PERMABANS (though you did not know it!)

[Woodruff]

Banned words?!?! Get real!
Saying and using a word, depending on the situation is what makes particular words bad.
Example:
1. Boy, it sure is fucking hot!
2. You're a fucking idiot!
First example, is not to be considered vulgar. Second example is vulgar.

Well, both would be considered vulgar, but the first wouldn't be considered abusive toward anyone. For me, that's the real key.

As well, I am also against banning words, though for slightly different reasons. Jiminski and I have discussed this at length in another thread...banning words doesn't do ANY good and I would go so far as to say that it causes harm. Allow me to explain...if someone calls someone else the N word, then that's a clear-cut violation of the policy against bigotry...there is no grey area. Easy to moderate. But if a word-filter is in place, the individual will know this and they will simply word things to work around the word-filter, quite likely making it worded in such a way that now there IS some grey area to the offensive statement, resulting in a more difficult moderatory decision and likely a less harsh punishment.

[Woodruff]

Banned words?!?! Get real!

Saying and using a word, depending on the situation is what makes particular words bad.
Example:
1. Boy, it sure is fucking hot!
2. You're a fucking idiot!
First example, is not to be considered vulgar. Second example is vulgar.
Are we going to start banning words, because you're overly sensitive to certain words.
Perhaps, some of us feel that your avatar is politically incorrect and should be banned. Some might feel that mine is pornographic and should be tossed.
We all need to stop and think, before we start throwing posters out of the forum. C.C. needs to allow a diversity of opinion, not less of it.
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will ....

Why yes Stoneham, you're absolutely correct. I agree with all of your points. I don't think any words should be banned, at all, in any context, including here on CC. I was simply offering my "solution" to the problem of rascism, bigory, et. al. on this site. If people don't want it, ban the words. It will work. The problem, as I see it, is that certain people don't think enough is being done to combat the rampant rascim (and other bigotry) on this site. I just don't see it, but, then I'm not a member of an accepted racial minority. However, if we want the rascism to stop, we must ban all words that could be considered rascist in any context. Including the "n" word and the "k" word and the whatever other word anyone can think of.
Otherwise, I guess we just stick with the status quo until anyone who is offended enough leaves CC.

I don't believe it's an either-or situation. There are more alternatives than just the two.

[Woodruff]

I'm extremely happy about this thread. Despite some detours into trolling for which I and others are guilty, some real progress has been made, due in no small part to monkeyboy. Thank you andy for keeping this a genuine conversation.
It seems that we all agree bigotry is wrong.
It seems most agree there is too much on CC (though not all)
The discussion now seems to be:
a) What constitutes bigotry
b) What to do about it
I argue that you can't simply censor words. Watch: f*ck - f'uck
see, didn't work.
You can't ban bigotry using filters or fixed parameters -"You're an idiotic cotton picker" is the same as "You're a stupid n%%%er" in intent, but the "bad" words aren't used. Bigotry is a state of mind, an attitude.
So, my solution is to give mods the power to decide. However, this is an unfair task for the mods on their own. Even if they put in a superhuman effort (which I'm sure they do ) they would make mistakes. They need help. This can come in several ways:

• A comprehensive set of guidelines perhaps made by us/lack/andy/a reputable organisation that has already gone through this process
• Reporting devices as mentioned in andy's post above to highlight potential problems
• A clear procedure and punishment scale (as discussed and not yet resolved)
• The support of the community

As long as the policy is clear, strong, and enforced, it will work, even if not everyone agrees with it. The problems come with ambiguity and lack of consistent enforcement of stated rules.

Very well said!

[azezzo]

if c.c. is going to be banning words, which i am against, can i get a clarification on the following words. here in chicago the following words all have the same meaning.

1) monday
2) democrat
3) canadian

[squishyg]

I respectfully disagree. I don't think a gay couple should have to pretend to be just buddies when out in public for fear of being hit with a beer bottle because someone is offended by homosexuality. I think the right to be who you are and to not have to hide it trumps the right of someone who dislikes/hates/fears you.

That's the key point but I'm not sure you are right about it. You live in a diverse community (I would suppose) and tolerance in such a situation works both ways. It is not enough to say that everyone should be able to live as they want to live. What if two groups ideals are in conflict?

