Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

[LED ZEPPELINER]

The new scroll looks better and more natural. Unfortunatly I feel the current scroll look a little to 'cut and paste' for the time being this isn't the biggest of concerns.

I'm confused by that statement... how can something look more natural and 'cut and paste' at the same time I may be misreading or missing sommat but... oh I don't know

i am interpreting this as the edges right now are flat and sharp, they should flow a littl better and be more round, but that is just what i think

[NemesisChild]

The new scroll looks better and more natural. Unfortunatly I feel the current scroll look a little to 'cut and paste' for the time being this isn't the biggest of concerns.

I'm confused by that statement... how can something look more natural and 'cut and paste' at the same time I may be misreading or missing sommat but... oh I don't know

i am interpreting this as the edges right now are flat and sharp, they should flow a littl better and be more round, but that is just what i think

ok
I'll look into that, not sure how you would have me fix that, it is meant to look like a scroll whch have flat edges ... they are paper/Papyrus after all.

[LED ZEPPELINER]

http://library.thinkquest.org/CR0210200/ancient_greece/scroll3.jpg if you look here, you can see that the ends of the wood come to a gentle stop and are rounded and such

[theButterfly]

Okay, here's me trying to be helpful.

The original concept for this map was for players to start on the outside and work their way toward the center, correct? And now you've been moving away from that concept, because there didn't seem to be enough of an incentive for people to get to the temple? I'd like to get back to that idea, if possible.

What about the Temple of Poseidon being able to bombard docks and ports? That would make the rush for the centre very interesting! With the +2 autodeploy it would become an important postion to hold, whilst at the same time not as large a bonus as the other continents. This would then make holding a continent very important. The Temple of Poseidon would be under siege because of the bonuses granted by holding some of the islands. Rather than concentrating on merely picking on a single player, the emphasis would be placed on holding the temple whilst stopping all other players.

With this gameplay update, Team games could be very interesting!!

This was a great idea that apparently hasn't gone anywhere. Here's sort of what I'm thinking right now:

-Remove the +3 bonus for the temple island
-Add two more attack routes between Ys and the temple island
-The T.O.P. can bombard docks (but not ports)
-The T.O.P. can bombard a limited number of specific other regions in the five outer islands
-Players start in the five outer islands; everything else starts neutral

This gives the temple a specific purpose as a powerful weapon, rather than just another bonus region. The reason I said the temple shouldn't be able to bombard ports is because I think that the battle in the inner parts of the city should be about trying to take control of the temple, which will then help to turn the tide of the battle in the outer regions.

[NemesisChild]

http://library.thinkquest.org/CR0210200/ancient_greece/scroll3.jpg if you look here, you can see that the ends of the wood come to a gentle stop and are rounded and such

Ahh I get it now, you mean the wooden bit not the paper itself...
My bad, that is something I can (ahem... Should be able to... will attempt to..) fix.

I have been looking into the borders around the Islands that Gimil mentioned as well, I have tried a few things and should have a sample to post (although I'm not sure about it)

Nem

[Premier2k]

This was a great idea that apparently hasn't gone anywhere. Here's sort of what I'm thinking right now:

-Remove the +3 bonus for the temple island
-Add two more attack routes between Ys and the temple island
-The T.O.P. can bombard docks (but not ports)
-The T.O.P. can bombard a limited number of specific other regions in the five outer islands
-Players start in the five outer islands; everything else starts neutral

This gives the temple a specific purpose as a powerful weapon, rather than just another bonus region. The reason I said the temple shouldn't be able to bombard ports is because I think that the battle in the inner parts of the city should be about trying to take control of the temple, which will then help to turn the tide of the battle in the outer regions.

I agree with that Butterfly, I still particulary like the idea of everyone starting on the outer islands, however, it was pointed out that many players wouldn't bother going for the T.O.P as they would rather use their armies to take out an enemy territory rather than waste them on a neutral. Which I can kinda see their point of view. I would still like to investigate this option further though!

