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Prince Of The City

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Prince Of The City

Postby Merciless Wong on Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:15 pm

Please see the latest post, I am discontinuing the map, no one has any continuation rights in protest over abuse of the draft stamp (assuming I have any rights to prevent continuation). I feel that the draft stamp criteria I have cited inside this thread is being used as an effective veto over anything that does not meet the draft stamp holders personal preferences (for territory maps, for geographies only, for complicated rules) especially where a clear conflict exists (in this case because I did think Classic Art had never really caught on).

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Map Title: Prince Of The City

Mapmaker: Merciless Wong, Killerpit4e may end up doing the XML :D

Territory Count: 4+4+2+2+7+7+10+9=45

Bonuses: 7 regions, academia +2 with 4 territories, theocracy +2 with 4 territories,
poor +1 with 2 territories, radicals +1 with 2 territories, middle class +4 with 7 territories,
commerce +4 with 7 territories, the masses +7 with 10 territories, upper class +5 with +9 territories

Theme: The "Prince of the City" map is about city politics. You win issues by deploying supporters, controlling key groups, using links between groups to get more groups on your side, building coalitions of groups with related interests and controlling strategically important groups. Politicians 'fight' over areas by promoting or doing favors to your supporters and buying support with the right policies and appeals. Think Saul Alinsky and his "rules for radicals", think Mayor Daley and Chicago machine politics. Think about the Republican coalition of the religious right (theocracy), business (commerce), the rich (upper class) and parts of the middle class. You could say that politics is like war and battles are key votes, key appointments, nasty battles in the press. Your soldiers are your supporters and territories districts or interest groups you control. The map represents key districts and groups and how they influence one another. It takes some artistic license where those groups are located to correctly show how these groups influence one another.

Machiavelli is a very famous figure in strategy and in politics. He wrote a very famous politics/strategy book called the Prince. He wrote the book as an advisory to 'the Prince', a ruler of an Italian city state. He advised the ruler of a city to be very ruthless and made observations on political strategy. He was arguably one of the first realists in political science. His surname yielded the modern political words “Macchiavelli” (a person of acute and scheming intelligence) and Machiavellianism (the use of cunning and deceit in politics or generally). His quote seems fitting for the map.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machiavelli
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machiavellianism

The term 'Prince of the City' has multiple meanings. It could be the actual ruler of a third world, fantasy or historical city. It can be a reference to Machiavelli's book. Plus in American political slang, it can be a successful mayor. Mayor Gulliani's biography is titled "Prince of the City". This all fits very well with the names.

Gameplay: Standard

Unique features:
1. There aren't many attack line maps other than the trains. Haven't seen a block style map as background.
2. Most vanilla maps are just geographic maps, no one has done a vanilla fantasy/historical city theme map.Theme is Machiavellian political control, setting could be a third world coup, city politics, criminal gangs or even factions in a historical or fantasy city.
3. Lots of continent pairs that make great combinations, lots of forward defense positions that give an incentive for continents,also many good niches to use as a power base during the early game. Different from Classic but has many of the features I think make Classic so great.
4. Names for continents and territories carefully chosen as social commentary (poor continent combining well with radicals, theocracy having links to academia, academia linking to upper class through civil service. The key positions in the game are often those that are critical to political control of a city e.g. barracks, hospital, tower, city council, gates, ferries, foreign powers, courts, speaker's corner, sheriffs & baliffs

Criteria for non-draft status:
1. Took lots of feedback, making it clearer, changing gameplay to make it less like classic, resolving conflicting elements,
considered a special rule then went vanilla after feedback. I clearly have some support.
2. Different from other vanilla maps, I think it may be the only vanilla city map
3. Note there is a forum faction that insists on special rules but there is clearly a faction that will use a vanilla map that is not another geographic location. I argue that you can have a theme in the art, names and type of play the layout will favor without adding special rules.

