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Philosophy Final- God Exists

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Postby theosi on Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:40 am

Ok so I see the creationist viewpoint has been touched on and requested to cease but I would like to enter an interesting perspective to the fray.

But first I would like to give some insight into my perspective on the topic of God.

Belief in God requires Faith. Without faith there cannot be a God (in our minds at least). Some seek God out of desperation for identity. Some seek him out for the hope of something better than what they have. Some just need to believe in something! And then some of us look at the world around us and cannot honestly believe that something so miraculous just poofed into existance through some random, chaotic order of chance and coincidence. And then you have those who need ABSOLUTE proof to believe... Sorry, I don't think God feels the need to walk up and tap you on the shoulder and tell you he's God. And even if he did would you believe it? Trully? No. Just some whack job with a God complex right? So how then can one Absolutely proof the existence of God? Can it be done? I don't believe it can and I definatly don't believe I can convince anyone who chooses not to believe that God does exist. Reality is nothing more than our perception. And if God is outside your realm of perception no one is going to MAKE you see it from a different one. One must choose to percieve God and when they do the Majesty of God becomes abundantly clear!

But before I get to that data I think is enjoyable let me touch on the subject of Agnostic:

The English term "agnostic" is derived from the Greek "agnostos," which means, "to not know." An agnostic is one who admits, "I don't know."
(a=without/ gnostic=knowledge) They are people without knowledge.
They are just running all around not knowing a damn thing about anything and for that I feel I should not listen to a single thing they don't know about. :wink:
But lets not confuse an Agnostic person for an Gnostic person. They are exactly the opposite of each other. Gnostics, as mentioned above, is Knowledge. Therefore the Gnostics seem, at least to me, to be the foundation of most religions today. In my opinion, the Gnostics are the purest form of learning the mysteries of our faith. They teach us the fundamentals of sacred knowledge. I don't know why the Christian faith created such a dogma around Gnostics. It confuses me a great deal actually. But I am getting way off topic here. My entire point of mentioning Agnostics is that if a person has trully sought out knowledge of God and still comes up with "I don't know" then are they trully Agnostic? They do have knowledge, they are not ignorant to the world around them and the fundamentals of faith and religion. So why proclaim themselves to not know? I feel this Agnostic title has taken on this COOL feel to it and people are ignorantly stating themselves as such when in all actuality they have no idea what they believe so they use Agnostic as the scapegoat for there own ignorance! It's not so bad that they don't know because they have this cool title to lable it and at least they are something. I don't feel a person that trully is Agnostic would ever admit to such a title because they are learned and educated and know that they know, they just have no idea and would not willingly proclaim themselves to be ignorant!

Soooo anyway, I know the Creationist thing is played out here already but I would enjoy hearing someone debate on the example being set forth here:

Design necessitates a designer. This is a fundamental axiom. Thus, design detection methodology is a prerequisite for many fields of human endeavor.
In general, we find "specified complexity" to be a reliable indicator of the presence of intelligent design. Chance can explain complexity but not specification; a random sequence of letters is complex but not specified (it is meaningless). A Shakespearean sonnet is both complex and specified (it is meaningful). You can't have a Shakespearean sonnet without Shakespeare. (William A. Dembski, "The Design Inference: Eliminating Chance through Small Probabilities," 1998.)

When we apply the general principles of detecting specified complexity to living creatures, we find it reasonable to infer the presence of intelligent design. Common sense demands a Designer. Let's take the e-coli bacterial flagellum for example. The e-coli bacterial flagellum is what propels e-coli bacteria through their microscopic world. It consists of about 40 different protein parts (which come into focus when magnified 50,000 times using electron micrographs), including a stator, rotor, drive shaft, U-joint, and propeller. It is not simply convenient that we've given these parts these specific names - that's truly their function. The bacterial flagellum is a microscopic outboard motor! These microscopic outboard motors are absolutely amazing - a marvel of engineering. They can run at an incredible 100,000 rpm. Nevertheless, they can stop on a microscopic dime. In fact, it takes only a quarter turn for them to stop, shift gears and start spinning 100,000 rpm in the other direction! The flagellar motor is water-cooled and is hardwired into a signal transduction (sensory mechanism) so that it gets feedback from its environment! ("Unlocking the Mystery of Life," documentary by Illustra Media, 2002.)

The point is, if you were to find a stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, or propeller in any vehicle, any machine, any toy or model, you would recognize it as the product of an intelligent source. No one would expect any outboard motor, much less one this incredible, would ever be the product of a chance assemblage of parts. That is absurd. Outboard motors are the product of intelligent design. (Michael Behe, "Darwin's Black Box," 1996.)