I need to get Oaktown to delete our poll as we cannot post another until this has done, then I shall put it to the vote!

Thanks for your comments!

Premier2k

[Premier2k]

VERSION 11 is here!!

Nemesischild has made changes to the edges of the islands (first draft) and the scroll. Please let us know what you think!

Click image to enlarge.

Premier2k

[NemesisChild]

List of changes

1. added land outlines.. and i like them thanks gimil!

Right now your land goes straight into your water. If you add a nice border around your land it may/may not make your textures look a little better, if not it may help changing the texture less of a chore.

2. redid scroll stick thing end!

things its made me notice...

A) is it me or do the boats now look a tad off, not as bright as the rtest of the map?
B) the outlines do make the terrrain look better!
C) the territ borders look a bit rough next to the smooth outlines


As for Game play
I too like the idea of an objective / giving some significance to TOP, will talk this over with Prem again and see what other comments we get, I do seee that alot of people will ignore it though if it is all Nuetral (except the outside islands.
How about we just make the Temples and the boats Nuetral with the suggetsions by Butterfly implemented.
Also was thinking we should remove the bridge between Mariny and Thule? to force peopl into the inner islands?

Anyway keep the comments coming

Oh and look out for us in the Foundry Newsletter.

Nem.

[Premier2k]

List of changes

1. added land outlines.. and i like them thanks gimil!

Right now your land goes straight into your water. If you add a nice border around your land it may/may not make your textures look a little better, if not it may help changing the texture less of a chore.

2. redid scroll stick thing end!

things its made me notice...

A) is it me or do the boats now look a tad off, not as bright as the rtest of the map?
B) the outlines do make the terrrain look better!
C) the territ borders look a bit rough next to the smooth outlines


As for Game play
I too like the idea of an objective / giving some significance to TOP, will talk this over with Prem again and see what other comments we get, I do seee that alot of people will ignore it though if it is all Nuetral (except the outside islands.
How about we just make the Temples and the boats Nuetral with the suggetsions by Butterfly implemented.
Also was thinking we should remove the bridge between Mariny and Thule? to force peopl into the inner islands?

Anyway keep the comments coming

Oh and look out for us in the Foundry Newsletter.

Nem.

1. Yes thanks Gimil, after sleeping on it and looking again at it. I'm starting to like the outlines

2.
a) Yes, the boats do look rather faint when compared to the rest of the map.
b) Indeed they do!
c) Agreed! I like your draft version you sent me last night!

GAMEPLAY
YES! Removing the bridges to force people to the outside is a good idea! Remove all outside bridges so that each continent has to go into the centre to progress. We'll talk more today about that!


Premier2k

[Premier2k]

OK Version 11 is already here!!

Changes Made
1. New Title
2. New Territ Borders
3. New Boats
4. Moved some continent borders to allow for new outline

Click image to enlarge.

Premier2k

[Premier2k]

Hi all,

Version 12

Changes made
1. New Title ( again )
2. New scrap of Scroll in Bottom Right

Big Img

Click image to enlarge.

Small image


Premier2k

[LED ZEPPELINER]

on the small map its hard to read the scrap of scroll

[Premier2k]

We did notice that, but only on really small resolutions it seems to be a big problem. It's not actually part of the map, only 'decoration' if you like. I don't think we will be changing that.

Thanks for the comment Led!

Premier2k

[NemesisChild]

on the small map its hard to read the scrap of scroll

I agree and I've had a look at it
I should have an improvement on it in v13, when i get a chance to get it to you to post


here are the things I specifically want comments on pls:

1. The scrap of text in the corner , improvement or not. (pls compare to a version with no scrap there)
2. the new title.. better, worse go back to the original.
3. Pls tell me how much you all love my new boats... ( you bloody well better like em it took ages to draw the buggers )
4. The Signatures, where they are or should I drop them to the bottom left corner to fill the gap?