Should two gay chaps want to walk arm in arm I say all the power to them! But should they walk past the (fictional I hope) "Anti-homosexuality brotherhood of Islam" mosque and thus offend a religious group by doing so? Now I would say that the anti-gay group have as much right to have their feelings respected as the two gay chaps, regardless of whether I agree with their views or not.

So the sensible thing to do, in my hypothetical situation, would be for the two gay chaps to not walk arm in arm past the mosque. In the same manner, the anti-gay brotherhood shouldn't try to leaflet the local gay bar either.

It is all about tolerance, you see? Quiet, dignified, tolerance.

Let me put it another way. If the KKK wants to hold a rally in a city, they have every right to do so (providing they go through the proper channels to get a permit and all). But they should fully expect that they're not necessarily going to get a warm reception from everyone at that rally. So yes, they have the right to show who they are, but there are still potential consequences to those actions that can reasonably be foreseen and expected (but not condoned, because I actually wouldn't condone someone physically interfering with the KKK rally, despite my personal feelings about the group).

Does that make sense?

It does, but as a private institution cc has the right to limit who gets to hold a rally and who doesn't. Heck, you don't even have to be a private institution to say "no" to someone. Communities have banded together to prevent Walmart from opening up in a town where Walmart isn't wanted due to it's corporate policies and it's impact on small businesses. If we as a community don't want something (i.e. bigotry), we can ask our leaders to not allow it. They can take our suggestion or not. Our leaders also have the right to lay down a law and say "here's the deal, no name calling". Just because people want the right to use the n-word and to insult Poles doesn't mean anyone has to grant them that right. Some people didn't like the idea of interracial marriage, but it was legalized. Some people still don't like the sight of people of two different races holding hands.

When you say "no" to behavior that demeans others, it will always be unpopular amongst people who like to dehumanize those people. You will not win them over. It doesn't mean bigots should just get their way. Just do what's right.

[Woodruff]

I respectfully disagree. I don't think a gay couple should have to pretend to be just buddies when out in public for fear of being hit with a beer bottle because someone is offended by homosexuality. I think the right to be who you are and to not have to hide it trumps the right of someone who dislikes/hates/fears you.

That's the key point but I'm not sure you are right about it. You live in a diverse community (I would suppose) and tolerance in such a situation works both ways. It is not enough to say that everyone should be able to live as they want to live. What if two groups ideals are in conflict?

Should two gay chaps want to walk arm in arm I say all the power to them! But should they walk past the (fictional I hope) "Anti-homosexuality brotherhood of Islam" mosque and thus offend a religious group by doing so? Now I would say that the anti-gay group have as much right to have their feelings respected as the two gay chaps, regardless of whether I agree with their views or not.

So the sensible thing to do, in my hypothetical situation, would be for the two gay chaps to not walk arm in arm past the mosque. In the same manner, the anti-gay brotherhood shouldn't try to leaflet the local gay bar either.

It is all about tolerance, you see? Quiet, dignified, tolerance.

Let me put it another way. If the KKK wants to hold a rally in a city, they have every right to do so (providing they go through the proper channels to get a permit and all). But they should fully expect that they're not necessarily going to get a warm reception from everyone at that rally. So yes, they have the right to show who they are, but there are still potential consequences to those actions that can reasonably be foreseen and expected (but not condoned, because I actually wouldn't condone someone physically interfering with the KKK rally, despite my personal feelings about the group).

Does that make sense?

It does, but as a private institution cc has the right to limit who gets to hold a rally and who doesn't. Heck, you don't even have to be a private institution to say "no" to someone. Communities have banded together to prevent Walmart from opening up in a town where Walmart isn't wanted due to it's corporate policies and it's impact on small businesses. If we as a community don't want something (i.e. bigotry), we can ask our leaders to not allow it. They can take our suggestion or not. Our leaders also have the right to lay down a law and say "here's the deal, no name calling". Just because people want the right to use the n-word and to insult Poles doesn't mean anyone has to grant them that right. Some people didn't like the idea of interracial marriage, but it was legalized. Some people still don't like the sight of people of two different races holding hands.
When you say "no" to behavior that demeans others, it will always be unpopular amongst people who like to dehumanize those people. You will not win them over. It doesn't mean bigots should just get their way. Just do what's right.

