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God is Existentially Independent

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God is Existentially Independent

Postby KLOBBER on Tue May 26, 2009 8:36 pm

INTRODUCTION:

God has revealed many facts about Himself in various scriptures all over the world.

One of the things that He has revealed about Himself, in various languages, is that He is the one and only Existentially Independent Entity -- that He exists eternally, without ever having not existed, that He requires no creator, and has no cause preceding Him, logically or temporally. He has stated this in many different ways, in many different languages. He has also stated, in many different languages, that we are "in His image," that we possess some of the characteristics that He possesses, and that we derive all of our limited characteristics, from His infinite stock of perfect characteristics.

My statements here in this introduction are accurate paraphrases of His scriptural statements about Himself, and are therefore not up for debate.

The following 8 points, in burgundy, are up for debate in this thread, as they are based on science and logic, not necessarily on revealed scripture. There's a certain beauty in logical simplicity, also known as Occam's Razor, so please let's keep this as succinct as possible:

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1. Some entities observably depend on others for existence.

2. There is an observable chain of existential dependence among entities.

3. Some entities in this chain possess observable personal characteristics.

4. Following the chain of existential dependence back in time, logic inevitably leads to an existentially independent entity -- one that depends on no other for existence.

5. The atheist refers to this entity as "the universe," and lacks the ability to follow the chain any further back than that, either logically or temporally. There may be other terms the atheist makes up for this existentially independent entity, but just ike the term, "the universe," each one refers to an impersonal entity -- one possessing no personal characteristics.

6. The Theists refer to this entity as God, and He possesses personal characteristics.

7. The fact that God Himself possesses personal characteristics easily explains the existence of our own personal characteristics -- existentially dependent entities can only derive their various characteristics from entities possessing such characteristics themselves.

8. Impersonal entities cannot manifest personal characteristics or bestow them upon others. The absolute lack of personal characteristics in the atheist's notion of our ultimate origin fails to account for the undeniable existence of our own personal characteristics.


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CONTRIBUTIONS, REFUTATIONS, CLARIFICATIONS:

I'm hoping to have a productive discussion on these 8 points. With extremely rare exceptions, I have found the atheist to be basically incapable of discussing such subjects rationally, without descending into personal insults, sadly. However, hope springs eternal, and perhaps there are some Theists on this forum, or people on the fence, who can contribute something of value.

If so, I will edit this original post to include your ideas.

I'm also open to attempts at refutation of any of the above 8 points, but diverging from sound logic and valid scriptural references will be unproductive in this thread. Any successful refutations based on sound logic, valid scriptural references, or both will also result in changes to the original post, which should add an interesting twist to this conversation.

Respectful requests for clarification on any of the above points will also be honored.

CONCLUSION:

Aside from any contributions, refutations, or clarifications to the above 8 points, the conclusion is that all posters on this thread are in agreement, once and for all, with all of them, and that the atheistic opinion utterly fails to explain our ultimate origin, whereas the Theists offer a perfectly logical and complete explanation for our ultimate origin.
Last edited by KLOBBER on Thu May 28, 2009 9:34 am, edited 28 times in total.
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Re: God is Existentially Independent

Postby owheelj on Tue May 26, 2009 8:53 pm

There are many conclusions you make that I don't understand, but before I address those I need to understand what you're actually saying.

What do you mean by "personality?"

What do you mean when you say that some entities depend on others for their existence? Can you give some examples?

Thanks.
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Re: God is Existentially Independent

Postby pmchugh on Tue May 26, 2009 8:58 pm

If I understand you correctly what you refer to as personality is mearly created from your surroundings and how you react to them based upon you chemical make up, eg. genes.

You are talking of Occam's Razor, but as far as i am aware the simplist explanation for me does not involve a perfect being who created an imperfect race to judge them on how near to perfect they can get :? Why did he not create a perfect race? Why did he allow bad? Can he create an object too heavy for himself to lift? etc. It is not simple, explaining a perfect being adds to the complexity of the situation.

Science has time and time again proved parts of religion wrong, yet religion has never proved any part of itself. The more we understand the world the less likely religion and therefore a perfect being becomes.
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Re: God is Existentially Independent

Postby jonesthecurl on Tue May 26, 2009 10:41 pm

I spotted that you included "logic dictates" in there. Naughty troll.
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Re: God is Existentially Independent

Postby Simon Viavant on Tue May 26, 2009 11:07 pm

Klobber, I'm disappointed.

You're usually one of the most worthy and hilarious trolls out there, and deserve congratulations.
But this thread is utterly stale and boring. I guess it could get better over time when you respond to arguments, though.
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Re: God is Existentially Independent

Postby b.k. barunt on Wed May 27, 2009 12:19 am

This from the genius who runs screaming to the mods when someone badmouths the Koran and/or the ragheads who embrace it. Amazing.
I find this thread to pose a couple of crucial questions to a complex problem on a very basic level of logic. Maybe kittycat boy here could actually learn something if he were able to rein in the diarrhea of the mouth for a change. To optimistic?


