are mods disorganized or actively preserving harvesting

by **FarangDemon** on Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:15 am

There is a group of mods that control every aspect of this site that Lack has delegated to them.

Why have they tolerated a scoring system for so long that requires players to farm the lower ranked using points harvesting techniques to inflate their scores and get to the top ranks?

They have done more than just tolerate the system. They have protected it. Every suggestion that would effectively end farming and establish a scoring system where the best rise to the top of their respective game type domains is shot down or ignored (with the exception of the new restrictions to new recruits).

EVEN humble suggestions to preserve the glory of the farmer for being the best at beating raw, unskilled recruits, while at the same time creating a separate scoreboard for players that beat their peers are shot down.

Is there a debate going on between the mods on farming?
Are the mods actively suppressing/ignoring any suggestions that would reform the scoring system?
Do they just not care?
Whether or not they want to end it, Lack has made it clear he would veto their decision?

by **Kotaro** on Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:22 am

Why do you post 30 threads about the same subject, adding nothing new each time?

Fact: Farming has been reduced greatly since the new rule has been put in place.

Fact: King_Herpes, our conqueror that you seem to love to flame and insult constantly, has played very little low ranks since the rule came out. And the ones he has, have joined his 1v1 City Moguls, not him joining games against them.

Fact: The mods have warned everyone who has been accused of farming noobs.

Fact: You see noobs as everyone below a certain rank. Since this game is based on a large percentage of pure luck, that is often not the case. You see noobs where there are none.

Fact: This thread will turn into another thread that has flaming, because you refuse to listen to any logic, and you attack the "Mods that don't care", when they've done a lot, and tolerated a lot of shit from you, that they don't deserve.

by **samuelc812** on Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:26 am

Mods are only responsible for forum moderation. Lack is responsible for making any changes to gameplay and/or the scoring system. So i don't think it is the mods fault, lack chooses what suggestions to implement not the mods

. Whether it seems that the mods shoot down suggestions or not is irrelevant, the buck stops with lack if he wants it he will implement it.

by **blakebowling** on Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:44 am

Once again, I agree with Kotaro (man that was painful)

Also, maybe you should add an option to the poll that says "Faring is a farmer himself and needs to stop making threads about farming" As you seem to think that all high ranks, that play lower ranks are farming.

by **joecoolfrog** on Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:46 am

At least 50% of the top 50 do not farm or prey on noobs, I play a fair few of them regularly, as for those who do.....who cares ! Some people like to pitch their skill against the best,others get their rocks off by slowly increasing points ( which mean little in themselves ), at the end of the day we all have a pretty good idea who the solid players are and thats what really matters.

by **Night Strike** on Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:58 am

Farang, I believe you need to do a bit more research. I'm about 95% certain lack has posted in various public threads about some of the problems with several of the various suggestions to combat point farming (like the no points for new recruits). A few months ago he ran several of the numbers for some of the alternate systems and they had pitfalls at certain point outcomes. I suggest running a search of all of lack's posts on alternate point systems and posting anything you find here. He has spent time on it in the past, but I doubt it's something he thinks on daily.

by **CaptainMoo** on Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:06 am

mmm I usually winge on about a lot of changes on here but I gotta say I think the point system is pretty much spot on.

If king herpes, as our leader, for example played noobs, he would have to win about 15-1 at least to increase his score as any noob that "got lucky" would take loads of points of him and for every game he won he would win very little......I actually think the point system is perfect in that respect.

Also, if you post a vote option, its pointless if you do not give options that both defend and support your opinion, your options will not reflect the community as I for one disagree with all vote options...

by **Joodoo** on Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:18 am

Farang, no offense but why are you so obsessed with farming? As Kotaro has said, the admins/mods have already done a lot to reduce it, so I don't see any point on worrying so much about it...

by **owenshooter** on Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:55 am

Kotaro wrote:Why do you post 30 threads about the same subject, adding nothing new each time?

Fact: Farming has been reduced greatly since the new rule has been put in place.

Fact: King_Herpes, our conqueror that you seem to love to flame and insult constantly, has played very little low ranks since the rule came out. And the ones he has, have joined his 1v1 City Moguls, not him joining games against them.

Fact: The mods have warned everyone who has been accused of farming noobs.