Oh, I agree completely. If you haven't noticed, I'm right out in the forefront of the "anti-abuse" folks around here. I'm just saying that Changcha's point about "reactions that can be expected" does make sense. Tolerance DOES work both ways. Just as the KKK need to be tolerated if they've got a legal permit, those KKK individuals NOT at a legal rally need to tolerate...well...all the damn many people they don't like. Tolerance DOES take the form of "not pushing yourself on others", as well (not that Sam or whatever his name is was doing that).

[Suzy1]

In all seriousness, let's be honest, white people using the "N" word are called racists. But no one uses the "N" word more than "African Americans" themselves!

And pray tell, where would you find this information to be actually true?

I live near New Orleans. I have been many other places and nowhere is that word used more by their own race than here. If you think that I would say this just to make a racial statement, you couldn't be more wrong. If you think this isn't true, come see for yourself.

So, let me get this straight...out of 6 billion people in the world using New Orleans as your statistical figure, your so-called fact that the "N" word is more oft used by black people than anyone else? Ummm...yeah. I don't think so. That's just being ignorant Suzy.

I was going to leave this alone because as you can see it is really a subject that there is no resolution to. I do not base my statement just on that fact. Unless you live on another planet, it is common knowledge that yes the "N" word is used in more circles among the African American race than white people because it is acceptable when used by them. Rap music is full of bigotry. And what race are most of these Rappers? Nothing is done about it because it is freedom of expression through music. Perhaps you live somehwere, where it isn't forced upon you. I was raised to be kind to everyone no matter the color of skin or because theya re less fortunate. I try to live by that example. I am by no means ignorant and don't appreciate you getting personal with me because you don't like what I posted. If you really think that this isn't going on more often than not, you are in for a rude awakening. Please send me a one way ticket to the planet you are living on!

[mpjh]

It is called "civil rights."

[Suzy1]

I just want to point out that in a couple of my games here, I was called a few really inappropriate names for no reason at all. I followed the guidelines, sent in a ticket, etc. Nothing was done about it. I was merely told to place them on my foe list, which I had already done. When I signed up for Conquerclub, I was under the impression that this was not tolerated. But that isn't the case at all. I find it rather hypocritical that there is such an issue being taken here when there are indeed other types of bigotry that are just dismissed. I let it go and considered it water over the dam. Maybe it's time to lock this thread and move on. Other threads have been locked for far less than what has been discussed here.

[a.sub]

I just want to point out that in a couple of my games here, I was called a few really inappropriate names for no reason at all. I followed the guidelines, sent in a ticket, etc. Nothing was done about it. I was merely told to place them on my foe list, which I had already done. When I signed up for Conquerclub, I was under the impression that this was not tolerated. But that isn't the case at all. I find it rather hypocritical that there is such an issue being taken here when there are indeed other types of bigotry that are just dismissed. I let it go and considered it water over the dam. Maybe it's time to lock this thread and move on. Other threads have been locked for far less than what has been discussed here.

despite your trippy avvy i must say that is a HORRID idea
we are finally making great progress on such an issue
Andy is helping us to make sure that we have direct access to the top
and we have some great ideas and discussion being thrown around here
why stop it?
because thats what we did before?
NO
its called progress which i think we are makign a lot of here
DONT LOCK THIS THREAD
especially with mod and admin interference this thread is actually good for this site

[Suzy1]

I can appreciate that if it will indeed progress to a positive outcome. I will keep my views to myself and move on. If what I posted offended anyone, it was not my intention. I should not have said among all African Americans but among a certain generation of them. I think the only thing I said directly to anyone was about Owen's planet. Is there other life form there? I am jk. Good luck resolving this issue!

