Why Host Mafia on Conquer Club?

[pimpdave]

Seriously, this website has nothing to do "mafia". Shouldn't the cliquish brats who want to pat each other on the back and pretend they are special and important just go somewhere else and waste another site's server space?

It'd be one thing if their games benefited the entire community, but since the Jim Crow South is alive and well in the Mafia Games sub-forum, I wonder if it's really something that helps make Conquer Club a better place (I'm leaning towards a resounding "NO" currently, and don't see my position changing so long as the "exclusive" nature of mafia and the superior attitude of the participants remains intact -- that doesn't include everyone individually, but there is a very real atmosphere of exclusivity. Everyone should be allowed to play, just like everyone should be allowed to vote, or learn to read, or fall in love and get married).

So, consider this a solicitation for opinions thread. I might even make a poll later.

I'd be especially curious to know what the most powerful of mods think. While having no opinion is a valid answer, everyone please share substantial and specific reasons why you have an opinion, even if it is not having one.

[nagerous]

If you want to know the context of this thread it is all here:

viewtopic.php?f=213&t=68265&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30


Pimpdave made some mistakes in a newbie game so LSU said he would put him in backup in a 25 player game, because he wanted it to be of experienced players and have no-one screw up... so pimpdave throws a temper tantrum and tells everyone to "f*ck off" repeatedly... then in the newbie game he goes and tells everyone his role and says he quits, thus ruining the newbie game for everyone.

Just thought I'd explain the context for the strop pimpdave is throwing.

Mafia is welcome to everyone and not just a clique, this is shown by the fact we run regular newbie games to get people to join and also welcome new players into our games, as shown by LSU allowing newer players like drake and hologram into his big game.

[owenshooter]

It'd be one thing if their games benefited the entire community, but since the Jim Crow South is alive and well in the Mafia Games sub-forum, I wonder if it's really something that helps make Conquer Club a better place.

that is an amazing and shockingly powerful statement and allusion to something very nasty in american history. do you have any examples to back these allegations up? i have avoided mafia, because i just didn't think i'd enjoy them (much like how i avoided the "uber nerd creepy" forums for my first 6 months on CC), and this statement makes me wonder even more about it now than before. so, i think you should put up some examples of what you are claiming is going on in the mafia world, before i, personally, and maybe many others, can comment honestly... thanks.-0

p.s.-plus members of my clan and a few well liked prominent cc'ers i enjoy are active in mafia, and i find it hard to believe they would partake in something as egregious as what you are claiming.

[Ditocoaf]

a) The site has a "Forum Games" page. Games of Mafia became popular in that forum. Eventually mafia became so popular that, to make it easier to navigate, they separated out the mafia games from the rest. To "stop hosting mafia" on this site, you'd not only delete that forum, but then ban a particular harmless game from the Forum Games section.

b) They're hardly "cliqueish," in fact, they're actively looking for a larger player base, and figuring out how to make themselves more accessible. I don't see them acting exclusive, or not allowing anyone to play... Every once and a while there'll be a game with a preference for experienced players (due to the advanced nature of the game), but the vast majority of games are open to all players, and in fact "newbie games" are becoming more and more popular, which seek out new people.

[Dancing Mustard]

Why do Mafia players get their own forum when debaters are repeatedly denied the same thing? If Mafia players ought not be able to spam up the other forums with their favourite pass-time, then why not have a troll-wars section of FW to shunt all of the bell-ends into? Why isn't there a 'bragging nerds' section of GD to stop "My score is 2 points higher than a minute ago!!!11 CONGRATS!!!!ONE" threads from spamming this place up?

I don't have a problem with mafia games per se, but I am curious as to why its dedicated its own private sub-forum when other areas of the site would benefit from the same sort of measures?

[pimpdave]

The first two responders aren't answering the question, you're just flaming me.

I didn't flame anyone. I spoke in general terms. It'd be appreciated if you'd do the same.

The question again: WHY HOST MAFIA ON CONQUER CLUB?

Please remain on topic.

[Ditocoaf]

Why do Mafia players get their own forum when debaters are repeatedly denied the same thing? If Mafia players ought not be able to spam up the other forums with their favourite pass-time, then why not have a troll-wars section of FW to shunt all of the bell-ends into? Why isn't there a 'bragging nerds' section of GD to stop "My score is 2 points higher than a minute ago!!!11 CONGRATS!!!!ONE" threads from spamming this place up?

