Conquer Club

stop inflation

Suggestions that have been archived.

Moderator: Community Team

Re: stop inflation

Postby EagleofGreenErth on Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:31 pm

Well, I did my part to stop inflation! >_>
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class EagleofGreenErth
 
Posts: 1055
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:41 pm

Re: stop inflation

Postby porkenbeans on Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:31 pm

GO SULLY !!! =D>
Image
User avatar
Lieutenant porkenbeans
 
Posts: 2546
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:06 pm

Re: stop inflation

Postby Timminz on Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:32 pm

Sully makes great points, but forgot (at least) one other effect of inflation. New recruits are no longer starting with the average amount of points. Whether or not this is a problem is debateable.
User avatar
Captain Timminz
 
Posts: 5579
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:05 pm
Location: At the store

Re: stop inflation

Postby Jeff Hardy on Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:35 pm

Timminz wrote:Sully makes great points, but forgot (at least) one other effect of inflation. New recruits are no longer starting with the average amount of points. Whether or not this is a problem is debateable.

i would say it is a problem
General Jeff Hardy
 
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:22 am
Location: Matt Hardy's account, you can play against me there

Re: stop inflation

Postby Timminz on Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:39 pm

EagleofGreenErth wrote:Well, I did my part to stop inflation! >_>

No. If you had quit, you would've reduced inflation, as your points would have been removed entirely from the system. You're still playing, and therefore did absolutely nothing towards increasing, or decreasing inflation.

There are currently only 2 things that counter inflation. One is for people to stop playing entirely, while having more than 1000 points, thus removing more points from the system than they brought in originally. The other, is for someone with more than 1000 points to be punished with a point reset, thus removing the difference from the system.
User avatar
Captain Timminz
 
Posts: 5579
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:05 pm
Location: At the store

Re: stop inflation

Postby Timminz on Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:40 pm

Jeff Hardy wrote:
Timminz wrote:Sully makes great points, but forgot (at least) one other effect of inflation. New recruits are no longer starting with the average amount of points. Whether or not this is a problem is debateable.

i would say it is a problem

As would I, but that does not preclude debate on the subject.
User avatar
Captain Timminz
 
Posts: 5579
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:05 pm
Location: At the store

Re: stop inflation

Postby e_i_pi on Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:46 pm

Timminz wrote:
Jeff Hardy wrote:
Timminz wrote:Sully makes great points, but forgot (at least) one other effect of inflation. New recruits are no longer starting with the average amount of points. Whether or not this is a problem is debateable.

i would say it is a problem

As would I, but that does not preclude debate on the subject.

This is something I thought about too Timminz, but then I thought 'Well, the average player here is above average compared to the average new recruit', or at least I believe so. I get surprised by stripes pretty often still, and some are simply diamonds in the rough.
User avatar
Captain e_i_pi
 
Posts: 1775
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:19 pm
Location: Corruption Capital of the world

Re: stop inflation

Postby Timminz on Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:52 pm

e_i_pi wrote:
Timminz wrote:
Jeff Hardy wrote:
Timminz wrote:Sully makes great points, but forgot (at least) one other effect of inflation. New recruits are no longer starting with the average amount of points. Whether or not this is a problem is debateable.

i would say it is a problem

As would I, but that does not preclude debate on the subject.

This is something I thought about too Timminz, but then I thought 'Well, the average player here is above average compared to the average new recruit', or at least I believe so. I get surprised by stripes pretty often still, and some are simply diamonds in the rough.


True enough. However, the more we travel down the inflation road (the more time passes), the more of a disadvantage new recruits are starting with. Someone who joined very early in CC's life, started with the average score, while people joining now are starting at 200 points (or probably more) below average. I won't argue that new recruits are generally of "average" skill, but they are being punished, in a way, for being late to the party, so to speak.
User avatar
Captain Timminz
 
Posts: 5579
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:05 pm
Location: At the store

Re: stop inflation

Postby EagleofGreenErth on Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:53 pm

O RLY? Then what happened to the 1000+ extra points I had when I asked for a point reset, Mr?
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class EagleofGreenErth
 
Posts: 1055
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:41 pm

Re: stop inflation

Postby Timminz on Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:56 pm

EagleofGreenErth wrote:O RLY? Then what happened to the 1000+ extra points I had when I asked for a point reset, Mr?

