Forced to be Christian

[dellmanlego]

During the dark ages catholics had a monopoly on the world and much of history of theirs in that time is a lie... They would force people to recant (convert or be torcherd to death). Ti was horable times. Forced religion is horrible!

[Napoleon Ier]

(with the french it was just laziness)

1 part laziness here, 99 parts Communist Treason there... we can debate it, but anyway, it'd be for another thread.

[muy_thaiguy]

During the dark ages catholics had a monopoly on the world and much of history of theirs in that time is a lie... They would force people to recant (convert or be torcherd to death). Ti was horable times. Forced religion is horrible!

We're not saying it wasn't. What we are saying is that at the time and place, and even for centuries before, that was the norm, looking at it from a historian's point of view. mpjh refuses to see it that way, and only chooses to see atrocities done by religions and not by secular governments. It gets complicated (in a way) after that.

[CrazyAnglican]

During the dark ages catholics had a monopoly on the world and much of history of theirs in that time is a lie... They would force people to recant (convert or be torcherd to death). Ti was horable times. Forced religion is horrible!

Yes MTG makes a very good point.

I would agree with you on the sentiment that forcing anyone to adopt a different ideology is wrong. What we've moved onto though is that while religion and secular society were both certainly a part of the maltreatment of others (torture, execution, etc.) in antiquity, religion hasn't been really that big a factor in the past two hundred years or so (on a consistent basis even before that really). Secular governments (while there is nothing per se wrong with being secular) have wracked up a much more frightening body count over the past century than anything the mideval Church could match.

Iliad would say (and has) that it's secularism and freedom of religion that brought about this change. I'd counter that it happened well before that. The rise of literacy; the translation of scripture into the vulgar tongues (it's the historical term not what I'd choose ot call them but whaddaya do); and the Protestant Reformation that began to bring about this change in the churches. All of this predates the Age of Enlightenment and they all played a part (along with the printing press) in bringing Enlightenment thingking about.

By contrast to secular governments (which rely on standing armies), religions have come to the point that most Christians really seem to believe that most expressions of Christianity are inspired by God and are therefor okay. Very little in the way of Protestant/Catholic violence in the world aside from Norhtern Ireland (that's quite a different story anyway). The OP himself quoted a poll that said most Christian's believed that at following least one other religion could lead to eternal life. Although he wrongly took that to mean that people weren't as committed to their faith; instead of merely seeing it as a testament to the tolerance that religious people have been developing for centuries.

[PLAYER57832]

Actually, it was teh anti-semitism of Christians that made the Holocaust possible. Certainly Eisenhower and all the major leaders in the US acquiesced in that horror by not acting on the information they had.

The Nazi's were the political party that instigated the Holocaust. It's pretty well documented by their own records. Among the dead were many Christians. When the Allies took over an area in which a camp was operating; that camp was shut down, the prisoners were cared for, and the local populace was forced to go through and clean up in the aftermath. This is well documents and your counterclaim has little if any documentation because it's simply not true.

Despite revisionist claims this is one of the best documented atrocities of the 20th Century. Records from both sides (Nazi records of the organization and operation & Allied pictures of the results and shutting down of the camps) clearly show who was responsible. It has never been clearer to me that you don't want to be bothered with facts because your mind is made up. Yet in case anyone else is reading this and is interested in the story this is a good place to start.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/whats-new/

It is easy for us to look back and say "how clear it all seems". We, after all have history books to tell us about it!

But if we forget that the people then are not so differant from we today ... then we have to ask ourselves what crimes WE are overlooking. That is a far more pertinent question.

As for religion and the Nazis. Yes, there was anti-semitism all around, but more important was plain old apathy and just not seeing. It takes effort to look, to fight to see. The Nazis were NOT Christian, were anti-Christian, though at times they used the church, particularly the Lutheran church (sadly). Roman Catholics ... and many others have been indicted for not doing enough AND for being oppressed themselves. No one really has clean hands in this.