5. GamePlay gameplay gameplay.

Speaking of Game play:
Here is our latest idea

1. All players start only on the outer Islands ( yes we are back to that again)

2. We will remove all bridges between continents so there is no connection between any of the outer islands (this is to force players to have to use the inner islands & boats to get between them.). Bridges that are inside(i.e Not connecting different continents ) will stay.

3. All Territories in following continents will start game Nuertal: Meropis, Mu, Vineta, Numenor, Ys, Temple, Boats (v13 image will show this).

4. Boats will no longer be able to Bombard other boats.

5. Temple Isle will not have a bonus but will auto deply +3 to Temple Of Poseidon(T.O.P.) when all 5 territories are held (I'm not to sure about this idea and is dependant on game engine )

6. T.O.P can Bombard boats ( as well as attack Temple 1-4), Poseidon is the God of the sea after all.

Attacks are suggested as follows
A dock can attack connected dock
Any port can attack any boat.
Any boat can attack any Port.
Ports CANNOT attack ports.
T.O.P Can Bombard but not Conquer Boats


Comments on game play are really required PLEASE !!
We are really trying to create something a little different here and want as much input as we can get ! Even if you don't like our ideas please say so! We promise not to get deffenisive ... much!
Nem

[theButterfly]

2. We will remove all bridges between continents so there is no connection between any of the outer islands (this is to force players to have to use the inner islands & boats to get between them.). Bridges that are inside(i.e Not connecting different continents ) will stay.

I have mixed feelings about this. If the middle islands are easy to conquer (keep the number of neutrals low) and provide easy bonuses, then you shouldn't need to "force" players to use them. I kind of like the way it is now, where some of them are connected, but others are not.

4. Boats will no longer be able to Bombard other boats.

5. Temple Isle will not have a bonus but will auto deply +3 to Temple Of Poseidon(T.O.P.) when all 5 territories are held (I'm not to sure about this idea and is dependant on game engine )

6. T.O.P can Bombard boats ( as well as attack Temple 1-4), Poseidon is the God of the sea after all.

I disagree with this. If the only thing the temple can do is bombard boats, then players have almost no reason to go farther inward than the middle islands. And anyway, I would think that a small island nation far away from the mainland would be well within Poseidon's power.

Comments on game play are really required PLEASE !!
We are really trying to create something a little different here and want as much input as we can get !

Here are some sort of random things I've been thinking about the past couple days:

-(Similar to Arms Race!) The temple can bombard all territories in the outer and middle islands but resets to neutral at the beginning of every turn.
-(Like Egypt: Valley of the Kings) The temple can one-way attack certain territories in the outer islands.
-(Sort of similar to Oasis) You get bonuses for holding specific single terts. The temple can bombard bonus terts.
-(Sort of similar to the artillery in Waterloo) Each of the five temple areas can bombard terts with matching icons. Together they can bombard almost the entire map.

None of these ideas seem quite right, though. It'd be nice to see something unique come out of this map if possible.

[Premier2k]

I disagree with this. If the only thing the temple can do is bombard boats, then players have almost no reason to go farther inward than the middle islands. And anyway, I would think that a small island nation far away from the mainland would be well within Poseidon's power.

I like removing the bridges from the outside, I think we'll go with that.

Here are some sort of random things I've been thinking about the past couple days:
(Similar to Arms Race!) The temple can bombard all territories in the outer and middle islands but resets to neutral at the beginning of every turn.

Don't like this, this would stop players going for the centre.

(Like Egypt: Valley of the Kings) The temple can one-way attack certain territories in the outer islands.

I like this idea! Attack or just bombard. I would probably say bombard not attack. What do you think?

(Sort of similar to Oasis) You get bonuses for holding specific single terts. The temple can bombard bonus terts.

No, I don't like this idea.

(Sort of similar to the artillery in Waterloo) Each of the five temple areas can bombard terts with matching icons. Together they can bombard almost the entire map.

Now, this idea really interests me! Will talk this one over with Nemesischild

Some great ideas there Butterfly!