Thousand pardons sir. I was under the, apparently mistaken, impression that you had been caught point-dumping recently.
User avatar
Captain Timminz
 
Posts: 5579
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:05 pm
Location: At the store

Re: stop inflation

Postby EagleofGreenErth on Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:58 pm

Timminz wrote:
EagleofGreenErth wrote:O RLY? Then what happened to the 1000+ extra points I had when I asked for a point reset, Mr?

Thousand pardons sir. I was under the, apparently mistaken, impression that you had been caught point-dumping recently.


Well, to some extent... but I only went from 3000 to around 2200. Then asked for my reset. So yeah.... Some points were taken out of the system. :lol:
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class EagleofGreenErth
 
Posts: 1055
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:41 pm

Re: stop inflation

Postby sully800 on Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:46 pm

That's it! Let's all get point resets repeatedly to take points out of circulation! :lol:

Kidding of course.

Excellent point about new users starting below average! That makes it even harder to climb the ladder to the top (well, it makes the first few rungs easier but there are more rungs to climb)
User avatar
Major sully800
 
Posts: 4978
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:45 pm
Location: Bethlehem, Pennsylvania

Re: stop inflation

Postby e_i_pi on Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:57 pm

sully800 wrote:That's it! Let's all get point resets repeatedly to take points out of circulation! :lol:

Kidding of course.

Excellent point about new users starting below average! That makes it even harder to climb the ladder to the top (well, it makes the first few rungs easier but there are more rungs to climb)

It's a double edged sword sully (and Timminz). You start lower down the ladder, but if you are on par with the average CCer (ie, should be about 1200?pts) then you will get on average 15-20% more points than them, and climb to your true level soon enough.

Inflation is a problem, but not in the way a lot of people see it. The only real way around it is to do a scoreboard adjust every so often. If I suggested anything, it would be:
A) Once a month have a look at all players who has become inactive for 3-4 months (ie - 12-16 weeks)
B) Total their score differences from 1000, multiply by the number of (12-16wk) inactive players, divide by the number of active players
C) Minus or add that many points from every active CCer
No doubt someone will shoot holes through this. I've barely started thinking about this sort of thing, because I don't see it getting implemented any time soon if at all. But that's the general path you'd have to take. Basically measure how many 'defunct' points have entered the system in the past month, using a (say) 3 month measuring stick for inactivity.
User avatar
Captain e_i_pi
 
Posts: 1775
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:19 pm
Location: Corruption Capital of the world

Re: stop inflation

Postby porkenbeans on Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:03 pm

sully800 wrote:That's it! Let's all get point resets repeatedly to take points out of circulation! :lol:

Kidding of course.

Excellent point about new users starting below average! That makes it even harder to climb the ladder to the top (well, it makes the first few rungs easier but there are more rungs to climb)
Yes you will have disparages like this when ever you implement a point collecting system. Those coming late to the party will always be less advantaged.
A percent or ratio system is the only real way to overcome this problem.
Image
User avatar
Lieutenant porkenbeans
 
Posts: 2546
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:06 pm

Re: stop inflation

Postby GrimReaper. on Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:50 am

cicero wrote:... interested user hat on.

Jeff Hardy wrote:every game, one point gets taken off the winner
The problem with that is that it is over kill. It actually causes hyper deflation.

Assume that 3,000,000 games have been played to date. (Yes I know that the current game numbers are up around 3,800,000, but I've given a generous allowance for games never started.)

OK, now take out one point from the system for every game ever played: 3,000,000 points.
That's enough to completely wipe out the scores of a large proportion of users.