Fact: You see noobs as everyone below a certain rank. Since this game is based on a large percentage of pure luck, that is often not the case. You see noobs where there are none.

Fact: This thread will turn into another thread that has flaming, because you refuse to listen to any logic, and you attack the "Mods that don't care", when they've done a lot, and tolerated a lot of shit from you, that they don't deserve.

i think this pretty much ends this thread... period... the black jesus has quoted the truth...-0

by **FarangDemon** on Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:33 am

Night Strike wrote:Farang, I believe you need to do a bit more research. I'm about 95% certain lack has posted in various public threads about some of the problems with several of the various suggestions to combat point farming (like the no points for new recruits). A few months ago he ran several of the numbers for some of the alternate systems and they had pitfalls at certain point outcomes. I suggest running a search of all of lack's posts on alternate point systems and posting anything you find here. He has spent time on it in the past, but I doubt it's something he thinks on daily.

Lack has made a total of 2 posts containing the word "farming". The first was in late December 2008 in the suggestion thread on introducing restrictions on New Recruits. The second one was the announcement of the restrictions on New Recruits in the New Year's message.

He has made a total of 6 posts containing the word "scoring". They either have to do with resolving deadbeating issues in 2006 or him explaining the scoring system to somebody.

I also read the topic of every post he has made within the last year just to make sure I wasn't missing anything. Didn't find anything about suggestions to the scoring system or farming.

Please show me these posts you are 95% sure exist.

So it would seem that all suggestions have been a complete waste of time. At least I can take solace in the fact that I have generated website traffic for Lack by entertaining trolls and flamers and enticing them to post.

by **FarangDemon** on Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:53 am

Joodoo wrote:Farang, no offense but why are you so obsessed with farming? As Kotaro has said, the admins/mods have already done a lot to reduce it, so I don't see any point on worrying so much about it...

I'm not worried. I'm one of many concerned players and mods. Two mods told me yesterday that there is a concensus to fix the system so that score is more a measure of skill than harvesting techniques.

So I'm left wondering, if there is a concensus, why hasn't anything been done for 3 years to solve the problem?

The new recruit restrictions are a step in the right direction but not a complete solution because high ranked teams can still point harvest unskilled players who have a proven track record of losing.

by **FarangDemon** on Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:05 am

CaptainMoo wrote:If king herpes, as our leader, for example played noobs, he would have to win about 15-1 at least to increase his score as any noob that "got lucky" would take loads of points of him and for every game he won he would win very little......I actually think the point system is perfect in that respect.

Good point, and I'm glad you've brought up the mathematics.

15 to 1 sounds like insurmountable odds for a farmer. However, there are map settings in which players with cooks on their teams lose 60 out of 60 games against seasoned veterans. So we would really need something like a 60 to 1 payout to discourage high ranks from harvesting them.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=75435

If your attitude is "more power to them" for winning these games, then you are in favor of a system that rewards players who systematically target cooks in trips and quads games on difficult maps. Data has shown that they will win 60 out of 60 times, the results are the inflated scores you see on the scoreboard.

A small tweak, based on historical win rates, is all it would take to neutralize these techniques.

by **owenshooter** on Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:25 am

FarangDemon wrote:Data has shown that they will win 60 out of 60 times, the results are the inflated scores you see on the scoreboard.

can you please post this data that you claim exists and has shown you that high ranked teams will win 60 out of 60 games? that is just an absurdly impossible statement. nothing is 100%, i simply don't believe that statement. the black jesus has spoken...-0

by **obliterationX** on Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:36 am

If one of the point-scoring suggestions was implemented, it could encourage point dumping for higher ranked players just to get a a good game from a low ranked clan or in-real-life mate, or it could even interfere greatly with tournaments. Having this in place would cause a headache for the creators of tournaments because the high ranks will complain against being put against low ranks. I can also see chefs bouncing around from cook -> corporal and right back down. It would interfere with more things than just farming.

by **comic boy** on Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:41 am

FarangDemon wrote:
CaptainMoo wrote:If king herpes, as our leader, for example played noobs, he would have to win about 15-1 at least to increase his score as any noob that "got lucky" would take loads of points of him and for every game he won he would win very little......I actually think the point system is perfect in that respect.

Good point, and I'm glad you've brought up the mathematics.