We can look bak all we want, but if we pretend that it was clear and easy back then ... that is what will put us more at risk for a repeat. and THAT is one event we do not need!

[CrazyAnglican]

Absolutely, constant vigilance is the only way to even attempt keeping it from becoming more prevalent tahn it is right now. Nobody, as of yet, has mentioned the situation in North Korea. The prison camps there are just as bad as any, but the situation for the general citizenry is pretty bad.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3071466/


The treatment of prisoners in the camps is an outright abomination

Soon Ok Lee, once a senior cadre of the ruling Communist Party, testified that while she was in the Kaechon political prison camp, she observed the atrocious execution of five or six elderly Christians who refused to give up their belief in Christ.

Their slaughter occurred at a cast-iron factory that was part of the prison compound. The Christians were lined up and told to renounce their faith and accept instead the North Korean ideology of Juche (self-reliance).

"The selected prisoners all remained silent at the repeated command of conversion. The security officers ... killed them by pouring molten iron on them one by one," related Soon.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/art ... 0250.shtml

[cowboyz]

No one can force anyone to be a Christian. They can make you go to church and outwardly do the artificial things that Christians do, but no man can change another mans heart.
It's called free will.

Even people "forcing" you to accept Christianity in the superficial sense of outwardly portraying to be a Christian, is debatable. You have a choice in that as well. You could simply choose death. History is full or martyrs.

[mpjh]

Fortunately, history is also full of people that saved their families, saved their culture, and passed on a great heritage by going underground and faking the mainstream. Some of those people were my ancestors, and I personally am glad that they were not martyrs. However, I will not forget what so-called Christians did to them.

[cowboyz]

However, I will not forget what so-called Christians did to them.

Those people weren't Christians.

[mpjh]

Oh yes they are. Starting with the Pope on down.

[cowboyz]

Oh yes they are. Starting with the Pope on down.

Guess all depends on your definition of Christian. I go by Biblical Christian and the pope/Catholics def are NOT Biblical Christians.

[mpjh]

Yeah, well the rest of the world sure see them as Christians, and of course, they would be surprised to find out they are not Christians.

[Martin Ronne]

(with the french it was just laziness)

1 part laziness here, 99 parts Communist Treason there... we can debate it, but anyway, it'd be for another thread.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

[mpjh]

Absolutely, constant vigilance is the only way to even attempt keeping it from becoming more prevalent tahn it is right now. Nobody, as of yet, has mentioned the situation in North Korea. The prison camps there are just as bad as any, but the situation for the general citizenry is pretty bad.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3071466/


The treatment of prisoners in the camps is an outright abomination

Soon Ok Lee, once a senior cadre of the ruling Communist Party, testified that while she was in the Kaechon political prison camp, she observed the atrocious execution of five or six elderly Christians who refused to give up their belief in Christ.

Their slaughter occurred at a cast-iron factory that was part of the prison compound. The Christians were lined up and told to renounce their faith and accept instead the North Korean ideology of Juche (self-reliance).

"The selected prisoners all remained silent at the repeated command of conversion. The security officers ... killed them by pouring molten iron on them one by one," related Soon.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/art ... 0250.shtml

Yeah, yeah, and the Iraqis pulled infants out of their hospital incubators and threw them on the floor killing them, according to testimony before the US Congress. Too bad it turned out to be false testimony by a daughter of Kuwaiti royalty.

Sorry, not buying it.

[Martin Ronne]

Catholicism, was developed by the Romans, in the sense of, "if ya can't beat 'em, join 'em." Saying they are Christian, does not make them Christian any more than Bill clinton saying "I did not sleep with that woman" makes him faithful to his wife. Christianity began in 33A.D. and is not bound to any living man alive today.

[mpjh]

OK, so Catholics are not Christians, is that correct?