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Re: God is Existentially Independent

Postby b.k. barunt on Wed May 27, 2009 12:31 am

owheelj wrote:There are many conclusions you make that I don't understand, but before I address those I need to understand what you're actually saying.

What do you mean by "personality?"


If i might be so bold, and Klobber can correct me if i'm wrong, but your personality is what Freud referred to as the ego, or self. The Bible refers to the same as the "soul". Your personality is comprised of your mind, will and emotions. It contains all of your personality traits and characteristics.

owlheelj wrote: What do you mean when you say that some entities depend on others for their existence? Can you give some examples?

Thanks.


You and i are entities who depend on others for our existence in that we had to be born into this world through another person and nurtured to an age where we could care for ourselves. There's more to it, but i'm just helping on the bare essentials and Klobber can fill you in more on what he had in mind. Klobber, i hope i'm not out of line chipping in here, but i think we're on the same page, and like i said you can correct me if i'm wrong. This is a good thread and i thought i'd help you move it along as it seems you've gone to bed for the night.


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Re: God is Existentially Independent

Postby TheProwler on Wed May 27, 2009 1:27 am

Personality is overrated.

I'm an ass man.
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Re: God is Existentially Independent

Postby b.k. barunt on Wed May 27, 2009 1:38 am

TheProwler wrote:Personality is overrated.

I'm an ass, man.


No argument here.


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Re: God is Existentially Independent

Postby xelabale on Wed May 27, 2009 1:56 am

KLOBBER wrote:God has revealed many facts about Himself in various scriptures all over the world.

In order for this to be true you must accept the existence of God. Thus if you accept this to be true you must agree with the proposed points.
If you do not accept the existence of God this statement must be false. Thus the whole argument must be false.

Thus we can reduce the complicated argument to - Is this statement true?
As we can neither prove nor disprove it nor logically decide, we must conclude that we should be drinking beer instead of responding to this thread - doh...
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Re: God is Existentially Independent

Postby TheProwler on Wed May 27, 2009 2:14 am

b.k. barunt, while bending over, wrote:
TheProwler wrote:Personality is overrated.

I'm an ass, man.


No argument here.

I told you before, not interested.

What I did to you in Flame Wars was only "figuratively"...
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Re: God is Existentially Independent

Postby b.k. barunt on Wed May 27, 2009 2:22 am

xelabale wrote:
KLOBBER wrote:God has revealed many facts about Himself in various scriptures all over the world.

In order for this to be true you must accept the existence of God. Thus if you accept this to be true you must agree with the proposed points.
If you do not accept the existence of God this statement must be false. Thus the whole argument must be false.

Thus we can reduce the complicated argument to - Is this statement true?
As we can neither prove nor disprove it nor logically decide, we must conclude that we should be drinking beer instead of responding to this thread - doh...


Actually belief in God is only necessary to agree with the opening statement. You could leave that out and still have points 1-8 open for discussion. This isn't an empirically provable subject either way, but some would find it more interesting than drinking beer, or, more interesting after having had a few. Enjoy.

Btw, i apologize for the troll - he occasionally follows me around after he goes to my profile and hits "Search User's Posts". If you ignore him he goes away, sometimes.


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Re: God is Existentially Independent

Postby TheProwler on Wed May 27, 2009 2:30 am

b.k. barunt, unable to stand straight due to a cramp in his lower back from all the bending over, wrote:Btw, i apologize ...

That is a sign of weakness.
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Re: God is Existentially Independent

Postby MrPanzerGeneral on Wed May 27, 2009 2:40 am

TheProwler wrote:
b.k. barunt, unable to stand straight due to a cramp in his lower back from all the bending over, wrote:Btw, i apologize ...

That is a sign of weakness.


Apoligies are NEVER a sign of weakness. In fact they are a sign of personal strength !
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Re: God is Existentially Independent

Postby TheProwler on Wed May 27, 2009 2:45 am

MrPanzerGeneral wrote:
TheProwler wrote:
b.k. barunt, unable to stand straight due to a cramp in his lower back from all the bending over, wrote:Btw, i apologize ...

That is a sign of weakness.


Apoligies are NEVER a sign of weakness. In fact they are a sign of personal strength !

I meant his inability to stand straight....
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Re: God is Existentially Independent

Postby xelabale on Wed May 27, 2009 2:46 am

b.k. barunt wrote:
xelabale wrote:
KLOBBER wrote:God has revealed many facts about Himself in various scriptures all over the world.

In order for this to be true you must accept the existence of God. Thus if you accept this to be true you must agree with the proposed points.
If you do not accept the existence of God this statement must be false. Thus the whole argument must be false.

Thus we can reduce the complicated argument to - Is this statement true?
As we can neither prove nor disprove it nor logically decide, we must conclude that we should be drinking beer instead of responding to this thread - doh...


Actually belief in God is only necessary to agree with the opening statement. You could leave that out and still have points 1-8 open for discussion. This isn't an empirically provable subject either way, but some would find it more interesting than drinking beer, or, more interesting after having had a few. Enjoy.

Btw, i apologize for the troll - he occasionally follows me around after he goes to my profile and hits "Search User's Posts". If you ignore him he goes away, sometimes.