The term "Irreducible Complexity" was first coined by Michael Behe in describing these molecular machines. Each mechanical part is absolutely necessary for the whole to function. Thus there is no naturalistic, gradual, evolutionary explanation for the existence of a bacterial flagellum. Not only does common sense demand a Designer, there is no plausible naturalistic explanation to explain away the necessity of a Designer.

The bacterial flagellum is only one among many thousands of intricate well-designed molecular machines. Molecular biologist Michael Denton wrote, "Although the tiniest bacterial cells are incredibly small, weighing less than 10-12 grams, each is in effect a veritable micro-miniaturized factory containing thousands of exquisitely designed pieces of intricate molecular machinery, made up altogether of one hundred thousand atoms, far more complicated than any machinery built by man and absolutely without parallel in the non-living world." (Michael Denton, "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis," 1986, p. 250.)

So how do you argue this example of an Intelligent design? I don't really enjoy the title of Intelligent design but that is the PC way these days, but in my opinion that Intelligent design is GOD!
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Postby MeDeFe on Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:58 am

About agnostics, you know just as little as them (us), but you don't realize it, instead you claim to know something of which you can't have any clue at all (i.e. god).
Please do us all a favour and don't try to be funny anymore, you don't seem to have what it takes.


Oh yeah, that amazing bacterium, so far they've been able to reduce that motor down to 12 pieces (I think) that would ALSO work as a motor. In other words: they cut out over 2/3rds and it's still functional. Maybe those 12 can also be cut down even further, give evolution a chance, and don't bring up the famous examples that any 12 year old would know how to counter.


Anyway, do you know how much 10-12 grams is? That's one hell of a large bacterium he's found if it weighs that much.
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Postby vtmarik on Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:06 am

I found a paper which is a very good answer to Behe's claims of Irreducible Complexity.


I'd post my own paper, but in reality it isn't my best writing and I don't want to toot my own horn.

EDIT: Hmmm, you know what?
Maybe I should put in a link.
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Postby reverend_kyle on Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:49 am

vtmarik wrote:
2dimes wrote:I never said I was literate. Wait I maybe did say that, but I won't claim spelling capabilities.

So anyways what book are you talking about? If it's something reverend Kyle wrote I'd like a copy.

I just noticed english has become my second language.
I wrote:the guy that go around saying...


You know, The Good Book. The Bible.

Duh.


Oddly enough I did write that book, I enjoy writing novels in my spare time.
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Postby theosi on Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:51 am

MeDeFe wrote:About agnostics, you know just as little as them (us), but you don't realize it, instead you claim to know something of which you can't have any clue at all (i.e. god).
Please do us all a favour and don't try to be funny anymore, you don't seem to have what it takes.
I agree not so funny. I was trying to lighten up my words with a little humor that you have been offended by and for that I apologize. But I feel so many people find it "cool" to claim they are Agnostic when they trully have no clue what it means. One must have actually studied faith and religion to be able to trully state that you do not accept what there is to offer. I don't have a problem with someone showing me how they have come to the conclusion that they are Agnostic. But for alllllllllll these people that throw the word around and have no clue about it I feel they trully are just 'frontin'. It's like a rich white kid from Beverly Hills trying to act gangsta when he has no clue what being a gangsta means!


MeDeFe wrote:Oh yeah, that amazing bacterium, so far they've been able to reduce that motor down to 12 pieces (I think) that would ALSO work as a motor. In other words: they cut out over 2/3rds and it's still functional. Maybe those 12 can also be cut down even further, give evolution a chance, and don't bring up the famous examples that any 12 year old would know how to counter.
Well oh brilliant one I do wish you would have countered it. Does this mean you are only 11? So if you tear this cell apart it can still function? Hmmm... I think I'm going to go out to my vehicle and just remove a few components and see how well it runs. BRB... Ok my car won't run now. Do you know a good mechanic? So how is it that this cell can still function? I would have to say we should give Intelligent design a chance! And by the way being able to adapt to environment (aka evolution) is essential to survival... Where did I say I did not believe that evolution occurs. My question is how did it come about to begin with to evolve? The Big Bang Theory itself does not state for fact how it occured just that "maybe" it did. So not even science can factually explain how we got here.


MeDeFe wrote:Anyway, do you know how much 10-12 grams is? That's one hell of a large bacterium he's found if it weighs that much.
I do believe that is a typo... And i don't know how much a cell weighs... Please inform.
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Postby heavycola on Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:45 am

Theosi:

a) 'faith' means believeing in something for which there is no proof. You have 'faith', not 'knowledge', in god. Therefore you are agnostic too, in a sense. Being agnostic is not like white kids pretending to be gangsters.

b) You don't understand natural selection. It's a beautiful headfuck, definitely, but it explains the existence of every living thing on this planet. You have written nothing but regurgitated sophistry, which is all any creationist can ever do.