[ronsizzle]

well that was unexpected. i like this new management better and better everyday. thank you teamcc.

i received a pm today saying because of my contributions to this site, that they gave me premium for a year!

i guess i wont wait til this topic ends to buy premium. thanks guys

[owenator]

well that was unexpected. i like this new management better and better everyday. thank you teamcc.

i received a pm today saying because of my contributions to this site, that they gave me premium for a year!

i guess i wont wait til this topic ends to buy premium. thanks guys

HEY!! I want in! How do I get in on that?!! <grumble, grumble>

[thelastpatriot]

In all seriousness, let's be honest, white people using the "N" word are called racists. But no one uses the "N" word more than "African Americans" themselves!

And pray tell, where would you find this information to be actually true?

I live near New Orleans. I have been many other places and nowhere is that word used more by their own race than here. If you think that I would say this just to make a racial statement, you couldn't be more wrong. If you think this isn't true, come see for yourself.

So, let me get this straight...out of 6 billion people in the world using New Orleans as your statistical figure, your so-called fact that the "N" word is more oft used by black people than anyone else? Ummm...yeah. I don't think so. That's just being ignorant Suzy.

I was going to leave this alone because as you can see it is really a subject that there is no resolution to. I do not base my statement just on that fact. Unless you live on another planet, it is common knowledge that yes the "N" word is used in more circles among the African American race than white people because it is acceptable when used by them. Rap music is full of bigotry. And what race are most of these Rappers? Nothing is done about it because it is freedom of expression through music. Perhaps you live somewhere, where it isn't forced upon you. I was raised to be kind to everyone no matter the color of skin or because theya re less fortunate. I try to live by that example. I am by no means ignorant and don't appreciate you getting personal with me because you don't like what I posted. If you really think that this isn't going on more often than not, you are in for a rude awakening. Please send me a one way ticket to the planet you are living on!

First and foremost. This is nothing personal to anyone. I do not like this topic because I believe that it brings out the worst in people. And I must say by some of the comments on here I see it has already happened. I think this should be a locked topic because there are alot of "smart" people on this site. But the unfortunate part of this site is there are probably very few with "street smarts". I spent 13 years as a repo man in some of the worst cities including Youngstown, Oh, Baton Rouge and New Orleans, LA and Houston, Tx. I have seen more then my share of bigotry, racism, reverse racism, and discrimination. One city is completely different from another almost always. New Orleans has a black population of 64%, probably less since the storms. Making a comment that she is ignorant when you live in a city that has a black population of 8% doesn't make any since. I know from my own experience she is telling the truth. But it is used in slang not offensive. If it came from a white person instead most of the time it would be perceived completely different. Please shut this topic down. I have already seen 3 or 4 post on hear that are turning people against each other. This is a game site lets not try to make this a "politically correct site"

[Woodruff]

I can appreciate that if it will indeed progress to a positive outcome. I will keep my views to myself and move on. If what I posted offended anyone, it was not my intention. I should not have said among all African Americans but among a certain generation of them. I think the only thing I said directly to anyone was about Owen's planet. Is there other life form there? I am jk. Good luck resolving this issue!

Please don't "keep your views to yourself and move on"...this is a community and as such, all views should be heard. Everyone is going to disagree with someone's view, but if all views aren't heard (in a constructive manner, of course), then an intelligent and strong decision is less likely to happen.

[Woodruff]

well that was unexpected. i like this new management better and better everyday. thank you teamcc.
i received a pm today saying because of my contributions to this site, that they gave me premium for a year!

That is awesome! Now don't get it taken away! <big grin>

[ronsizzle]

an intelligent and strong decision is less likely to happen.

what do i have to do to help?

[Artimis]

Does/should the definition of bigotry be extended to include blasphemy?

That would drop a lot of legitimate and serious religious debates in Off Topics in the shit, I'm not in favour of that at all. It would create another excuse for vindictive trolls to complain in C&A, I'm quite sure the mods who regularly patrol the message board just don't want their work load quintupled.

As noted earlier in this thread, religion is a choice, not an hereditary trait.

