Montreal map

[craig84]

ok whoever made this map needs to fix it bad, its hard to tell what the country bonuses are, and y does every1 want to make the countrys different shades of the color keep it the same color it makes things simple and it doesnt make it so difficult to no which country has which bonuses,

and whats with downtown y do u get a bonus for keeping it? its one country that can be attacked from 4 sides so what?

[Hoff]

I'm in the middle of 2 games right now and the game play seems to be decent but the visual appeal is horendous. If the maker got a better art program it could easily be improved.

[Augusta]

I really like how the map plays but not how it looks - with colors and graphics like Europe or Africa this could be a great map, right now its just ok.

The ledger is hard to read - choice of letters no good and backgorund just plain awful
Colors on map looks a bit pale

Choice of different graphic elements is also questionable - like factories, airport, bridges etc. They dont look finished, just something that is meant to be replaced later with something much more stylish.

But all in all I like this map.

[Willgfass]

i think the downtown bonus is dumb

[craig84]

i would agree that this map would be good with different colors and different style to it, but to me it just sucks now even tho i just won my 1st time playing it..

and one more thing i see a HUGE flaw in it why does the "west end" or w/e get a 5 army bonus it can be attacked from 3 countrys but the other 5 bonus one which is orange has 3 sides yes.. but it can be attacked by 5+ countrys, this doesnt make any since to me, if u dnt get what im talkin about then go look at the map and compare the purple "west end" and the one orange one with all the countrys purple has id say it could be at most a 4.

[john123]

i like how it plays (possibly cos i won on it) but yeah the graphics could do with a major overhaul. I really like the little bonuses like downtown and that other little continent, gives it that little more originality

[rocksolid]

Hey all,

Didn't notice this topic but someone pointed it out to me.

First off, I'm more than happy to take the graphic back into the shop. I left it hanging in the forum for days until it slipped to the second page of topics because no one seemed to have anything to say at the time...timely comments then may have saved all this ire. But now that there's some more input, I'll go to work. Thanks for your comments.

As for gameplay, I'm less inclined to switch things up. The "orange continent", Transalpinia, was originally worth 6 armies according to me, but the uncontradicted opinion (i.e. Marv) was that this was too much for a 6-territory continent. In either case, like I said in that thread, I don't see a huge problem with a specific continent being undervalued, only with one continent being so overvalued that the game has to centre around that continent exclusively. An undervalue just makes for an unusual feature of gameplay.

There was also some handwringing over the downtown bonus, and some people didn't like the 1-bonus continent of Ile Bizard. As here, others did. I personally found them amusing in the game I just played, so I'm pretty sure they're going to stay.

So, now that there's finally some input re graphics, let me see if I have a handle on some of the main notions:

1. Uniform colours for continents - I like the old board-style colour variation within continents, but from a lot of the game chats, people don't seem to like them, and the computer screen is a different medium, so...this is pretty easily done.

2. Legend difficult to read, bonuses unclear as to amount and as to which continent is which bonus - I'll change this.

3. Bridges - I specifically asked for help on this in the thread, but couldn't get any feedback. The bridges as they are actually look like a specific bridge in the west end of Montreal. I've seen some nice bridges on this site, but none that really look like city bridges, and I want the map to have a city feel. Suggestions?

4. Pale colours - I hate these colours. The original colours were very saturated and people complained. I'd be more than happy to give them a rerun.

5. Airport graphic, etc - I'll get on it.

6. Readability of the map - This isn't in this thread, but it's popped up in game chatter a bit. Of course it's clear to me, but if others could point out what is specifically difficult to understand about the representation, that would help me fix this. I think changing the water could help, so I'll start with this.

If you've got more to add to this, please do so NOW. I don't want a second edition of the graphic to be up for a month before more people start whining about it being crap when they could say something now.

[howie]

Good gameplay poor graphics like as been said. However despite poor grahics I will happily play it again and again

[Jota]

I'd like to see a version with the revisions you're working on before making any comments, since it's hard to judge what it will/would be like with all the other changes.

[PaperPlunger]

if anyone would like me too, i'll make a quick mock up of new color and sharpness etc...

[PaperPlunger]

i did edit it, but then decided it was going to take much more tha a quick edit, which didn't look bad, but it would need more

[rocksolid]

Here's some adjustments to start.



I know it makes a lot of the text less readable, but I can deal with that later if this deals with some of the colour issues.

I think this makes it clearer what the bonuses are, though it makes the legend panel look a little Pyjamaful.

[AndyDufresne]

Well lets see...


---You've got to start somewhere, hehe. Main thing I dislike about the visuals is that the map seems busy. Perhaps as others have suggested changing tones of the countries, adding texture, etc. Maybe look into using brown, instead of a pink/purple continent; Might be easier on the eyes. And of course work on the country name placement, and maybe color also.

---As for the legend, a standard legend, but surely could be improved on. Perhaps adding something local to spruce it up?