I don't have a problem with mafia games per se, but I am curious as to why its dedicated its own private sub-forum when other areas of the site would benefit from the same sort of measures?

The "Forum Games" forum was about 50% mafia, and very crowded... so the new forum was made to split things up.

We actually treat this split differently (or at least I did, when I was there more often) than intended: Any games that included sign ups first, and included long-term play, went in the "Mafia" forum, and any games that were just one-post randomness, went in the "Forum Games" forum.

[nagerous]

It'd be one thing if their games benefited the entire community, but since the Jim Crow South is alive and well in the Mafia Games sub-forum, I wonder if it's really something that helps make Conquer Club a better place.

that is an amazing and shockingly powerful statement and allusion to something very nasty in american history. do you have any examples to back these allegations up? i have avoided mafia, because i just didn't think i'd enjoy them (much like how i avoided the "uber nerd creepy" forums for my first 6 months on CC), and this statement makes me wonder even more about it now than before. so, i think you should put up some examples of what you are claiming is going on in the mafia world, before i, personally, and maybe many others, can comment honestly... thanks.-0

p.s.-plus members of my clan and a few well liked prominent cc'ers i enjoy are active in mafia, and i find it hard to believe they would partake in something as egregious as what you are claiming.

He only made the "Jim Crow" comment because in each day, the town choose someone to lynch so to speak, through a system of voting, hoping that they catch mafia. It has no racist connotations.

[pimpdave]

b) Every once and a while there'll be a game with a preference for experienced players (due to the advanced nature of the game), but the vast majority of games are open to all players.

Why aren't these "I'm so experienced and important" games advertised as such? Why am I not allowed access to a part of the site that is visible to all, and, more importantly, that I am paying to support? I understand the concept of clans, but these are games we're talking about. And if it is not a come one come all, or a first come first serve, then it is discriminatory and a detriment to the site.

Furthermore, it's why mafia isn't accessible and has no place on this site. I appreciate and understand your opinion, I just don't agree.

And nagerous, speak for yourself...

I'm referring to the fact that they exclude people, not lynching.

[nagerous]

The first two responders aren't answering the question, you're just flaming me.

I didn't flame anyone. I spoke in general terms. It'd be appreciated if you'd do the same.

The question again: WHY HOST MAFIA ON CONQUER CLUB?

Please remain on topic.

edited but should pimpdave be allowed to flame people so much in our forum? Read the thread in the first post to understand the real context


How is this not flaming?

[pimpdave]

Nagerous, you are completely off topic, and resorting to ad hominem, I think, in an attempt to get this thread locked or moved to flame wars.

PLEASE REMAIN ON TOPIC. THIS IS TO BE DISCUSSED IN GENERAL TERMS.

Please feel free to create your own thread to complain about me elsewhere. This thread is NOT about me, it is about Mafia. Please stop attempting to derail this thread.

Also, you apparently didn't catch the obvious reference to Half Baked.

[nagerous]

b) Every once and a while there'll be a game with a preference for experienced players (due to the advanced nature of the game), but the vast majority of games are open to all players.

Why aren't these "I'm so experienced and important" games advertised as such? Why am I not allowed access to a part of the site that is visible to all, and, more importantly, that I am paying to support? I understand the concept of clans, but these are games we're talking about. And if it is not a come one come all, or a first come first serve, then it is discriminatory and a detriment to the site.

Furthermore, it's why mafia isn't accessible and has no place on this site. I appreciate and understand your opinion, I just don't agree.

And nagerous, speak for yourself...

I'm referring to the fact that they exclude people, not lynching.

Mafia games have been invite only for years.. when I first started playing mafia, I wasn't invited to play certain games and I accepted that because I was a newbie back then. Like any website, CC here for instance has "private games" people don't want a newbie chef coming into their games and screwing it up for the rest of the players. You have to win the respect of the mafia gaming community first before you're allowed in games, with the more experienced players. If we let every new player come into every game, often when the new players deadbeat, the standard of gaming would be much lower and hence why LSU was suspicious of letting you in straight away, considering you're only previous experience was a newbie game, where you had screwed up. And that's even worse, comparing us to fucking jim crow 'cos you got excluded. What is wrong with you?