Even if we don't apply the change retrospectively and we start from "now", in 3,000,000 games time the outcome will be the same.



the beauty of the thing is that this is not the economy we can experiment and then but things back the way they were!
Image
When the first Atom bomb test was complete a colleague of Oppenheimer said: "What an Awesome and Foul display of Power." a moment later he added, "Now we are all sons of bitches"
User avatar
Private GrimReaper.
 
Posts: 913
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:15 pm
Location: everywhere

Re: stop inflation

Postby PepperJack on Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:28 am

e_i_pi wrote:It's a double edged sword sully (and Timminz). You start lower down the ladder, but if you are on par with the average CCer (ie, should be about 1200?pts) then you will get on average 15-20% more points than them, and climb to your true level soon enough.

Inflation is a problem, but not in the way a lot of people see it. The only real way around it is to do a scoreboard adjust every so often. If I suggested anything, it would be:
A) Once a month have a look at all players who has become inactive for 3-4 months (ie - 12-16 weeks)
B) Total their score differences from 1000, multiply by the number of (12-16wk) inactive players, divide by the number of active players
C) Minus or add that many points from every active CCer
No doubt someone will shoot holes through this. I've barely started thinking about this sort of thing, because I don't see it getting implemented any time soon if at all. But that's the general path you'd have to take. Basically measure how many 'defunct' points have entered the system in the past month, using a (say) 3 month measuring stick for inactivity.


Using pi's idea as a jumping point, I came up with an admittedly rudimentary idea.

Total points in the system / Active users = Points per user
Points per user / 1000 = Rate of inflation (could be deflation as well)
User points / Rate of inflation = New score

So with made up numbers and me as an example we get this...
big number/ 20223 - approx. 1200 (stolen from above)
1200 / 1000 = 1.2
2135 / 1.2 = 1779

Applied to all users this would put the scoreboard back in line with site creation. The first adjustment would be massive, but if there were upkeep adjustments every 1 or 3 or whatever months, subsequent adjustments would be far smaller.

Alternatively, people like their points so this could be done separately as an Inflation Adjusted Scoreboard or even just Inflation Adjusted Points in profiles to keep public outcry minimized.

Essentially, its pi's idea, but it removes the waiting period of inactivity. Higher ranks will still have absurd piles of points but I think that is perfectly acceptable seeing as how they, if they are good at how they approach the scoreboard, will have points work up to them.

Good or not so much?
Game 3960030

Going on deployment, be back someday.

Sorry for deadbeating out of games.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class PepperJack
 
Posts: 251
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:31 pm
Location: In transit.

Re: stop inflation

Postby Downey on Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:04 am

everybody who's in the top 250 must get point resets....

problem solved!

joking!
User avatar
Private Downey
 
Posts: 174
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:19 am
Location: Vancouver

Re: stop inflation

Postby ctgottapee on Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:14 am

while something for point inflation needs to be done, i'm not sure this idea works

maybe we should look at how inflation, like economic or otherwise, is controlled or adjusted for in other systems and use those working solutions as a model.

solving the ranking class sytem is fairly easy though. to better use the titles of the ranking system (ie General, Major, Private) it should be more like real life where the amount of each is controlled and based on overall rank amongst the total population. so the top X people are General, and the next 1000 are Majors, and so on down the line. this does fix the inflation problem as far as titles go and gives you an easy to figure rank based on the whole system. the real military is like this, only so many of each class is needed. over time, the limits of each rank could be adjusted for the total population. we would also probably need to delist the masses at the bottom so as not to affect the rank of current players. retired players should keep their ranks - you can adjust the total amount allowed into a rank to account for the retired members of that rank.

as far as point inflation goes, a one time reset could put things back in order, whatever the decided order is. this doesn't really solve the problem, it just rolls back some of the accumlated damage, and pisses a whole lot of people off in the process.