[xelabale]

First and foremost. This is nothing personal to anyone. I do not like this topic because I believe that it brings out the worst in people. And I must say by some of the comments on here I see it has already happened. I think this should be a locked topic because there are alot of "smart" people on this site. But the unfortunate part of this site is there are probably very few with "street smarts". I spent 13 years as a repo man in some of the worst cities including Youngstown, Oh, Baton Rouge and New Orleans, LA and Houston, Tx. I have seen more then my share of bigotry, racism, reverse racism, and discrimination. One city is completely different from another almost always. New Orleans has a black population of 64%, probably less since the storms. Making a comment that she is ignorant when you live in a city that has a black population of 8% doesn't make any since. I know from my own experience she is telling the truth. But it is used in slang not offensive. If it came from a white person instead most of the time it would be perceived completely different. Please shut this topic down. I have already seen 3 or 4 post on hear that are turning people against each other. This is a game site lets not try to make this a "politically correct site"

This is a genuine conversation. There are really good ideas. We are discussing a sensitive, difficult area. There is some cut and thrust of debate, but people who often troll or behave badly are contributing to this thread extremely positively. It seems there is genuine desire to come to an agreement about a difficult issue. Why on earth would you want to lock this thread and stifle this debate? This is not about 1 instance of word use, this thread is about discussing a problem and trying to find a solution. Early on there were some personality clashes. Andy steered us to genuine discussion. There are some really good ideas floating around and some interesting points of view.

Rise above the personal level, re-read andy's page 20 summary and comments from there, and see what positives can be brought to the debate.

[owenator]

First and foremost. This is nothing personal to anyone. I do not like this topic because I believe that it brings out the worst in people. And I must say by some of the comments on here I see it has already happened. I think this should be a locked topic because there are alot of "smart" people on this site. But the unfortunate part of this site is there are probably very few with "street smarts". I spent 13 years as a repo man in some of the worst cities including Youngstown, Oh, Baton Rouge and New Orleans, LA and Houston, Tx. I have seen more then my share of bigotry, racism, reverse racism, and discrimination. One city is completely different from another almost always. New Orleans has a black population of 64%, probably less since the storms. Making a comment that she is ignorant when you live in a city that has a black population of 8% doesn't make any since. I know from my own experience she is telling the truth. But it is used in slang not offensive. If it came from a white person instead most of the time it would be perceived completely different. Please shut this topic down. I have already seen 3 or 4 post on hear that are turning people against each other. This is a game site lets not try to make this a "politically correct site"

This is a genuine conversation. There are really good ideas. We are discussing a sensitive, difficult area. There is some cut and thrust of debate, but people who often troll or behave badly are contributing to this thread extremely positively. It seems there is genuine desire to come to an agreement about a difficult issue. Why on earth would you want to lock this thread and stifle this debate? This is not about 1 instance of word use, this thread is about discussing a problem and trying to find a solution. Early on there were some personality clashes. Andy steered us to genuine discussion. There are some really good ideas floating around and some interesting points of view.

Rise above the personal level, re-read andy's page 20 summary and comments from there, and see what positives can be brought to the debate.

I agree. There is no reason to lock it unless it obviously gets out of hand. I can appreciate different people's opinions or views on such a touchy subject. thelastpatriot, just for the record...if you carefully reviewed my conversation back and forth with Suzy1, you can appreciate/understand why I stated that her comment seemed ignorant. It wasn't meant to insult nor bait her into a heated exchange of wars. I was merely not understanding how and why someone would blurt out how mostly black people use the "N" word. And that was the premise of why I chose to say that she was being ignorant. Furthermore, when she stated that her supporting evidence of said comment was based on African American's from New Orleans as the basis of this - I, once again had to point out that this was not enough justification proving that black people use this word more than anyone else. Lastly, there is much need for debate on this topic. Why? Well if one took the time (which could take forever) to read through the thread, it initially starts off with racism and then finally expanded to the original subject heading of defining bigotry. To dissect, analyze, and compromise, is certainly a necessity. I don't need to over-kill with analogies again, but instead - this is something that in my opinion will bring more diplomacy to CC. Which is why methinks "Flame Wars" was removed. It helps with the integrity of sportsmanship, honour, integrity, respect in all games. BUT, we can still discriminate - against that damn dice.

[Woodruff]

an intelligent and strong decision is less likely to happen.

what do i have to do to help?

You're against an intelligent and strong decision?

[GENERAL STONEHAM]

an intelligent and strong decision is less likely to happen.

what do i have to do to help?

You're against an intelligent and strong decision?

Look out Woodruff, you're bordering on FLAMING.