Design necessitates a designer. This is a fundamental axiom. Thus, design detection methodology is a prerequisite for many fields of human endeavor.


Sophistry! Why assume we, or any other living thing, were 'designed' at all? And please explain what that third sentence means.

In general, we find "specified complexity" to be a reliable indicator of the presence of intelligent design. Chance can explain complexity but not specification


Who is 'we'? Carl Baugh and friends? If they find "specified complexity" to be a reliable indicator of ID, then they don't understand natural selection either. And doubtless they don't want to, because that might conflict with their religious beliefs, which makes them blind and dogmatic as well as wrong.


c) Why believe in science, in its conclusions and its laws, EXCEPT for where an old book of myths, written when people had no scientific explanation, says otherwise?
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Postby Mirak on Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:43 am

2dimes wrote:I don't think you understood the concept Mirak. (Fixed spelling for VTMarik :D )

Usually the guy that go around saying they are God are quite insane and so don't make good teacher/philosophers.

David Koresh and Jim Jones for example.


I fully understood the "concept"

Yes people with a God complex are mentally unstable by definition and hence not the best mentor material.

Most of what we know of Jesus is from people and institutions (The Church) with the sole agenda of promoting Jesus as the son of God and or God ( I can never get my brain around that "logic") in order to validate the religion as it took on a more formal and hence political and economic form

Despite all the myths, propaganda, misinformation, and speculation surrounding Jesus, I look at the underlying message, and consider him to have been a visionary.

However you could say that I look at him as the personification of the values and message that Christianity symbolises, the same as perhaps the founding fathers are revered for what America symbolises....
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Postby MeDeFe on Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:00 am

1 gram (or gramme, both spellings are correct) is 1/1000th part of one kilogram. 1 liter of water weighs about 1 kilogram.


And a cell is not a car. Understand that and you'll have understood a lot already.
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Postby Backglass on Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:47 am

Anarkistsdream wrote:The Bible is a fictional account.


Thank You. Fables & Myths.

theosi wrote:but in my opinion that Intelligent design is GOD!


I dont understand why you must assume that a "design" is present. Why is it so far fetched in your mind that the world is what it is and there wasnt any grand architect? I guess it's just easier to say "a god built it all". Just because we dont understand it yet doesnt mean it was all created by a supernatural being.

So many things in the not so distant past were explained away as "gods will" until we understood them. If someone died from an injury it was "gods will". Now we know about bacteria and how to prevent most infection, etc.
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Postby heavycola on Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:00 am

Right - if a virus (designed by god) attacks a human (designed by god) and we kill it with drugs (desiged by us) aren't we screwing with god's plan? And if we aren't, then what happened to everyone who died of smallpox before vaccines were invented? Were they not part of god's plan? Why did god wait until bubonic plague, malaria, smallpox etc etc had killed so many millions of his beloved children before letting us discover modern medicine? How does that work out?

Yours not in expectation of any sensible answer,

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Postby Anarkistsdream on Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:10 am

heavycola wrote:Right - if a virus (designed by god) attacks a human (designed by god) and we kill it with drugs (desiged by us) aren't we screwing with god's plan? And if we aren't, then what happened to everyone who died of smallpox before vaccines were invented? Were they not part of god's plan? Why did god wait until bubonic plague, malaria, smallpox etc etc had killed so many millions of his beloved children before letting us discover modern medicine? How does that work out?

Yours not in expectation of any sensible answer,

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Damn fine point, indeed! makes me wish I'd thought of it.
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Postby Mirak on Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:13 am

theosi wrote: Thus there is no naturalistic, gradual, evolutionary explanation for the existence of a bacterial flagellum. Not only does common sense demand a Designer, there is no plausible naturalistic explanation to explain away the necessity of a Designer


So can you give us a theological reason for the existence of bacterial flagellum?

O..it was another one of God's little experiments...

And how do you explain all the design faults....what does that say about the infallibility of the great designer in the sky?
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Postby heavycola on Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:34 am

there is no plausible naturalistic explanation to explain away the necessity of a Designer


NATURAL SELECTION. TRY READING A BOOK THAT CONTAINS FACTS.
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Postby 2dimes on Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:37 am

vtmarik wrote:
2dimes wrote:Ah, ok. I thought you meant some quote where Jesus actually said it.



He did.

"I and the Father are One" (John 10:30)

ACK!!


Hmmm I supose there is that.

This one is interesting too.
John 20:27-29 (New American Standard Bible)
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation wrote:
27Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."

28Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

29Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed?