Some good starting points to improve the visuals. Take care on the visuals, and once they are stellar this could be an extremely appealing map perhaps!


--Andy

[rocksolid]

And again with a few more eggs in the omelette...

Need suggestions for the big area north of Dorval and south of St. Laurent. In real life, it's an industrial wasteland with rail yards, an airport and factories. I could do something like that unless someone has a brighter idea...

[Jota]

I agree with Andy about Laval. In fact, it might be beneficial to make Bout a less bold color as well. Perhaps a darker red, with lighter captions on it.

I think that the West End's bonus is too high. It's eight countries, with three borders. That'd suggest a three leaning towards four. The fact that it borders three different continents is probably enough to bump it up to a full four, but no higher.

There seem to be some kind of weird artifacts on this version of the map: black marks at the edges of Pointe-St-Charles, Boucherville, Dorval, LaSalle. I guess they're probably some kind of interference between the altered colors and the border lines? Should be cleaned up.

The little picture between Cote/Westmont/Downtown/Plateau/TMR is cute, but a little distracting. Not sure what to suggest there, since I approve of decorating maps with artwork, but disapprove of backgrounds that distract from foregrounds.

[Woah, looks like it updated while I was typing. My comments were for the previous edition. The colors in the new one are much nicer.]

[rocksolid]

Hey Jota, was your comment about the picture about the old version or the new version? I had hoped the new one solved the problem.

West End bonus - 5 armies for an 8-territory, 3-border, 3-access continent is almost identical to N. America on classic map.

I'll see what I can do about Laval's pink. I had wanted to keep it that way because it's one of Laval's official colours...as for bout-de-l'ile's red, I want to avoid making this map too dark, but I'll see what I can do...

[Jota]

The old one. As soon as I saw that you'd updated, I edited my post to add:

[Woah, looks like it updated while I was typing. My comments were for the previous edition. The colors in the new one are much nicer.]

[Dread Wains]

This is a much nicer map already. And although I appreciate the desire to have city bridges, I think a simple line bridge may be more appealing. Also perhaps the non-territory land could be some shade of grey?

[rocksolid]

Hmm...I'll get to the bridges. Here's some colour switches and a new attempt at the industrial park. Cleaned up islands and peninsulae off Dorval and LaSalle, but not yet Pt St Charles and Boucherville.

Are all the names legible?

[Jota]

This map is looking much, much better now. I notice there are also smudges between Cartierville and Chomdey and along Riviere-des-Prairies, and to a lesser degree by Jacques-Bizard and Ahuntsic. Also, I'm not sure if the colors of the West End, South Shore, and Transalpinia might be a bit too similar. They're easy to tell apart on the map itself, but it's harder to match the continents to the legend entries at a glance.

I'm not sure if the water is too busy or not. Something that was more stylistically similar to the non-country lots (like the cemetery) might fit better.

I still stand by my position on the West End's bonus.

Also, have I made my usual comment about the legend ordering? If it were ordered according to how the map itself is laid out (Ile Bizard, Laval, Suburbia, etc.) it might be a bit easier to read -- especially useful given the WE/SS/Ta color issue.

[rocksolid]

Another attempt at bridges. These look more like green sticks of dynamite, but had to try something.

Changed the colours to hopefully be less close together, and another version of water. Also cleaned up the islands.

[Hoff]

The map looks so much better now. Maybe Just a really simple line could represent bridges? And the yellow and orange territories are too close and look tosimilar.

[Marvaddin]

Can I suggest black letters in the legend, too? In the map you used black, so why not in the legend?

Great, much better now.

[rocksolid]

A couple of minor changes...

Yet another attempt at the infamous bridges. These ones are almost just straight lines while still hoping to suggest some kind of bridgelikenessitude.

Marv - Writing in the legend changed back to black - I had changed it to white for many of them just because I thought it was more readable than black on e.g. dark blue. I think I still prefer the white version from the previous posted version.

Hoff - Tried all I could with the yellow and orange. My roommate thinks you're colour blind, but there are more than a few colour blind people on this site, and they need to be able to play. Do other people really have trouble matching the legend colours orange and yellow up with their respective continents, or am I crazy? The only real solution I can think of is throwing pink back into the mix, which people seem to have a pretty strong aversion to...otherwise there's only so many hues to settle on - Red Orange Yellow Green Blue Purple/Magenta Cyan...brown's in there already too...I like the pink, but it is loud, and the yellow and orange are quieter partners. I stretched them apart on the hue spectrum as much as I could without darkening the map too much (I hate dark maps).

I also experimented with a bunch of textures that gave the map a tactile feel, but I really didn't like the look of any of them compared to the clean shaded style in this one. Since it's representing such a small geographical area, small bumps or carpetiness doesn't seem appropriate to me.

[Jota]

This is looking pretty good to me (aside from West End's bonus). But for the text in the legend, if you're turning it black to match the main map captions, shouldn't it have the same light highlight around it?