Premier2k

[Premier2k]

Version 13 is here, this is the final version. The only graphical changes made now will be related to gameplay, scroll details and minimap information for example. We are specifically looking for GamePlay related comments only. However, if you spot something glaringly wrong, please don't hesitate to let us know.

Version 13 FINAL!

Changes made
1. New Attacks explained
2. New Fonts color on scroll and scrap
3. New icons for temples 2 & 4
4. Fixed lyonesse text
5. Removed outer connecting bridges

The complete map!

Click image to enlarge.

GamePlay

All outer territories will be divided up amongst players at the start of the game. All others will remain neutral
There are no killer nuetrals.

Any port can assault any boat
Any boat can assault any port
A dock can assault the connected dock

Temple 4 can bombard any port
Temple 2 can bombard any dock

The Temple of Poseidon can bombard any boat

[theButterfly]

I would probably say bombard not attack. What do you think?

Agreed. Bombardment makes more sense for this map.

I have to say I like what you've done with temples 2 & 4 (except that the icons are reversed in the legend). This is much more sensible than most of what I came up with.

The one problem I have with it is that you've made the center temple the least powerful of the three, when it should be the opposite. The only thing that the boats do is connect ports. Players will rarely leave more than one troop on a boat, because it makes more sense to place them on actual choke points (ports). Even if a player is trying to hold all boats for the +4 bonus, bombardment is pointless because any port can already attack any boat. The only two purposes I can think of for this bombardment are to prevent opponents from being able to see your ports in fog of war games, and to keep someone's forces disconnected so they have to attack a boat (with one neutral on it) before they can fortify. This may justify allowing boats to bombard each other, but it shouldn't be the main purpose of the central location.

Alternatively, you could let the T.O.P. bombard one territory in each of the outer islands. Since the symbol for the T.O.P. is an upward-pointed trident, maybe the symbol for its targets could be a downward-pointed trident.

I also noticed an issue I didn't think of before when you were talking about removing bridges. Shouldn't the outer islands generally have at least as many connections as the average middle island? This would make sense, considering how much bigger they are. But each of the middle islands has three connections, while none of the outer ones have more than two. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, Mariny went from three connections down to one--for ten territories. This will make them ridiculously easy to hold, and the bonuses for them will have to be cut way down.

Basically, what I'm saying is that I really think you need to keep at least some bridges connecting the outer islands. If not, you can always add additional targets for the T.O.P. in these islands; but this means that they will be extremely easy to hold in the early game and almost impossible to hold later on, meaning players will probably stop using them, and you probably want people to use the entire map.

[NemesisChild]

I would probably say bombard not attack. What do you think?

Agreed. Bombardment makes more sense for this map.

I have to say I like what you've done with temples 2 & 4 (except that the icons are reversed in the legend). This is much more sensible than most of what I came up with.


The one problem I have with it is that you've made the center temple the least powerful of the three, when it should be the opposite. The only thing that the boats do is connect ports. Players will rarely leave more than one troop on a boat, because it makes more sense to place them on actual choke points (ports). Even if a player is trying to hold all boats for the +4 bonus, bombardment is pointless because any port can already attack any boat. The only two purposes I can think of for this bombardment are to prevent opponents from being able to see your ports in fog of war games, and to keep someone's forces disconnected so they have to attack a boat (with one neutral on it) before they can fortify. This may justify allowing boats to bombard each other, but it shouldn't be the main purpose of the central location.

Alternatively, you could let the T.O.P. bombard one territory in each of the outer islands. Since the symbol for the T.O.P. is an upward-pointed trident, maybe the symbol for its targets could be a downward-pointed trident.

I also noticed an issue I didn't think of before when you were talking about removing bridges. Shouldn't the outer islands generally have at least as many connections as the average middle island? This would make sense, considering how much bigger they are. But each of the middle islands has three connections, while none of the outer ones have more than two. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, Mariny went from three connections down to one--for ten territories. This will make them ridiculously easy to hold, and the bonuses for them will have to be cut way down.