15 to 1 sounds like insurmountable odds for a farmer. However, there are map settings in which players with cooks on their teams lose 60 out of 60 games against seasoned veterans. So we would really need something like a 60 to 1 payout to discourage high ranks from harvesting them.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=75435

If your attitude is "more power to them" for winning these games, then you are in favor of a system that rewards players who systematically target cooks in trips and quads games on difficult maps. Data has shown that they will win 60 out of 60 times, the results are the inflated scores you see on the scoreboard.

A small tweak, based on historical win rates, is all it would take to neutralize these techniques.

But why are you so obsessed with the scoreboard, if as you suggest points are not a measure of skill then it shouldnt worry you that somebody else has more

by **JOHNNYROCKET24** on Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:08 am

"are mods disorganized or actively preserving harvesting"

I think they are doing exactly what they are being told to do. Walking the line exactly. Lack has only used the term "noob farming" towards new recruits and no other rank. So the mods will not consider anything other than new recruits as farming. So with the current rules in place, Sjnap will be permitted to play only cooks to increase his score. Its within the rules at the present time and has nothing to do with the mods being disorganized or preserving harvesting.

by **owenshooter** on Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:41 pm

JOHNNYROCKET24 wrote:So with the current rules in place, Sjnap will be permitted to play only cooks to increase his score. Its within the rules at the present time and has nothing to do with the mods being disorganized or preserving harvesting.

QFT!!! sometimes the black jesus just wants to hug JR... the black jesus feels all warm and fuzzy inside...-0

by **premio53** on Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:37 pm

Kotaro wrote:Why do you post 30 threads about the same subject, adding nothing new each time?

Fact: Farming has been reduced greatly since the new rule has been put in place.

Fact: King_Herpes, our conqueror that you seem to love to flame and insult constantly, has played very little low ranks since the rule came out. And the ones he has, have joined his 1v1 City Moguls, not him joining games against them.

Fact: The mods have warned everyone who has been accused of farming noobs.

Fact: You see noobs as everyone below a certain rank. Since this game is based on a large percentage of pure luck, that is often not the case. You see noobs where there are none.

Fact: This thread will turn into another thread that has flaming, because you refuse to listen to any logic, and you attack the "Mods that don't care", when they've done a lot, and tolerated a lot of shit from you, that they don't deserve.

I have been searching but can't seem to find anything about this new rule. Could someone explain what that rule is? Thanks.

by **owenshooter** on Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:53 pm

premio53 wrote:I have been searching but can't seem to find anything about this new rule. Could someone explain what that rule is? Thanks.

yeah, that whole New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool,thread that has been at the top of the announcements on and off since new's year is hard to see... not to mention how many times it has been quoted and linked to... sigh... here you go, call off the massive and in depth search you have been conducting!!!

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=73745

enjoy the thread... the black jesus has spoken...-0

by **Artimis** on Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:09 pm

premio53 wrote:I have been searching but can't seem to find anything about this new rule. Could someone explain what that rule is? Thanks.

It's all here: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

comic boy wrote:But why are you so obsessed with the scoreboard, if as you suggest points are not a measure of skill then it shouldnt worry you that somebody else has more

You'll find an excellent answer to that one here: Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Farang, I'm also going to agree with Kotaro( :shock:

checks to see if hell has frozen over), you seem to forget that you are just one of hundreds of thousands of players that use this site. The site admins cannot immediately implement every single suggestion that is put forward by you. The reason for this should be abundantly clear to someone as you're obviously intelligent as you seem to be. Every change implemented has an impact on every user, some lose, some gain. If a proposed change does more harm than good, then you can't reasonably expect them to implement it regardless, even if you think it's fairer than the current arrangement.

Additionally, changes to the site that affect game play require adjustment, people in general just don't like change. They bitch something rotten when the admins start tinkering with something as fundamental as the scoring formula, even if they gain out of it because it is human nature to object to change, a recent example here: FFS.

N.I.M.B.Y.'s are a perfect example of this in real life, typically around public projects like infrastructure expansion. That is why they take their time when considering a suggestion, not because they can't be bothered, but because they don't want to throw the site into chaos by moving everything from left to right and back to front. Players will get pissed off and leave the site in droves. Now stop lambasting the site staff for their 'apparent' lack of action, they have more than one user to cater for on this site.

by **premio53** on Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:18 pm

owenshooter wrote:
premio53 wrote:I have been searching but can't seem to find anything about this new rule. Could someone explain what that rule is? Thanks.

yeah, that whole New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool,thread that has been at the top of the announcements on and off since new's year is hard to see... not to mention how many times it has been quoted and linked to... sigh... here you go, call off the massive and in depth search you have been conducting!!!

