it is just you...against the world.

This is a possible reality: USA pulls out of foreign countries and it helps short term. But long term, you sit back and watch other powers get too organized and too strong. And then they crush you.

I really have to think there are some good minds working behind the idiot politicians who understand the situation a lot better than we can (because they are privy to more information). And these people are greatly influencing the decisions of the politicians.

Maybe I'm wrong - there is no way to prove either opinion right or wrong.

But I really don't think we know everything that is relevant to USA's military operations.

I agree that there is a balance and USA might be overextending. But Americans are a lot like Canadians and overindulge in luxury items, etc.. How many home have 3 or 4 big screen TV's? Heck, I've got 8 decent computers and 2 people. 3 cars and 2 people. 4 bedrooms and 2 people. 4 toilets and 2 people. I eat like a freakin' pig. I could certainly live less expensively and so could most Americans. My point is this: USA could cut back on its military expenditures, but there are a lot of other things USA/Americans could cut back on too. And that would also help the economy.

It is, and has been for a long time, quite popular to criticize USA's methods of dealing with foreign nations. I am just not sure we get the whole story. And I think that sometimes the outcome of a "failed" military operation is better than the outcome would be in a military-absent situation.

[b.k. barunt]

The basic definition of a terrorist is an individual operating apart from a government in an undeclared war. I say we did not need a new definition, they are plain criminals.

The US elite and politicians may be guilty of many things, but they don't lay bombs, kidnap or shoot people directly.

"An individual operating apart from a government . . ." How about individuals operating under a part of a government that habitually keeps Congress in the dark under the guise of "National Security"? Reagan's "I have no recollection" makes me ashamed of this country every time i hear it in my memory. Ever hear of Mei Lai? Over 400 villagers massacred under orders from the top brass that sanctioned what was called the Phoenix Program by the press, and PRU (Provisional Reconnaissance Units) by the CIA and ONI. PRU had one purpose - assassinations. I speak from firsthand knowledge, and not from anything i read. Does this not fall under your own definition of terrorism?

Now as far as "laying bombs", "kidnapping" or "shooting people directly", are you really that naive? In Special Forces Training, trainees are shown hour upon hour of atrocities perpetrated by our enemies, from the Holocaust to the Vietnam War (by now i'm sure they've added some Arab antics). The point of this litany of horror was "if this is what our enemies are capable of, then ANYTHING we do is justified." This is accompanied by weeks of training to "lay bombs", "kidnap", and "shoot people directly", although they prefer blades and garrottes to bullets as a rule. Much more direct, mind you.

President Kennedy ordered the covert assassination of South Vietnamese president Diem, and was himself assassinated by some of the same people. Anthony Herbert, the most decorated soldier of the Korean War, wrote a book called "Soldier", part of which dealt with his experience in Viet Nam as a lieutenant colonel with the 173rd Airborne in Viet Nam. He attempted to bring charges against a U.S. general for war crimes, and as a result watched his military career go down the toilet. The book is now out of print - imagine that.

So no, the "U.S. elite and politicians do not lay bombs, kidnap, or shoot people directly". They do it indirectly by using patriotic young men who they have brainwashed to do their bidding. Some of us learned from our mistakes, while others went on to become part of the "elite and politicians" so they could continue the process. Go figure.


Honibaz

[TheProwler]

Terrorists are real. They bomb civilians every day. They use asymmetrical warfare, which means that they respond with 100 times more force than necessary and cause as much collateral damage as possible. They do not respect the territorial integrity of other countries and murder with impunity (calling it assassination). They consume 0ver 60% of the world's resources with only 25% of its population, and subvert any other government that attempts to change that situation.

Can you guess who they are?

Well said.

Too bad those numbers don't jive with reality.

[b.k. barunt]

Close enough that you knew who he was talking about . . . well anyway, that most of us knew who he was talking about.


Honibaz

[PLAYER57832]

The basic definition of a terrorist is an individual operating apart from a government in an undeclared war. I say we did not need a new definition, they are plain criminals.