Basically, what I'm saying is that I really think you need to keep at least some bridges connecting the outer islands. If not, you can always add additional targets for the T.O.P. in these islands; but this means that they will be extremely easy to hold in the early game and almost impossible to hold later on, meaning players will probably stop using them, and you probably want people to use the entire map.

Butterfly, thanks for pointing my minor mishap with the icons.. Coan't believe Prem missed it! will have to look at his future job prospects... he get paid to find that sort of stuff!!

anyway joking aside, thanks for the suggestions
heres what we have done with them
Temple 2 and temple 4 have been renamed the temple of Life ( Ankh symbol), and Temple of Zeus (lightening bolt), the other 2 territories are marked as 1 & 2, these will be reffered to as temple enterance 1 & 2

The temple of Zeus can bombard boats,
The Temple of life can bombard Ports
The Temple of Poseidon can bombard Docks.


I have also re-added in some bridges thanks to your logical and clear explanation
Lemuria is now connexted to Thule via a bridge
Lyonesse is connected to Mariny
Kamuri Kandam being the biggest continent is only accessible via docks.


so does the community think the game play fits the map now?

Prem should update with a version 14 at some point today/tomorrow.


the one other thing I am interested in is what people think the nuetrals should be,

here's what I think:
Inner Islands all Neutrals 3 with Ports at 4?
Boats Neutral 4
Ys Neutral 4
Temple Entrance 1 & 2 neutral 4 / 5
Temples neutral 5 ( or should theese be higher?)


Nem

[Androidz]

I find it hard to read the Legend, and the story. Could you write it in a bigger size?

I also think your names on the map could be a bit bigger size aswelll.

[NemesisChild]

I find it hard to read the Legend, and the story. Could you write it in a bigger size?

The legend has gone through many variations, we quite like this one, is it just the small map you have trouble with?
this may be a resolution issue, I have a very high resolution on my macine and have no problems?

I also think your names on the map could be a bit bigger size aswelll.

Purposely made the name small and out of the way as they are not important to the game, I se no reason to change these for now

[Androidz]

I find it hard to read the Legend, and the story. Could you write it in a bigger size?

The legend has gone through many variations, we quite like this one, is it just the small map you have trouble with?
this may be a resolution issue, I have a very high resolution on my macine and have no problems?

I also think your names on the map could be a bit bigger size aswelll.

Purposely made the name small and out of the way as they are not important to the game, I se no reason to change these for now

Its the small i have reading problems with may be resolution.

True but it if i could read it would been better but this might resoultion to.

[Blitzaholic]

awesome

I only been waiting and or asking for about 3 years now for an underwater world atlantis map

Glad we could be of service Blitz! We'll keep plowing away at this!

Premier2k

excellent work


next stop a casino map

[Premier2k]

Hi all!

Version 14 is here, this is the final version. The only graphical changes made now will be related to gameplay, scroll details and minimap information for example. We are specifically looking for GamePlay related comments only. However, if you spot something glaringly wrong, please don't hesitate to let us know.

Version 14 FINAL

Changes made
1. added bridges
2. Several gug fixes
3. Changed temple Names


The XML!
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/1/10/2261497/Atlantis.xml

The complete map!

Click image to enlarge.

[NemesisChild]

Hey all

What do you guys think now?

Gameplay :
1. Does the new system make sense?
2. What Nuetral numbers should we use?
3. can any one think of anything we might change / update to improve it?

Graphics:
1. Is the Scroll text ok; if not should I try a new font?
2. Connections; is it ok now with some bridges back in?
3. are there any other concerns or improvements or can we request a graphics stamp?

Please comment, all opinions welcome
let me know if you would play it if it goes live
let me know if you think its great, rubbish
let us know if our gameplay sucks or is an inspired piece of genius

Pretend I don't have an opinion on our work and and make my mind up for me.....