[owenshooter]

The first two responders aren't answering the question, you're just flaming me.

huh? i am one of the first two responders, and i simply asked you for examples before i could weigh in, because you made some pretty lofty allegations. and that is somehow flaming you? i actually opened the door for you to give specific examples to explain your allegations. i did not call you a name, i did not defend mafia (i have very cursory understanding of what it is, thanks to wikipedia), and i certainly was on topic. well, since you don't seem to want a civil discourse, i'll stay out of your thread. how dare i ask questions in the hopes of understanding your initial post...-0

[Ditocoaf]

The question again: WHY HOST MAFIA ON CONQUER CLUB?

For that matter, why host Flame Wars, Off Topic, Forum Games, and every single clan forum?

b) Every once and a while there'll be a game with a preference for experienced players (due to the advanced nature of the game), but the vast majority of games are open to all players.

Why aren't these "I'm so experienced and important" games advertised as such?

Most, in the first post, will say that due to the complicated nature of the game preference is given to experienced players.

Why am I not allowed access to a part of the site that is visible to all, and, more importantly, that I am paying to support?

Not everyone's allowed to post in the Final Foundry; you have to work your way up from a basic draft first. This is admittedly much less important, but the analogy works: you have access to many many mafia games; there are only a few that limit themselves, and if you really wanted to put in the time to play a bunch of mafia, you'd soon be able to join those as well.

I understand the concept of clans, but these are games we're talking about. And if it is not a come one come all, or a first come first serve, then it is discriminatory and a detriment to the site.

Not really...

Furthermore, it's why mafia isn't accessible and has no place on this site. I appreciate and understand your opinion, I just don't agree.

They try to be accessible, but not every newbie can start out on the most complex games. And you don't have to agree. However, your sole opinion against everyone you disagree with, isn't enough to present a good case for removing mafia, however.

[pimpdave]

Mafia games have been invite only for years.. when I first started playing mafia, I wasn't invited to play certain games and I accepted that because I was a newbie back then. Like any website, CC here for instance has "private games" people don't want a newbie chef coming into their games and screwing it up for the rest of the players. You have to win the respect of the mafia gaming community first before you're allowed in games, with the more experienced players. If we let every new player come into every game, often when the new players deadbeat, the standard of gaming would be much lower and hence why LSU was suspicious of letting you in straight away, considering you're only previous experience was a newbie game, where you had screwed up. And that's even worse, comparing us to fucking jim crow 'cos you got excluded. What is wrong with you?

Oh, so you're making this about you! I see why your panties are all in a bunch.

Please stop using language designed purely to get this moved to FW. Also, please try to be less sycophantic in everything you do, it's kind of distracting from your complete lack of substantiated opinions.

Finally, if games are "exclusive" and "open only to people deemed worthy of entry", they should be advertised as such, or moved off site to an exclusive location.

Private games here have passwords on them. One doesn't have to publicly apply for entry and then be publicly refused. That's Jim Crow baloney and has no place in Conquer Club. At least, not in my opinion.

Please feel free to continue sharing your opinions, but drop this ad hominem garbage and get ON TOPIC.

[Optimus Prime]

I don't have a problem with mafia games per se, but I am curious as to why its dedicated its own private sub-forum when other areas of the site would benefit from the same sort of measures?

Because wicked bitched and moaned incessantly about it until it happened. It was more annoying than you can possibly imagine, and completely childish on her part if you want an honest opinion. Personally, I don't think they should have split the forum off, it was operating fine (from outward appearances) without a dedicated forum.

[nagerous]

Seriously, this website has nothing to do "mafia". Shouldn't the cliquish brats who want to pat each other on the back and pretend they are special and important just go somewhere else and waste another site's server space?

It'd be one thing if their games benefited the entire community, but since the Jim Crow South is alive and well in the Mafia Games sub-forum, I wonder if it's really something that helps make Conquer Club a better place (I'm leaning towards a resounding "NO" currently, and don't see my position changing so long as the "exclusive" nature of mafia and the superior attitude of the participants remains intact -- that doesn't include everyone individually, but there is a very real atmosphere of exclusivity. Everyone should be allowed to play, just like everyone should be allowed to vote, or learn to read, or fall in love and get married).

