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2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

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Do you support Barack Obama's 2009 Stimulus Bill?

 
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2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

Postby luns101 on Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:56 pm

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"When you start asking, 'Well what is it that’s such a problem, that you’re seeing? Where’s all the waste in spending? Well, you know, you want to replace the federal fleet with hybrid cars.' Well, why wouldn’t we want to do that? That creates jobs for people who make those cars. It saves the federal government energy, it saves the taxpayers energy. Then you get the argument, 'Well, this is not a stimulus bill, this is a spending bill.ā€ What do you think a stimulus is? That’s the whole point. No, seriously. That’s the point."
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Re: 2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

Postby InkL0sed on Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:39 pm

No, seriously. That's the point.
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Re: 2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

Postby Neoteny on Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:40 pm

Srsly
Napoleon Ier wrote:You people need to grow up to be honest.
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Re: 2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

Postby targetman377 on Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:42 am

wow he could talk circles around andy thing :shock: :?
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Re: 2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

Postby Frigidus on Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:03 am

targetman377 wrote:andy thing


Really? I mean...are you...really?
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Re: 2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

Postby owenshooter on Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:06 am

targetman377 wrote:wow he could talk circles around andy thing :shock: :?

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: wow... the well has finally run dry, but keep drinking the kool-aid...-0
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Re: 2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

Postby Timminz on Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:53 am

targetman377 wrote:wow he could talk circles around andy thing :shock: :?

This is simply not true. I know Andy, personally, and he would step out of any circles immediately.
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Re: 2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

Postby jonesthecurl on Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:00 am

I think he simply means he could talk circles in our friend Andy's general vicinity.
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Re: 2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

Postby got tonkaed on Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:07 am

As is often the case, i am surprised by the more conservative result thus far when in general the board is generally assumed to be more liberal than conservative in its outspokeness.
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Re: 2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

Postby Neoteny on Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:27 am

We're just meaner and more vocal.
Napoleon Ier wrote:You people need to grow up to be honest.
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Re: 2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

Postby Nobunaga on Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:05 pm

... Your government gets to decide who has to die.

... Thanks, Dems. And you guys thought Bush was power-mad.

Feb. 9 (Bloomberg) -- Republican Senators are questioning whether President Barack Obama’s stimulus bill contains the right mix of tax breaks and cash infusions to jump-start the economy.

Tragically, no one from either party is objecting to the health provisions slipped in without discussion. These provisions reflect the handiwork of Tom Daschle, until recently the nominee to head the Health and Human Services Department.

The bill’s health rules will affect ā€œevery individual in the United Statesā€ (445, 454, 479). Your medical treatments will be tracked electronically by a federal system. Having electronic medical records at your fingertips, easily transferred to a hospital, is beneficial. It will help avoid duplicate tests and errors.

But the bill goes further. One new bureaucracy, the National Coordinator of Health Information Technology, will monitor treatments to make sure your doctor is doing what the federal government deems appropriate and cost effective. The goal is to reduce costs and ā€œguideā€ your doctor’s decisions (442, 446). These provisions in the stimulus bill are virtually identical to what Daschle prescribed in his 2008 book, ā€œCritical: What We Can Do About the Health-Care Crisis.ā€ According to Daschle, doctors have to give up autonomy and ā€œlearn to operate less like solo practitioners.ā€

Keeping doctors informed of the newest medical findings is important, but enforcing uniformity goes too far.

New Penalties

Hospitals and doctors that are not ā€œmeaningful usersā€ of the new system will face penalties. ā€œMeaningful userā€ isn’t defined in the bill. That will be left to the HHS secretary, who will be empowered to impose ā€œmore stringent measures of meaningful use over timeā€ (511, 518, 540-541)

What penalties will deter your doctor from going beyond the electronically delivered protocols when your condition is atypical or you need an experimental treatment? The vagueness is intentional. In his book, Daschle proposed an appointed body with vast powers to make the ā€œtoughā€ decisions elected politicians won’t make.

The stimulus bill does that, and calls it the Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research (190-192). The goal, Daschle’s book explained, is to slow the development and use of new medications and technologies because they are driving up costs. He praises Europeans for being more willing to accept ā€œhopeless diagnosesā€ and ā€œforgo experimental treatments,ā€ and he chastises Americans for expecting too much from the health-care system.

Elderly Hardest Hit

Daschle says health-care reform ā€œwill not be pain free.ā€ Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them. That means the elderly will bear the brunt.

Medicare now pays for treatments deemed safe and effective. The stimulus bill would change that and apply a cost- effectiveness standard set by the Federal Council (464).

The Federal Council is modeled after a U.K. board discussed in Daschle’s book. This board approves or rejects treatments using a formula that divides the cost of the treatment by the number of years the patient is likely to benefit. Treatments for younger patients are more often approved than treatments for diseases that affect the elderly, such as osteoporosis.