Size: Large 800px × 640px; Small 600px × 480px

Small Image 600x480
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Large Image 800 x 640
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Alternative Small
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Alternative Large
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Old Versions
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Last edited by Merciless Wong on Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:19 am, edited 79 times in total.
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Re: Prince Of The City [V1]

Postby sailorseal on Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:26 pm

This looks a awful lot like Classic Art...

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Re: Prince Of The City [V1]

Postby Merciless Wong on Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:12 pm

Yup, I started from there.
The renaming and additional two continents changes play and feel.
I didn't think rectangles and circles couldn't be used as a generic design because of classic.
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Re: Prince Of The City [V1]

Postby MrBenn on Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:25 am

You'd be better off starting with your own graphics and idea from scratch, rather than bastardising the combined effort of several mapmakers...
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Re: Prince Of The City [V2]

Postby Merciless Wong on Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:45 pm

Update 1 - 6th February - Replaced maps with original design
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Re: Prince Of The City [V2]

Postby MrBenn on Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:23 pm

Seriously, you'd be better off coming up with something a) original, and b) decent.
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Re: Prince Of The City [V2]

Postby Merciless Wong on Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:41 pm

That's not a productive comment. How is the new map not an original piece of art?

I'm only going by Oaktown's suggestion. Map altered....from Classic

Re: Classic Prince of the City

Postby oaktown » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:34 pm
I can't go into the details as to why (because I'm not privy to everything that went on a few months ago), but the site is not currently accepting alternate versions of the Classic map. I'd hate to see you spend many hours over many weeks working on this only to be told that it will never see the light of day.

I'd suggest you either shelve the idea until CC policy changes, or alter this map to not reflect the classic gameplay. If the map is good enough to proceed with classic play, it is good enough to be a new map in its own right.
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Re: Prince Of The City [V2]

Postby Merciless Wong on Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:28 pm

New map up 8 Feb 09 - Old maps moved down here


Small Map (<600 x <300 pixels JPG)- Now replaced

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Small Map (600 x 300 pixels JPG)- Now Replaced

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Large Map (<800 x <400 pixels JPG )- Now Replaced

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Old small map now replaced
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Small Map (<600 x <600 pixels png) (Replaced)

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Last edited by Merciless Wong on Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:19 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Prince Of The City [V3]

Postby ustus on Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:22 pm

maybe if you put some kind of city map as the background, or tried to give it a city/village theme in its graphics?

i like the gameplay as is, but it needs a lot as far as graphics. Sure there're a lot of ppl who like fewer choke points, but i prefer to play on maps i can gain a continent or two in without having to have lots and lots of troops before i take it.

so, try to work on the graphics and see if you can make it look more interesting.

i know you're making a point with those graphics, but you'll need SOMETHING in the way of graphics to draw attention. Graphics aren't everything, but they are something, just like the name is.
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Re: Prince Of The City [V3]

Postby Emperor_Metalman on Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:02 pm

Your currrent map is way to similar to the classic map. 5 of the bonuses are in exactly the same position and have exactly the same value. And they look like they have the same territory configuration as the classic map.

The idea is good, just make the territory and bonus structure more unique
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Re: Prince Of The City [V3.5]

Postby Merciless Wong on Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:32 pm

That's the thing, I did actually like the gameplay of the classic map. So some traits I would hope should stay.
Niches and big bonuses that threaten one another... I've changed the bonuses slightly again and left up a crude image of what the end product might look like. A gray white city background with an abstract network map infront of it. Would that work enough for me to do it properly in Incscape?


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Last edited by Merciless Wong on Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Prince Of The City [V3]

Postby the.killing.44 on Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:34 pm

Merciless Wong wrote:That's the thing, I did actually like the gameplay of the classic map

Then play classic …

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Re: Prince Of The City [V3] + 1 suggestion

Postby MrBenn on Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:55 pm

I get that you're trying to produce a slightly amended/enlarged version of the classic map, but I'm really not convinced this is the right way to go about it... The map has a vague 'City' theme, but doesn't look or feel anything like a city map would - it looks incredibly look a poor knock-off of a shapeless map.