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You could, but then what's the point of the first 2 paragraphs? OP obviously believes this is important...
Also OP is calling for a logical answer where none exists, so why not cut the complicated pseudo-logic and just debate the first point as it's essentially the same debate but gives less room for trol..... oh, I see.

By the way I like your pet troll, he's kinda cute in a way only truly ugly things can be.
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Re: God is Existentially Independent

Postby KLOBBER on Wed May 27, 2009 2:48 am

owheelj wrote:There are many conclusions you make that I don't understand, but before I address those I need to understand what you're actually saying.

What do you mean by "personality?"

What do you mean when you say that some entities depend on others for their existence? Can you give some examples?

Thanks.


I'm sorry to hear that you're having a hard time understanding.

Simple word definitions are found in dictionaries.

Your body, as one example, is existentially dependent on the bodies of your ancestors. Their bodies are existentially dependent on their ancestors' bodies, &c.
Last edited by KLOBBER on Thu May 28, 2009 6:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: God is Existentially Independent

Postby TheProwler on Wed May 27, 2009 2:53 am

xelabale, ignorant to the real facts, wrote:By the way I like your pet troll, he's kinda cute in a way only truly ugly things can be.

Kudos of the explanation of why you consider your girlfriend "cute".

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=85067&start=0&hilit=assprowler&p=1983060&view=show#p1983060

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=84923&start=45&hilit=assprowler&p=1980895&view=show#p1980895

There's many more.


Now continue with your serious discussion based around a seriously ridiculous premise. Wouldn't want a little trolling to spoil your fun. All sizes of brains need stimulation to continue to function.
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Re: God is Existentially Independent

Postby KLOBBER on Wed May 27, 2009 2:54 am

b.k. barunt wrote:...You could leave that out and still have points 1-8 open for discussion....


Yes, I meant that we were discussing points 1-8 only. I will edit the first page to be more clear on this.

Done!
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Re: God is Existentially Independent

Postby xelabale on Wed May 27, 2009 3:00 am

TheProwler wrote:
xelabale, ignorant to the real facts, wrote:By the way I like your pet troll, he's kinda cute in a way only truly ugly things can be.

Kudos of the explanation of why you consider your girlfriend "cute".

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=85067&start=0&hilit=assprowler&p=1983060&view=show#p1983060

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=84923&start=45&hilit=assprowler&p=1980895&view=show#p1980895

There's many more.


Now continue with your serious discussion based around a seriously ridiculous premise. Wouldn't want a little trolling to spoil your fun. All sizes of brains need stimulation to continue to function.

Why's the premise ridiculous?
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Re: God is Existentially Independent

Postby TheProwler on Wed May 27, 2009 3:05 am

Haha!

Yeah, life from no life, that's easy to grasp.

But personality from no personality?!?!?! It just can't be!!!

Single-celled organisms evolving to homo sapiens. Piece of cake.

But homo sapiens with a sense of humour!?!?!?! I just don't buy it!!!

Hahaha! Ridiculous!
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Re: God is Existentially Independent

Postby xelabale on Wed May 27, 2009 3:10 am

TheProwler wrote:Haha!

Yeah, life from no life, that's easy to grasp.

But personality from no personality?!?!?! It just can't be!!!

Single-celled organisms evolving to homo sapiens. Piece of cake.

But homo sapiens with a sense of humour!?!?!?! I just don't buy it!!!

Hahaha! Ridiculous!

Careful, you're getting drawn into the actual topic and there may be a danger you are contributing positively. Stand down private Prowler. How will this look?
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Re: God is Existentially Independent

Postby TheProwler on Wed May 27, 2009 3:12 am

xelabale wrote:
TheProwler wrote:Haha!

Yeah, life from no life, that's easy to grasp.

But personality from no personality?!?!?! It just can't be!!!

Single-celled organisms evolving to homo sapiens. Piece of cake.

But homo sapiens with a sense of humour!?!?!?! I just don't buy it!!!

Hahaha! Ridiculous!

Careful, you're getting drawn into the actual topic and there may be a danger you are contributing positively. Stand down private Prowler. How will this look?

I thought it was pretty obvious.

If it takes you 12 pages and a lot of name-calling to figure it out, carry on.
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Re: God is Existentially Independent

Postby xelabale on Wed May 27, 2009 3:14 am

No no, you carry on, you're the one debating the topic. I expect Klobber's gonna rip into you!!

Come on, don't back down now Prowler, you've stated your opinion on the subject and put up some interesting counter-arguments, you're too far into this debate to disappear now...
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Re: God is Existentially Independent

Postby TheProwler on Wed May 27, 2009 3:31 am

xelabale wrote:No no, you carry on, you're the one debating the topic. I expect Klobber's gonna rip into you!!

Come on, don't back down now Prowler, you've stated your opinion on the subject and put up some interesting counter-arguments, you're too far into this debate to disappear now...

Are you so naive to think that I'd back down from Klobber? Are you new?

BTW, Klobber will not rip into me. We share a level of respect for each other that most of you will never understand.
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