Continuation of Christianity debate.

[heavycola]

You would also be hard pressed to find a religion in the history of the world that had a creator reaching out to reconcile His creation to Him.

But so what? This is circular. Within xianity exists this belief, which then sets apart xianity. It is of no use as an argument. This need for 'blood atonement' doesn't exist outside your belief system. It is not brute fact at all. You guys talk about your faith as if its tenets were a priori knowledge when that is so headsmackingly obviously not the case. And your post seems to state that apart from the poor unsaved jews, everyone else is ready to accept that theirs is not the only way. This, of course, does not apply to xians, because everything else is only falsehood and superstition.

You will not be forced, you will recognize Christ as Lord and that you will know you had the option to accept him as such. And, will bow because His is the Glory.

You 'know' this, just as strongly as Mohammed Attar knew he would shortly be in paradise with 72 virgins. But xianity, a very young religion relatively speaking, trumps every other mystical, numinous experience humans have been having for the past 10,000 years. The australian abroigines have had their own faith for longer than that, and yet god never had anything to do with them. But Zoroaster, Jeremiah, their experiences were no less valid than yours.

Liek you said, the strength of your belief has no bearing on its truth

[Kokunai]

You would also be hard pressed to find a religion in the history of the world that had a creator reaching out to reconcile His creation to Him.

But so what? This is circular. Within xianity exists this belief, which then sets apart xianity. It is of no use as an argument. This need for 'blood atonement' doesn't exist outside your belief system. It is not brute fact at all. You guys talk about your faith as if its tenets were a priori knowledge when that is so headsmackingly obviously not the case. And your post seems to state that apart from the poor unsaved jews, everyone else is ready to accept that theirs is not the only way. This, of course, does not apply to xians, because everything else is only falsehood and superstition.

You will not be forced, you will recognize Christ as Lord and that you will know you had the option to accept him as such. And, will bow because His is the Glory.

You 'know' this, just as strongly as Mohammed Attar knew he would shortly be in paradise with 72 virgins. But xianity, a very young religion relatively speaking, trumps every other mystical, numinous experience humans have been having for the past 10,000 years. The australian abroigines have had their own faith for longer than that, and yet god never had anything to do with them. But Zoroaster, Jeremiah, their experiences were no less valid than yours.

Liek you said, the strength of your belief has no bearing on its truth

I did not mean for those to be basis for believing, I am merely pointing out that it is not like any other religion out there.

You misconstrued what I said. I said that my belief has no bearing on the reality of God's and Christ's existence. They exist whether any of us like it or not.

Many have believed differently but as an argument against all belief that is weak. I am not trying to convince you I am merely putting it out there. Like, I said it is not for me to save you but Christ, if it is his will then you will know the truth if not then you won't. It all rests between you and him.

[heavycola]

Many have believed differently but as an argument against all belief that is weak. I am not trying to convince you I am merely putting it out there. Like, I said it is not for me to save you but Christ, if it is his will then you will know the truth if not then you won't. It all rests between you and him.

Understood. And likewise I hope that one day you can understand that this is all just fiction, that life is nought but a glorious accident and that to move forward the human race has to advance beyond this superstitious nonsense. It all rests between you and common sense.

[MeDeFe]

Every major religion throughout the world mentions Christ. The Jews as a teacher, the Muslims as a prophet of God, The Hindus as a diety, the Buddhists as a Bodhitsatva(sp?).

One word: SOURCES!

A second word: please


I'd heard that the jews recognize him as a latter day prophet and that Muhammed also called him one. But the rest was new to me.

[Kokunai]

Every major religion throughout the world mentions Christ. The Jews as a teacher, the Muslims as a prophet of God, The Hindus as a diety, the Buddhists as a Bodhitsatva(sp?).

One word: SOURCES!

A second word: please


I'd heard that the jews recognize him as a latter day prophet and that Muhammed also called him one. But the rest was new to me.

Hop on google and type in these searches you will get plenty of sources.

Buddhists recognize Christ as Bodhisattva <--correct spelling
Hindus recognize Christ as Diety or Avatar

[Kokunai]

Many have believed differently but as an argument against all belief that is weak. I am not trying to convince you I am merely putting it out there. Like, I said it is not for me to save you but Christ, if it is his will then you will know the truth if not then you won't. It all rests between you and him.