As it currently stands, there is nothing to give me an indication of what you are hoping to achieve, nor can I see the glimmer of a butterfly inside its cocoon...
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Re: Prince Of The City [V3] + 1 suggestion

Postby Merciless Wong on Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:00 pm

Its less a 'city' map and more a 'city politics' map....The links don't have to match up to actual streets or anything...
The 'continents' represent social factions and the chokepoints represent the likely points social factions might use in control of a city.

Embassy-Docks linking the ruling class with the docks
Gentry-City Council linking upper class to merchants
The Barracks and Old Gate being the key to control the combined Merchant's and Middle Class area
Speaker's Corner linking the middle class to the university
The Church and Church End linking the masses to the theocracy
The Commons (A park and also an economic concept), The East Side, The Docks and Scholar's Walk liking radicals, academia and the masses...

My question is this. How many simple maps with good chokepoints and no fancy rules other than Classic do you have? Since there aren't many this map does fulfil a niche. Several commentators have suggested the gameplay would be fun.

Look, I'm not likely to bother with this map if Mr. Benn as cartographer is dead set against anything that might be an alternative to his 'classic' efforts. I'd just like to see him openly admit he's suffering from 'not invented by me' syndrome.

This forum seems designed to come up with many pretty maps that don't get repeat gameplay because they have too messy rules or have no thought to balanced continent bonuses, chokepoints and likely flashpoints between powerbases.
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Re: Prince Of The City [V3] + 1 suggestion

Postby MrBenn on Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:13 pm

Merciless Wong wrote:Look, I'm not likely to bother with this map if Mr. Benn as cartographer is dead set against anything that might be an alternative to his 'classic' efforts. I'd just like to see him openly admit he's suffering from 'not invented by me' syndrome.

Firstly, let's keep the flaming and baiting out of the forum.

Secondly, I have no idea what you mean about my "classic efforts", and I'm not dead-set against anything, unless it is of poor quality...

I stand by my earlier comment: "I get that you're trying to produce a slightly amended/enlarged version of the classic map, but I'm really not convinced this is the right way to go about it..." The best way of exploring the idea of a slightly amended/enlarged version of classic would be to have some discussion about it, rather than producing a knock-off the existing Classic Shapes map.
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Re: Prince Of The City [V3] + 1 suggestion

Postby Merciless Wong on Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:31 pm

Yup, but if you are dead set against the idea and will just keep repeating the same objection, I'm wasting my time improving the graphics or altering the gameplay. Your objections have been really generic and non-concrete. Nothing I can use as point of improvement.

"you'd be better off coming up with something a) original, and b) decent."


"unless it is of poor quality"


"The map has a vague 'City' theme, but doesn't look or feel anything like a city map would - it looks incredibly look a poor knock-off of a shapeless map."


"there is nothing to give me an indication of what you are hoping to achieve, nor can I see the glimmer of a butterfly inside its cocoon..."


I am simply following the instructions when I proposed something like classic on a city politics theme in the new ideas forum. Alter the map to not reflect the classic gameplay so much.... that's what I did. I admit I'm not there yet on the graphics but I can't be expected to invest in fixing it if the cartographer is just dead set against the idea and won't admit it.

Postby oaktown » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:34 pm
I can't go into the details as to why (because I'm not privy to everything that went on a few months ago), but the site is not currently accepting alternate versions of the Classic map. I'd hate to see you spend many hours over many weeks working on this only to be told that it will never see the light of day.

I'd suggest you either shelve the idea until CC policy changes, or alter this map to not reflect the classic gameplay. If the map is good enough to proceed with classic play, it is good enough to be a new map in its own right.
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Re: Prince Of The City [V3] + 1 suggestion

Postby oaktown on Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:30 am

Merciless Wong wrote:Yup, but if you are dead set against the idea and will just keep repeating the same objection, I'm wasting my time improving the graphics or altering the gameplay. Your objections have been really generic and non-concrete. Nothing I can use as point of improvement.