[snufkin]

Christianity started going downhill with Paulus..
The Roman mumbojumbo version is blasphemy - Crucifixes and endlessly repeated silly rituals inherited from the paranoid Romans and guilt used as a tool to control people.

lots of good stuff in the bible though.. personally I think this is a bit that survived from true christianity:

..when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men..
..when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your father, who is unseen. Then your father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling.. ..for your father knows what you need before you ask him

supposedly Matthew quoting Jesus

but humans must always be such show-offs and try to prove themselves better than others
We are silly walking monkeys desperately trying to establish or reconfigure our flock hierarchy.. blame "humanity" not JC - He actually wanted to change some of that crap and make you contemplate things with your god not a bloody religious monster.

[muy_thaiguy]

Catholicism, was developed by the Romans, in the sense of, "if ya can't beat 'em, join 'em." Saying they are Christian, does not make them Christian any more than Bill clinton saying "I did not sleep with that woman" makes him faithful to his wife. Christianity began in 33A.D. and is not bound to any living man alive today.

And people call Christians judgmental.
So, what you are saying is, is that one can only be a Christian if they were alive 2000 years ago? Might as well say one can't be a Greek because they were not born in Sparta or not Canadian because they are not from the Inuits or anything else like that. It is simply ridiculous to be that selective. And no, it was not the "if you can't beat em, join em" type of thing. Many Romans and others had become Christian, and it took about 3 centuries in order for Christianity to be a tolerated religion, let alone the religion of the empire. Please, learn the history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity#Christianity_legalized

[Napoleon Ier]

Absolutely, constant vigilance is the only way to even attempt keeping it from becoming more prevalent tahn it is right now. Nobody, as of yet, has mentioned the situation in North Korea. The prison camps there are just as bad as any, but the situation for the general citizenry is pretty bad.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3071466/


The treatment of prisoners in the camps is an outright abomination

Soon Ok Lee, once a senior cadre of the ruling Communist Party, testified that while she was in the Kaechon political prison camp, she observed the atrocious execution of five or six elderly Christians who refused to give up their belief in Christ.

Their slaughter occurred at a cast-iron factory that was part of the prison compound. The Christians were lined up and told to renounce their faith and accept instead the North Korean ideology of Juche (self-reliance).

"The selected prisoners all remained silent at the repeated command of conversion. The security officers ... killed them by pouring molten iron on them one by one," related Soon.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/art ... 0250.shtml

Yeah, yeah, and the Iraqis pulled infants out of their hospital incubators and threw them on the floor killing them, according to testimony before the US Congress. Too bad it turned out to be false testimony by a daughter of Kuwaiti royalty.

Sorry, not buying it.

What, you're just "not buying" the overwhelming evidence for any crimes committed based on an atheist philosophy? Not the Stalinist Purges, the Great Leap Forward, or even the Holocaust?

Well that seems to me like the perfectly rational position of a rational individual trying to weigh up the facts and come to a reasoned conclusion based on a multi-faceted and analytical breakdown of the evidence who's not at all trying to desperately cling to an absurd worldview where capitalists and religions are the enemy no matter what...

[cowboyz]

Catholicism, was developed by the Romans, in the sense of, "if ya can't beat 'em, join 'em." Saying they are Christian, does not make them Christian any more than Bill clinton saying "I did not sleep with that woman" makes him faithful to his wife. Christianity began in 33A.D. and is not bound to any living man alive today.

Right on...I can run around yelling that I'm pink all day long, but fact remains that I'm not.

OK, so Catholics are not Christians, is that correct?

Yea mate, Catholics are pretty far from Biblical Christians. The Roman Catholic church is probably one of the most evil empires in existence.

Catholicism, was developed by the Romans, in the sense of, "if ya can't beat 'em, join 'em." Saying they are Christian, does not make them Christian any more than Bill clinton saying "I did not sleep with that woman" makes him faithful to his wife. Christianity began in 33A.D. and is not bound to any living man alive today.