Understood. And likewise I hope that one day you can understand that this is all just fiction, that life is nought but a glorious accident and that to move forward the human race has to advance beyond this superstitious nonsense. It all rests between you and common sense.

Lol, nice wording.

However, religion has provided a foundation for civilization for many centuries and will continue to do so till then end. To think you can explain away religion is folly. I do not expect to convince, as I have said, merely to line out the truth and leave that seed with you. Unfortunately the seeds fall on different types of soil some the birds eat some flourish. Only God knows the quality of a man's soul which is why I am only a bearer of the good news. I think I have done my work the rest is in God's hands.

[Jesse, Bad Boy]

Every major religion throughout the world mentions Christ. The Jews as a teacher, the Muslims as a prophet of God, The Hindus as a diety, the Buddhists as a Bodhitsatva(sp?).

One word: SOURCES!

A second word: please


I'd heard that the jews recognize him as a latter day prophet and that Muhammed also called him one. But the rest was new to me.

Hop on google and type in these searches you will get plenty of sources.

Buddhists recognize Christ as Bodhisattva <--correct spelling
Hindus recognize Christ as Diety or Avatar

It's not debate if we do your homework for you. The onus of providing the evidence is upon you.

[Kokunai]

Every major religion throughout the world mentions Christ. The Jews as a teacher, the Muslims as a prophet of God, The Hindus as a diety, the Buddhists as a Bodhitsatva(sp?).

One word: SOURCES!

A second word: please


I'd heard that the jews recognize him as a latter day prophet and that Muhammed also called him one. But the rest was new to me.

Hop on google and type in these searches you will get plenty of sources.

Buddhists recognize Christ as Bodhisattva <--correct spelling
Hindus recognize Christ as Diety or Avatar

It's not debate if we do your homework for you. The onus of providing the evidence is upon you.

I don't care if how you think of it. You want to know search the answers out or take me at my word. Thing is I am not going to provide you sources you will not accept, so go find the sources you want to trust. If we had to go to a library to get the information I could understand but it is at your fingertips go get the information yourself.

I did my homework hence how I know it. You want to know that is on you. You do your own homework.

BTW, is that all you have to add? Cause that was useless but thanks for playing.

[Jesse, Bad Boy]

After reading most of your posts, Kokunai, I have a few questions for you that I could admittedly say I am most curious to find answers too.


My first question is how you have come to know the extent of Gods abilities, being able to dictate with precision what he can (and I imagine cannot) do.

My second question is in regards to his omnipotence. If we accept that God is omnipotent, we must also accept that god is capable of anything, which includes not being omnipotent and all seeing. It's a paradox that is quite confusing, and I would like to hear a rational solution to it. In addition to this question, I would like to ask why God was required to sacrifice his only son as a means of forgiving us for our sins. If God is omnipotent, why couldn't he have just forgiven us with the wave of his metaphorical hand?

My third question deals with the historicity and accuracy of the life of Jesus. How do you rectify that no existence of Jesus exists, in either physical or textual form, until 30 years after his supposed death? Moreover, how do you rectify the times in which the accepted Gospels were written (nearly 30 years after Yeshua ben Yosef el Nazrii was supposedly crucified!), the fact that these accounts do not match up (it must be noted that "interpretation" and "opinion" are not valid methods of recording objective history, and accepting such would be precedent to accepting all stories of fanciful origin), and the only writings that come make any mention of Yeshua el Nazrii Christos comes from Saul of Tarsus which only makes mention of the Crucifiction, Death, and Resurrection? How does this account for the added stories that the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, John, and Luke give us? Remember, interpretation, unsubstantiated anecdote, and opinion are not valid ways of recording history.

I would also ask that in conjunction of the above question you provide evidence and reason why no record of the Slaughter of the Innocents occurred, the Sermon on the Mount (which attracted hundreds, if not thousands), or why a record of his Trial and Sentencing do not exist.

[Jesse, Bad Boy]

Every major religion throughout the world mentions Christ. The Jews as a teacher, the Muslims as a prophet of God, The Hindus as a diety, the Buddhists as a Bodhitsatva(sp?).