So, consider this a solicitation for opinions thread. I might even make a poll later.

I'd be especially curious to know what the most powerful of mods think. While having no opinion is a valid answer, everyone please share substantial and specific reasons why you have an opinion, even if it is not having one.

Answering your original question, what would happen do you think would happen to CC if they just went "ooh lets delete the whole mafia forum" 'cos pimpdave threw a strop. There would be riots and trolling and spam is what would happen, because they got rid of a tiny bit of server space.. Remember what happened when spamalot got deleted? Also, a lot of us are good at risk as well as mafia, we play both and twill agrees with me about it being a good positive contributing area of the forum, much better than flame wars actuallly. We should just delete flame wars eh? Is it really something that makes Conquer Club a better place???

[pimpdave]

The first two responders aren't answering the question, you're just flaming me.

huh? i am one of the first two responders, and i simply asked you for examples before i could weigh in, because you made some pretty lofty allegations. and that is somehow flaming you? i actually opened the door for you to give specific examples to explain your allegations. i did not call you a name, i did not defend mafia (i have very cursory understanding of what it is, thanks to wikipedia), and i certainly was on topic. well, since you don't seem to want a civil discourse, i'll stay out of your thread. how dare i ask questions in the hopes of understanding your initial post...-0

That was a typo. Should have been first responder.

[pimpdave]

we play both and twill agrees with me about it being a good positive contributing area of the forum, much better than flame wars actuallly. We should just delete flame wars eh? Is it really something that makes Conquer Club a better place???

FW doesn't really positively contribute to the site. I agree with you on that.

But at least everyone is allowed to participate...

[Ditocoaf]

Please feel free to continue sharing your opinions, but drop this ad hominem garbage and get ON TOPIC.

Sorry, pimpdave, but I think you're the one going for the ad-hominem. "I see why your panties are all in a bunch." "...please try to be less sycophantic in everything you do." "...your complete lack of substantiated opinions."

But back on topic... have you referred to my last post yet? I'm hoping that one answers some of your questions...

[nagerous]

we play both and twill agrees with me about it being a good positive contributing area of the forum, much better than flame wars actuallly. We should just delete flame wars eh? Is it really something that makes Conquer Club a better place???

FW doesn't really positively contribute to the site. I agree with you on that.

But at least everyone is allowed to participate...

Wasn't there just a publicly open tournament that Prowler and Chaosfactor weren't allowed to enter?

[Ditocoaf]

we play both and twill agrees with me about it being a good positive contributing area of the forum, much better than flame wars actuallly. We should just delete flame wars eh? Is it really something that makes Conquer Club a better place???

FW doesn't really positively contribute to the site. I agree with you on that.

But at least everyone is allowed to participate...

Wasn't there just a publicly open tournament that Prowler and Chaosfactor weren't allowed to enter?

Nope, actually, both allowed, neither chose to enter. But there have been private things before.

[pimpdave]

Please get back on topic. I'd be happy to continue bickering with everyone by PM, but this thread has been marred by consistent attempts to derail it and take it off topic (thanks nagerous!).



I would have to go ahead and consider this thread completely successful, thanks everyone!

[Dancing Mustard]

I don't have a problem with mafia games per se, but I am curious as to why its dedicated its own private sub-forum when other areas of the site would benefit from the same sort of measures?

Because wicked bitched and moaned incessantly about it until it happened. It was more annoying than you can possibly imagine, and completely childish on her part if you want an honest opinion. Personally, I don't think they should have split the forum off, it was operating fine (from outward appearances) without a dedicated forum.

Wow...

Somebody just came out with it in the second reply. I thought I was going to have to troll a lot harder before somebody gave me the answer that I wanted to hear.

Thanks Optimus. Although, now I don't really know what to do with myself in this thread anymore.

Vote wicked

[Ditocoaf]

Please get back on topic. I'd be happy to continue bickering with everyone by PM, but this thread has been marred by consistent attempts to derail it and take it off topic (thanks nagerous!).



I would have to go ahead and consider this thread completely successful, thanks everyone!

Please, please stop focusing on the worst aspects of the thread and responding to those... could you at least take a look at my last post on the previous page?