Meanwhile, back on track. "Andy" has done a wonderful job of keeping this thread "civil," considering the characters who post here. Other than that, we should keep this thread going, until most of us have come to an agreement with "Andy" of how to reduce the instances of bigotry, with-out a heavy-handed approach.

[thelastpatriot]

First and foremost. This is nothing personal to anyone. I do not like this topic because I believe that it brings out the worst in people. And I must say by some of the comments on here I see it has already happened. I think this should be a locked topic because there are alot of "smart" people on this site. But the unfortunate part of this site is there are probably very few with "street smarts". I spent 13 years as a repo man in some of the worst cities including Youngstown, Oh, Baton Rouge and New Orleans, LA and Houston, Tx. I have seen more then my share of bigotry, racism, reverse racism, and discrimination. One city is completely different from another almost always. New Orleans has a black population of 64%, probably less since the storms. Making a comment that she is ignorant when you live in a city that has a black population of 8% doesn't make any since. I know from my own experience she is telling the truth. But it is used in slang not offensive. If it came from a white person instead most of the time it would be perceived completely different. Please shut this topic down. I have already seen 3 or 4 post on hear that are turning people against each other. This is a game site lets not try to make this a "politically correct site"

This is a genuine conversation. There are really good ideas. We are discussing a sensitive, difficult area. There is some cut and thrust of debate, but people who often troll or behave badly are contributing to this thread extremely positively. It seems there is genuine desire to come to an agreement about a difficult issue. Why on earth would you want to lock this thread and stifle this debate? This is not about 1 instance of word use, this thread is about discussing a problem and trying to find a solution. Early on there were some personality clashes. Andy steered us to genuine discussion. There are some really good ideas floating around and some interesting points of view.

Rise above the personal level, re-read andy's page 20 summary and comments from there, and see what positives can be brought to the debate.

I agree. There is no reason to lock it unless it obviously gets out of hand. I can appreciate different people's opinions or views on such a touchy subject. thelastpatriot, just for the record...if you carefully reviewed my conversation back and forth with Suzy1, you can appreciate/understand why I stated that her comment seemed ignorant. It wasn't meant to insult nor bait her into a heated exchange of wars. I was merely not understanding how and why someone would blurt out how mostly black people use the "N" word. And that was the premise of why I chose to say that she was being ignorant. Furthermore, when she stated that her supporting evidence of said comment was based on African American's from New Orleans as the basis of this - I, once again had to point out that this was not enough justification proving that black people use this word more than anyone else. Lastly, there is much need for debate on this topic. Why? Well if one took the time (which could take forever) to read through the thread, it initially starts off with racism and then finally expanded to the original subject heading of defining bigotry. To dissect, analyze, and compromise, is certainly a necessity. I don't need to over-kill with analogies again, but instead - this is something that in my opinion will bring more diplomacy to CC. Which is why methinks "Flame Wars" was removed. It helps with the integrity of sportsmanship, honour, integrity, respect in all games. BUT, we can still discriminate - against that damn dice.

LOL, Ok lets get back to reality. First your ideas on racism is as deep as bath water. I see everyone jumping on the "N" word band wagon trying to be racially politically correct. Or the defender of the gay movements. But one comment got no response at all. I'm not sure if the comment was a test or how this person really feels but it was never given a second glance. Why. Because it was made about white, christian men. Here is the comment just in case you over looked it:



Re: Bigotry on CC

Postby mpjh » Fri May 22, 2009 11:19 am
I find that white, male, fundamentalist christians miss more turns than others.

This world has a very narrow minded view on racism and discrimination. Everyone wants to change the world you all want to make it better. Racism and discrimination has to be addressed from every angle not just the ones we choose.

[Rocketry]

Why is this thread so popular? Bigotry is just a part of the internet. People are not respectful to unknown strangers. Deal with it.

Rocket.

[ronsizzle]

Why is this thread so popular? Bigotry is just a part of the internet. People are not respectful to unknown strangers. Deal with it.

Rocket.

jesus h christ we have a winner! give the man his award!

and no woodruff, what i meant earlier was that i am for nothing being done.

you ever see brewsters millions? vote for none of the above people.