The US elite and politicians may be guilty of many things, but they don't lay bombs, kidnap or shoot people directly.

"An individual operating apart from a government . . ." How about individuals operating under a part of a government that habitually keeps Congress in the dark under the guise of "National Security"? Reagan's "I have no recollection" makes me ashamed of this country every time i hear it in my memory.

I did not say our government was faultless, far from it. I said we have some responsibility for what it does ...even if that is nothing more than teaching our children truth.

Ever hear of Mei Lai? ...

And worse ... say, even in the past few years.

Does this not fall under your own definition of terrorism?

It is war, which is worse in that it affects far more people.

So no, the "U.S. elite and politicians do not lay bombs, kidnap, or shoot people directly". They do it indirectly by using patriotic young men who they have brainwashed to do their bidding.

.. and the people of the United States, when they simply watch and do/say nothing, keep voting these people in ...are indirectly resposible as well. That was my point [/quote]

[TheProwler]

Close enough that you knew who he was talking about . . . well anyway, that most of us knew who he was talking about.

USA has less than 5% of the World's population.

So he was off by what? More than 400%?

That's not close enough.

An exaggeration like that just undermines his point.

And over 60% of what resources? Peat moss? Sea water?

Vagueness like that just undermines his point.

I can understand the kids buying into such out-of-touch "estimates"...but at your age???


Now, I am not saying that mpjh was talking about America necessarily. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and hope he says he meant something like "necktie collectors" or some other covert group of evildoers that "consume 0ver 60% of the world's resources with only 25% of its population".

[PLAYER57832]

Close enough that you knew who he was talking about . . . well anyway, that most of us knew who he was talking about.

USA has less than 5% of the World's population.

So he was off by what? More than 400%?

That's not close enough.

An exaggeration like that just undermines his point.

And over 60% of what resources? Peat moss? Sea water?

Vagueness like that just undermines his point.

I can understand the kids buying into such out-of-touch "estimates"...but at your age???


Now, I am not saying that mpjh was talking about America necessarily. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and hope he says he meant something like "necktie collectors" or some other covert group of evildoers that "consume 0ver 60% of the world's resources with only 25% of its population".

The most often quoted percentages are that the top 2% of the wealthy consume over 80% of its resources. Resources includes energy, minerals, timber, fish agricultural products, etc.

The exact figures vary.
At any rate, to deny that the US consumes far more than its "share" of resources is to deny reality. WE DO contribute much, but not as much as we consume AND our nation has supported policies that are part of why other countries stay poor. Support policies and people -- people like Saddam Hussein, Castro, etc. ... all very well known (well documented) used US help to gain power.

For a really interesting tale, though try looking into the history of Hawaii. We ousted a sitting monarche because, essentially, the head of Dole wanted us to.

[jay_a2j]

Terrorists are real. They bomb civilians every day. They use asymmetrical warfare, which means that they respond with 100 times more force than necessary and cause as much collateral damage as possible. They do not respect the territorial integrity of other countries and murder with impunity (calling it assassination). They consume 0ver 60% of the world's resources with only 25% of its population, and subvert any other government that attempts to change that situation.

Can you guess who they are?

What? Arabs? You racist pig. There are terrorists all over the globe, in many different nationalities and tongues. But they are not trying to kill Americans. (unless you happen to be of the variety who are over THERE trying to kill them)


Stop racism NOW!

[Frigidus]

Terrorists are real. They bomb civilians every day. They use asymmetrical warfare, which means that they respond with 100 times more force than necessary and cause as much collateral damage as possible. They do not respect the territorial integrity of other countries and murder with impunity (calling it assassination). They consume 0ver 60% of the world's resources with only 25% of its population, and subvert any other government that attempts to change that situation.

Can you guess who they are?

What? Arabs? You racist pig. There are terrorists all over the globe, in many different nationalities and tongues. But they are not trying to kill Americans. (unless you happen to be of the variety who are over THERE trying to kill them)


Stop racism NOW!

Wow, even jay has a sense of humor.