In 2006, a U.K. health board decreed that elderly patients with macular degeneration had to wait until they went blind in one eye before they could get a costly new drug to save the other eye. It took almost three years of public protests before the board reversed its decision.

Hidden Provisions

If the Obama administration’s economic stimulus bill passes the Senate in its current form, seniors in the U.S. will face similar rationing. Defenders of the system say that individuals benefit in younger years and sacrifice later.

The stimulus bill will affect every part of health care, from medical and nursing education, to how patients are treated and how much hospitals get paid. The bill allocates more funding for this bureaucracy than for the Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force combined (90-92, 174-177, 181).

Hiding health legislation in a stimulus bill is intentional. Daschle supported the Clinton administration’s health-care overhaul in 1994, and attributed its failure to debate and delay. A year ago, Daschle wrote that the next president should act quickly before critics mount an opposition. ā€œIf that means attaching a health-care plan to the federal budget, so be it,ā€ he said. ā€œThe issue is too important to be stalled by Senate protocol.ā€

More Scrutiny Needed

On Friday, President Obama called it ā€œinexcusable and irresponsibleā€ for senators to delay passing the stimulus bill. In truth, this bill needs more scrutiny.

The health-care industry is the largest employer in the U.S. It produces almost 17 percent of the nation’s gross domestic product. Yet the bill treats health care the way European governments do: as a cost problem instead of a growth industry. Imagine limiting growth and innovation in the electronics or auto industry during this downturn. This stimulus is dangerous to your health and the economy.

(Betsy McCaughey is former lieutenant governor of New York and is an adjunct senior fellow at the Hudson Institute. The opinions expressed are her own.)

Last Updated: February 9, 2009 00:01 EST
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Re: 2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

Postby Fruitcake on Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:20 pm

Obama was chattering on about clamping down on offshore tax havens in the run up to your US elections.

I now hear from someone I know inside CNN (no names, no pack drill) who was enjoying lunch in Bermuda recently with another friend of mine, and suggested (ahem) that the whole idea was pretty much on the back burner as far as the President is concerned. Perish the thought that Obama had maybe, just maybe, spouted some sound bites the electorate wanted to hear at that particular moment of his campaigning.
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Re: 2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

Postby jay_a2j on Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:28 pm

One thing is clear, there is little difference between Obama and Bush. I was against Bush's bailouts and I'm against Obama's bailouts. As Ron Paul stated. We should have let the banks fail, which would be hard at first but by bailing them out we will be in a lot worse position than if we let them fail. So, how does it feel having your great grandchildren in debt?
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Re: 2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

Postby Zeppflyer on Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:59 pm

We could let everything fail and have a short, sharp, and yes, painful recession that purges a lot of the junk from our economy or we can prop things up in the near term, only to have a constant bleeding away of our national resources in the future as we continue to prop up failing businesses. We will see a growing debt and tax burden and an increasingly overbearing government which must step into one sector of the economy after another to support the Ponzi scheme that it is building.
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Re: 2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

Postby Nobunaga on Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:01 pm

... It just passed in the Senate.

... Sorry, Grandma, you gotta' die now.

...
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Re: 2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

Postby Napoleon Ier on Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:31 pm

InkL0sed wrote:No, seriously. That's the point.


Err... no, it really isn't. To quote the WSJ on this, "Mr. Obama is now endorsing a sort of reductionist Keynesianism that argues that any government spending is an economic stimulus. This is so manifestly false that we doubt Mr. Obama really believes it. He has to know that it matters what the government spends the money on, as well as how it is financed."


Think about it.

If you tax someone, issue bonds or print money, what are you doing to real GDP? f*ck all. You're conjuring money out of thin air, or taking from the economy's left pocket to give it to the right.

For genuine stimulating to occur, you need to increase the velocity of the aggregate stock of money. So, if you just give the new money to people who then hide it under a mattress, you've essentially ended up causing negative growth.

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Re: 2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:18 pm

I heard two startling things on NPR last night. First, some D-from Virginia said that in all of January he only recieved 3 calls about the "stimulus package." Now he's avaraging 800 a day, and all of them are negative. There are so many calls that no one can get to him....
In fact, the capital's phone lines are jammed as well.
Second, fox news said that even the experts who want to pass this stimulus say that there is a 30% chance that it will do nothing at all. Awesome, that's coming from their experts.



Anyway, I saw that the senate passed their stimulus today. Is it the House's or the Senate's version that relied more on tax cuts? I think it was the House's?
Just goes to show you that the people really don't matter in this Republic.
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Re: 2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

Postby Nobunaga on Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:24 pm

... Let's stimulate Cuba while we're at it, eh?