I don't think that Benn is "dead set" against the concept of this map, but I do see that there are some basic graphics concerns. Even the text is pixely, suggesting that you are working on this in an app that won't let you do what you'll need to for this to be a CC map. I think you wrote somewhere that you are working in Inkscape, which should be vector-based and scalable, right? So I'm not sure why everything comes out looking like it was made for my old Atari 2600. ;)

Keep in mind as you work that we expect maps to offer something unique in terms of graphics, gameplay, or theme; in my experience at least two of those elements need to be entirely original for your map to capture the attention and affection of the community. Creating a map that is so similar to classic in gameplay is fine, but it means you have your work cut out for you in coming up with a unique theme and unique graphics.
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Re: Prince Of The City [V3] + 1 suggestion

Postby ustus on Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:14 am

i think he has a unique theme, i'd like to suggest that all he needs is to work out the graphics (maybe some gameplay work and etc. later on, but for drafting purposes...
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Re: Prince Of The City [V3] + 1 suggestion

Postby Merciless Wong on Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:33 pm

I am still working in paint and moving towards inkscape. Just need to know what the deal-killers are before
investing more time.

Would the board be OK in me submitting in paint a few more times, getting the gameplay signed off
as 'different enough' from classic before I go to Inkscape or does it have to be Inkscape all the way from here?
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Re: Prince Of The City [V3] + 1 suggestion

Postby rishaed on Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:48 am

Merciless Wong wrote:I am still working in paint and moving towards inkscape. Just need to know what the deal-killers are before
investing more time.

Would the board be OK in me submitting in paint a few more times, getting the gameplay signed off
as 'different enough' from classic before I go to Inkscape or does it have to be Inkscape all the way from here?

It would be better for the map to start or be in Inkscape for the graphics would be much better and people could actually comment on something other than how crappy the graphics are. :?
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Re: Prince Of The City [V3] + 1 suggestion

Postby oaktown on Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:50 pm

rishaed wrote:
Merciless Wong wrote:Would the board be OK in me submitting in paint a few more times, getting the gameplay signed off
as 'different enough' from classic before I go to Inkscape or does it have to be Inkscape all the way from here?

It would be better for the map to start or be in Inkscape for the graphics would be much better and people could actually comment on something other than how crappy the graphics are. :?

At this is still in the Drafts stage, MrBenn has to determine whether or not this map and the mapmaker has the tools to take this map through the process. Being able to work in a format that both meets the graphics standards of the Foundry and allows for easy changes is a critical piece. So while you are free to continue working in Paint, if I were in MrBenn's position I would not advance this map until I'd seen some signficant progress made in a app other than Paint.
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Re: Prince Of The City [V4]

Postby Merciless Wong on Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:06 am

OK - draft in inkscape...

God knows how I'm going to get all the names in there
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Re: Prince Of The City [V5]

Postby Merciless Wong on Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:44 pm

Version 5 now up... if this is fine I'd love sum xml advice. Also posted an alternative with a slight change to balance

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And this is it with no background for discussion

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Re: Prince Of The City [V5]

Postby sailorseal on Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:16 pm

Very nice, now briefly:
1. Many words are distorted, change it
2. The legend color for Academia does not match the map
3. Get a font and size and stick with it
4. Make a few more radicals
5. Make a GP feature
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Re: Prince Of The City [V5]

Postby ustus on Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:21 am

GP feature? what do you mean by this? ( i beg you, don't suggest bombardment, please.... :cry: )

i think if you mean "gameplay" feature, that I personally would like to see more CLASSIC STYLE GAMEPLAY coming out of the forge. take terits, take bonus areas, get troops, kill each other. unless you have an idea BASED on a special gameplay feature, there is NO REASON to add bombardment just to add bombardments!!!

this discussion occurs in every thread for some reason :roll:
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