He kind of wasn't credited with saying "No no no Tommy don't say that, people will read this an get the wrong idea."


Umm yeah, so the thing Nate is talking about is a theory that.

Jesus has to be either a great teacher and who he claims to be or "finger to mouth b b b-b b b" nuts but can't be both.
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Postby Anarkistsdream on Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:39 am

27Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."


"Now reach into my ass," he said to Thomas, "and remove thy gerbils from my rectum"
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Postby 2dimes on Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:47 am

Anarkistsdream wrote:So, you just blindly believe the translation done by the Pope and the Roman Catholic church all that time ago?
I sure don't. Infact I don't think I've even seen one, do they still exist? I would think they're all protected and you wouldn't be allowed to touch them let alone read one. I can barely speak proper modern english and have difficulty making a sentance in French. My latin is pretty much restricted to "E Plurbis Unim" about now.
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Postby Anarkistsdream on Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:00 am

2dimes wrote:
Anarkistsdream wrote:So, you just blindly believe the translation done by the Pope and the Roman Catholic church all that time ago?
I sure don't. Infact I don't think I've even seen one, do they still exist? I would think they're all protected and you wouldn't be allowed to touch them let alone read one. I can barely speak proper modern english and have difficulty making a sentance in French. My latin is pretty much restricted to "E Plurbis Unim" about now.


Dude, ALL of the Christian bibles in the world were translated by the Roman Catholic Church in the 1200s and before...
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Postby Anarkistsdream on Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:08 am

The Old Testament canon entered into Christian use in the Greek Septuagint translations and original books, and their differing lists of texts. In addition to the Septuagint, Christianity subsequently added various writings that would become the New Testament. Somewhat different lists of accepted works continued to develop in antiquity. In the fourth century a series of synods produced a list of texts equal to the 27-book canon of the New Testament that would be subsequently used to today.


All of the Bible has been translated dozens if not hundreds of times. The original meanings of many words were lost or unknown at the time of the translations, so things were MADE UP and put into it to match what the Holy Roman Empire wanted its new followers to believe. They admit to this.

The Bible was written by man... The scrolsl that the Bible came from may have been inspired by God or some God-like being, but we will never know.

God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we, murderers of all murderers, console ourselves? That which was the holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet possessed has bled to death under our knives. Who will wipe this blood off us? With what water could we purify ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we need to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we not ourselves become gods simply to be worthy of it?

-Nietzsche
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Postby Backglass on Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:15 pm

Anarkistsdream wrote:"Now reach into my ass," he said to Thomas, "and remove thy gerbils from my rectum"


:lol:
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Postby MR. Nate on Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:41 pm

Anarkistsdream:

Let me tell you what I have told everyone else. We have more textual evidence for the NT being what was originally written than we do for any other book. Want proof? Learn Koine greek, go to Duke, read the 1st century manuscripts. Compare your translation to, say, the NASB. They're the same.

As for the "other" gospels, all were written between the 3rd & 4th century. Thus, not included in the cannon.
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Postby 2dimes on Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:43 pm

Nate have you read any of the other gospels?
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Postby Anarkistsdream on Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:59 pm

MR. Nate wrote:Anarkistsdream:

Let me tell you what I have told everyone else. We have more textual evidence for the NT being what was originally written than we do for any other book. Want proof? Learn Koine greek, go to Duke, read the 1st century manuscripts. Compare your translation to, say, the NASB. They're the same.

As for the "other" gospels, all were written between the 3rd & 4th century. Thus, not included in the cannon.


And those texts were written by MEN!!! You did not dispute what I was saying at all... Obviously they were written... The point is were they DIVINELY INSPIRED.... And the answer is STILL fucking no.
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Postby heavycola on Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:00 pm

MR. Nate wrote:Anarkistsdream:

Let me tell you what I have told everyone else. We have more textual evidence for the NT being what was originally written than we do for any other book. Want proof? Learn Koine greek, go to Duke, read the 1st century manuscripts. Compare your translation to, say, the NASB. They're the same.

As for the "other" gospels, all were written between the 3rd & 4th century. Thus, not included in the cannon.


The english words 'fragrant cane' in Exodus were translated from the word 'kaneh-bos'. it was a major ingredient in anointing oil. All the NT visionaries were massive stoners.
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Postby 2dimes on Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:13 pm

That's pretty funny Heavy.

I don't know if the possibility that your educating people makes it better or if that's just mean.

Dude, I read on a non hasbro strategy based game forum that the guys that hung out with Jesus were baked!

Seriously, it's from the original chinese in the book of Excellent or something.
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Postby MeDeFe on Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:28 pm

On a side note, It's spelled "canon" not "cannon", a cannon is something completely different.
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