... Stealth bill in the stimulus package to lift travel ban to Cuba.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/ ... 9522.story

... Personally I have no problem with this, but the amount of "stealth bills" sliding through here should scare everybody, and gives reason as to why Obama and the Dems keep saying, "We need to pass this NOW!" (no time for you to read it - don't bother, it's cool)

...
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Re: 2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

Postby Snorri1234 on Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:27 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:Second, fox news said that even the experts who want to pass this stimulus say that there is a 30% chance that it will do nothing at all. Awesome, that's coming from their experts.

So fox news experts say that there is a 30% chance of it not working?


Just goes to show you that the people really don't matter in this Republic.

That's because people are morons.

Or do you actually think the majority of the people in the US have a good enough understanding of economics to form a solid argument against the stimulus?
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Re: 2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

Postby luns101 on Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:49 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:Second, fox news said that even the experts who want to pass this stimulus say that there is a 30% chance that it will do nothing at all. Awesome, that's coming from their experts.


Not to steal your thunder, Juan, but are you referring to Joe Biden saying that or was the Vice President merely quoting some economists and foxnews reported it?
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Re: 2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:50 pm

luns101 wrote:Not to steal your thunder, Juan, but are you referring to Joe Biden saying that or was the Vice President merely quoting some economists and foxnews reported it?

I'm not sure, they had some guest on some news program. He didn't say it was coming from the VP, it was his own words. I didn't even see the interview, NPR just played a clip. It was not Biden.

Snorri1234 wrote:That's because people are morons.

Or do you actually think the majority of the people in the US have a good enough understanding of economics to form a solid argument against the stimulus?

Do you have a good enough understanding of economics to tell me that this stimulus is a good idea? I want pie charts... You don't know anything more than anybody else so don't prettend to be an expert. Or that you know what's best for America.
Point is, it doesn't matter what the stimulus or bailouts could do, the public doesn't want it.
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Re: 2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

Postby Snorri1234 on Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:54 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:Do you have a good enough understanding of economics to tell me that this stimulus is a good idea? I want pie charts... You don't know anything more than anybody else so don't prettend to be an expert. Or that you know what's best for America.
Point is, it doesn't matter what the stimulus or bailouts could do, the public doesn't want it.


Exactly, I'm not an expert so I listen to what experts tell me instead of my gut-instinct. Spending more money to get money back seems contradictory but the end-result is that it works. The public doesn't want lost of things which are actually good for the country.


What the public needs and what the public wants are not always the same.
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Re: 2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

Postby Napoleon Ier on Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:58 pm

Snorri1234 wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Do you have a good enough understanding of economics to tell me that this stimulus is a good idea? I want pie charts... You don't know anything more than anybody else so don't prettend to be an expert. Or that you know what's best for America.
Point is, it doesn't matter what the stimulus or bailouts could do, the public doesn't want it.


Exactly, I'm not an expert so I listen to what experts tell me instead of my gut-instinct. Spending more money to get money back seems contradictory but the end-result is that it works. The public doesn't want lost of things which are actually good for the country.


What the public needs and what the public wants are not always the same.


150 million Japanese beg to differ.
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Re: 2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:08 pm

Snorri1234 wrote:Exactly, I'm not an expert so I listen to what experts tell me instead of my gut-instinct. Spending more money to get money back seems contradictory but the end-result is that it works. The public doesn't want lost of things which are actually good for the country.

These are the same experts who failed to see any of this coming. Or purposly ignored warnings. I used to work for HUD, I know how they covered things up.


Snorri1234 wrote:The public doesn't want lost of things which are actually good for the country.

If you eliminate the free market we will not be the same country. People would rather face depression than give control of private industry and private banking to the government. Or give away our money to the same people who set this up. You've gotta remember, they did this on purpose.

Snorri1234 wrote:What the public needs and what the public wants are not always the same.

In this instance, I disagree. It's not like we don't understand whats happening, or that we don't care. We just don't want what they have to offer. Currently, we are somewhere over 70% of the public being against the stimulus. If our elected officials truly worked for us, they would do what's right.
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Re: 2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

Postby Snorri1234 on Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:37 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:If you eliminate the free market we will not be the same country. People would rather face depression than give control of private industry and private banking to the government. Or give away our money to the same people who set this up. You've gotta remember, they did this on purpose.

Who said anything about eliminating the free market?
Snorri1234 wrote:What the public needs and what the public wants are not always the same.

In this instance, I disagree. It's not like we don't understand whats happening, or that we don't care. We just don't want what they have to offer. Currently, we are somewhere over 70% of the public being against the stimulus. If our elected officials truly worked for us, they would do what's right.


And what is right is not what the public wants. If the government does nothing the economy will collapse, simple as that. The population is against the stimulus and the bailout because it seems like it's rewarding the people who fucked up, it is spending money when when there is already a huge debt and they are not giving the people money they paid.

But all of that is neccesary if you want to preserve the american life as it is now. it would be better capitalism to let the recession run it's course, but people would find out they wouldn't like that very much either.
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