And people call Christians judgmental.
So, what you are saying is, is that one can only be a Christian if they were alive 2000 years ago? Might as well say one can't be a Greek because they were not born in Sparta or not Canadian because they are not from the Inuits or anything else like that. It is simply ridiculous to be that selective. And no, it was not the "if you can't beat em, join em" type of thing. Many Romans and others had become Christian, and it took about 3 centuries in order for Christianity to be a tolerated religion, let alone the religion of the empire. Please, learn the history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity#Christianity_legalized

Actually , there were plenty of "true" Christians in the Roman empire. But Christianity was adopted as the official religion of the Roman empire by Constantine, who according to most scholars was not in fact a Christian himself. He just used it as a tool to help him gain power.

And I think you maybe misunderstanding what Martin said about Christianity not being bound to any living man alive today. As far as I read it, I think he was referring to the Pope not having any set of magical keys that allows him to be the head of the Christian church. I dont think he was saying you have to have lived 2000 years ago to be Christian...thats just silly.

Christianity started going downhill with Paulus..
The Roman mumbojumbo version is blasphemy - Crucifixes and endlessly repeated silly rituals inherited from the paranoid Romans and guilt used as a tool to control people.

Exactly, it's all nonsense. Meaningless rituals is what the Bible preaches against. But yet Roman Catholics seem to think that those rituals are Christianity. Crazy.

[mpjh]

Hmmm, didn't know this. Catholics are not Christians, you say. So who is a Christian in your view?

[Napoleon Ier]

Catholics are not Christians, you say.

Normally I'd dismantle this claim with extreme prejudice, but just for the comedy value of mpjh humiliating himself as his worldview is imploded by some half-baked fallacious Genevan arguments, I'm going to let it roll...

[mpjh]

Catholicism, was developed by the Romans, in the sense of, "if ya can't beat 'em, join 'em." Saying they are Christian, does not make them Christian any more than Bill clinton saying "I did not sleep with that woman" makes him faithful to his wife. Christianity began in 33A.D. and is not bound to any living man alive today.

Right on...I can run around yelling that I'm pink all day long, but fact remains that I'm not.

OK, so Catholics are not Christians, is that correct?

Yea mate, Catholics are pretty far from Biblical Christians. The Roman Catholic church is probably one of the most evil empires in existence.

Catholicism, was developed by the Romans, in the sense of, "if ya can't beat 'em, join 'em." Saying they are Christian, does not make them Christian any more than Bill clinton saying "I did not sleep with that woman" makes him faithful to his wife. Christianity began in 33A.D. and is not bound to any living man alive today.

And people call Christians judgmental.
So, what you are saying is, is that one can only be a Christian if they were alive 2000 years ago? Might as well say one can't be a Greek because they were not born in Sparta or not Canadian because they are not from the Inuits or anything else like that. It is simply ridiculous to be that selective. And no, it was not the "if you can't beat em, join em" type of thing. Many Romans and others had become Christian, and it took about 3 centuries in order for Christianity to be a tolerated religion, let alone the religion of the empire. Please, learn the history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity#Christianity_legalized

Actually , there were plenty of "true" Christians in the Roman empire. But Christianity was adopted as the official religion of the Roman empire by Constantine, who according to most scholars was not in fact a Christian himself. He just used it as a tool to help him gain power.

And I think you maybe misunderstanding what Martin said about Christianity not being bound to any living man alive today. As far as I read it, I think he was referring to the Pope not having any set of magical keys that allows him to be the head of the Christian church. I dont think he was saying you have to have lived 2000 years ago to be Christian...thats just silly.

Christianity started going downhill with Paulus..
The Roman mumbojumbo version is blasphemy - Crucifixes and endlessly repeated silly rituals inherited from the paranoid Romans and guilt used as a tool to control people.

Exactly, it's all nonsense. Meaningless rituals is what the Bible preaches against. But yet Roman Catholics seem to think that those rituals are Christianity. Crazy.

So how are "bibilical Christians" different from Christians?

[OnlyAmbrose]

Yea mate, Catholics are pretty far from Biblical Christians.

Oh boy if this was on-topic we'd be having a little chat, sir.

[mpjh]

I ask again, how are "biblical christians" different from christians?