some fixes for point inflation could include
Living Minimum Wage: the starting point value for newbs increases [this obviously adds to inflation issues too]
Progressive Tax Brackets: point taxes are taken and higher ranks pay more, lower ranks may even get a small rebate. taxes would be based on the amount of new points (newbs entering the system)
Point Fees: small point fees to enter games or tournaments
Charity: ability to give a small percentage of points away annually
'cHANCE favors the prepared mind' Louis Pasteur | Latest Tourney Wins:
Don't Take Too Long 2x2, Freemium with a Premium doubles tournament -RunnerUp
User avatar
Lieutenant ctgottapee
 
Posts: 122
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:31 pm
Location: north of the DMZ

Re: stop inflation

Postby lt.pie on Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:34 am

Deduct 50% of everyone's points at a certain time every year.
Image
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class lt.pie
 
Posts: 1236
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:48 pm
Location: Sunshine Coast,Queensland.

Re: stop inflation

Postby e_i_pi on Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:48 am

lt.pie wrote:Deduct 50% of everyone's points at a certain time every year.

Or just take the simple average with 1000. So 5000 becomes 3000, 500 becomes 750, etc
User avatar
Captain e_i_pi
 
Posts: 1775
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:19 pm
Location: Corruption Capital of the world

Re: stop inflation

Postby Artimis on Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:02 am

Speaking as someone who has 'come late to the party'(fashionably late of course! 8-) ) I'm content to leave things as they are because I don't mind in the slightest that I have more rungs to climb. It'll just be all the more fun for me! :D
==================================================
This post was sponsored by Far-Q Industries.

Far-Q Industries: Telling you where to go since 2008.
User avatar
Captain Artimis
 
Posts: 810
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:09 am
Location: Right behind ya!!! >:D

Re: stop inflation

Postby ctgottapee on Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:52 pm

the problem with a simple more flat tax style is those at the top will pay a hefty price, and that is just not going to fly with the paying hoards at the top.

mabye point inflation isn't really a problem as long as the ranks are adjusted for the comparitive inflation. it is an easier pill to swallow to see your rank reduced in a relative fashion compared to everyone else rather than see earned points disappear - ie the guy next to you with the same points also reduces or gains rank equivalently.

it would also make rank titles relative to determine where a player stands

e_i_pi wrote:
lt.pie wrote:Deduct 50% of everyone's points at a certain time every year.

Or just take the simple average with 1000. So 5000 becomes 3000, 500 becomes 750, etc
'cHANCE favors the prepared mind' Louis Pasteur | Latest Tourney Wins:
Don't Take Too Long 2x2, Freemium with a Premium doubles tournament -RunnerUp
User avatar
Lieutenant ctgottapee
 
Posts: 122
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:31 pm
Location: north of the DMZ

Re: stop inflation

Postby PepperJack on Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:21 am

Isn't the rank the good your currency of points can buy? I think you may have empirically defined point inflation. I still say flat tax, even with all my fluke points.
Game 3960030

Going on deployment, be back someday.

Sorry for deadbeating out of games.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class PepperJack
 
Posts: 251
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:31 pm
Location: In transit.

Re: stop inflation

Postby FarangDemon on Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:26 am

This is a great idea, can combat point inflation and thwart known harvesting techniques.

I would recommend that the -1 to victor's score be changed to -2 for any player/team who beats someone double their or their team's score. This would make harvesting of low ranked players in quads games much less rewarding, though still feasible.
User avatar
Brigadier FarangDemon
 
Posts: 700
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:36 am

Re: stop inflation

Postby FabledIntegral on Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:30 am

Would this not hurt 1v1 players more than it would hurt 8-man players? Or do you propose that if you win an 8-man you'd win 7 less points than usual? Forgive me if this was addressed, but it's at 4 pages now.
Major FabledIntegral
 
Posts: 1085
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:04 pm
Location: Highest Rank: 7 Highest Score: 3810

PreviousNext

Return to Archived Suggestions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users