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=73745

enjoy the thread... the black jesus has spoken...-0

Sorry. I was look under search, help, rules etc. It was right under my nose.

by **FarangDemon** on Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:38 am

comic boy wrote: But why are you so obsessed with the scoreboard, if as you suggest points are not a measure of skill then it shouldnt worry you that somebody else has more

I have made other contributions in sugs and bugs. I worked to recompute win rate to make it a more meaningful measurement that is not biased by number of opponents played.

This poll is just to get people to start thinking "Why haven't they fixed this obvious flaw in 3 years, while the majority of players and many mods alike agree it should be fixed?"

I'm just trying to bring home the point that 73% of the CC community want the system changed so that score is more an indicator of skill than harvesting techniques. Mods I've talked to are also in favor of fixing it, but leadership is obviously lacking. Lets discuss it.

Why calculate scores and give people meaningless ranks when we could give them ranks that are a better indicator of relative skill?

I'm perplexed that so many high ranked, competitive players can't understand this.

Lets discuss it. This is not about FarangDemon, it is about the scoring system, the opinion of 73% of CCers and many mods.

by **owenshooter** on Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:18 am

FarangDemon wrote:I'm just trying to bring home the point that 73% of the CC community want the system changed so that score is more an indicator of skill than harvesting techniques. Mods I've talked to are also in favor of fixing it, but leadership is obviously lacking. Lets discuss it..

where do you come up with these numbers? less than 3% off CC members even visit the forums, and that is a generous percentage! how do you know that close to 3/4 of the community want this changed/fixed? you are making up numbers that you simply can not back up!!! just as i asked you/challenged you to show me the "data" you claimed to have that showed teams win 60 out of 60 games on certain settings. if a 100% win percentage is possible, i have yet to see anyone master it. i just can't get on board with someone that continually makes up numbers, data, studies, research, etc... show me this 73% of the community, and please let me know how you contacted them. seriously, you can not assume that some vote in the forums is an overall indicator of how the community at large feels (i am assuming this proof you have is going to be some poll where less than 200 people voted for a change.. far from a majority on a site with over 20K members). i just don't believe half of what you say. you are a teacher, right? as my math teacher used to say to me, "show me your work". until then, you are making wild accusations without any sound evidence, other than your own mind, to back it all up... lack has taken a positive step in the correct direction, and i'm sure more will follow... the black jesus has spoken...-0

by **joecoolfrog** on Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:15 am

FarangDemon wrote:
comic boy wrote: But why are you so obsessed with the scoreboard, if as you suggest points are not a measure of skill then it shouldnt worry you that somebody else has more

I have made other contributions in sugs and bugs. I worked to recompute win rate to make it a more meaningful measurement that is not biased by number of opponents played.

This poll is just to get people to start thinking "Why haven't they fixed this obvious flaw in 3 years, while the majority of players and many mods alike agree it should be fixed?"

I'm just trying to bring home the point that 73% of the CC community want the system changed so that score is more an indicator of skill than harvesting techniques. Mods I've talked to are also in favor of fixing it, but leadership is obviously lacking. Lets discuss it.

Why calculate scores and give people meaningless ranks when we could give them ranks that are a better indicator of relative skill?

I'm perplexed that so many high ranked, competitive players can't understand this.

Lets discuss it. This is not about FarangDemon, it is about the scoring system, the opinion of 73% of CCers and many mods.

As we seem to be pulling figures out of thin air then I can state with confidence that 84.7% of the CC community completely disagree with you. Incidently win rate is already recognised in the scoring system, linked of course to size of games and strength of opponents ....in itself it is meaningless.

by **King_Herpes** on Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:00 am

I was under the impression that our moderators were actually soulless point polygamists who were easily influenced by Conquer Club lobbyists fighting to secure the passage of the site's harvesters. I'm 81.222% sure that I've read that somewhere.

Although, that could just be another one of those crazy "FarangDemon" conspiracy theories...