One word: SOURCES!

A second word: please


I'd heard that the jews recognize him as a latter day prophet and that Muhammed also called him one. But the rest was new to me.

Hop on google and type in these searches you will get plenty of sources.

Buddhists recognize Christ as Bodhisattva <--correct spelling
Hindus recognize Christ as Diety or Avatar

It's not debate if we do your homework for you. The onus of providing the evidence is upon you.

I don't care if how you think of it. You want to know search the answers out or take me at my word. Thing is I am not going to provide you sources you will not accept, so go find the sources you want to trust. If we had to go to a library to get the information I could understand but it is at your fingertips go get the information yourself.

I did my homework hence how I know it. You want to know that is on you. You do your own homework.

BTW, is that all you have to add? Cause that was useless but thanks for playing.

You give us evidence, and fail to provide a source? How are you supposed to expect us to believe you?

[jay_a2j]

I'm just going to sit back and enjoy.


http://www.dontbeleftbehind.com/


Carry on....

[Backglass]

I also usually stay away from these threads, but if those mentioned above would stay away, they would be a lot better

Of course. No one wants to be told their insane...especially the insane.

To paraphrase jay..."No deluded Religio-Babble before my evening Scotch, please!"

[Jesse, Bad Boy]

I'm just going to sit back and enjoy.


http://www.dontbeleftbehind.com/


Carry on....

LOL, what a joke. I read the "Science" and "History" parts, and it's nothing but shit. Scariest thing about it is that people try to pass this off as fact.

[heavycola]

However, religion has provided a foundation for civilization for many centuries and will continue to do so till then end. To think you can explain away religion is folly.

Example:
The Mayan religion - bloodthirsty sun-worshipping. They didn't realise that the sun wasn't a whimsical god but a giant fusion reactor millions of miles away. You do know this (i hope), and would never believe in their gods. Yet it was a foundation for their civilisation. Xianity is no less bonkers, objectively speaking, and has doubtless been a foundation for western civilisation (lol @ Ghandi). Time to outgrow it now though.
Look at Jay's belief in the 'rapture'. It's saddening - nothing more than grasping at straws, as if instead of facing death and coming to terms with it you start believing that god is going to whisk you up to heaven any day now. It might provide comfort to these people, i suppose, but it's delusional and that cannot ultimately do anybody any good. Look at the fundagelical beliefs about Israel, the Palestinians and the 'end times'... nothing good can come of that nonsense. And yet religion provides all the framework these people need to further their bigotry and insane agendas.


And i think i can offer an explanation for religion. Originally it spread through group natural selection. Those tribes with a common religious purpose, that were ready and willing to work together and show courage in battle under their god, were better equipped to survive than others. Simple beginnings. The 'religious gene', for want of a better phrase, spread.

[manicman]

If God is all powerful then he should be able to forgive the sinner regardless of punishment or not. That's the nature of being all powerful.

God did have the power to forgive without the death of Jesus, but then the Bible prophecies of Jesus would not be true, making it so we could not trust Him. But God stuck with the plan to send Jesus to die for our sins, so therefore you should believe the entire Bible as the direct and true Word of God.

So god sent Jesus to fulfill his own prophecy and despite being omniscient, god made this prophecy in the first place knowing it would lead to a lot of trouble that could easily be avoided. Plus god could have taken the memory of the prophecy out of humanity's minds to get around that trouble because god is all powerful. And even besides all these logical errors on the part of god who is supposed to be without error, you still have no evidence to prove that this is true since your last point I rebutted.

[manicman]

just one question...were did the dinosaurs come from? pretty sure they wouldnt fit in the garden of eden.....

and mary was married to joseph for how long? and didnt have sex? imaculate conception.....reeeeaaaaalllyyyy...

And what happened to jesus between 15-30 cos it aint in that great "factual" book know as the bible.

Annnnd how about all those missing gosbels...as the bible is only made up of about 30 percent of what was written..

oh i could sit here and poke holes in religion all day but im sure i would either killed/bombed/slted/called the devil/told im going to hell etc etc.

but on one note i will add...how many deaths have been caused in the name of religion..(or should i say the difference in beliefs..


Cant we all just get along

(chuckles)

1. dinosaurs: were pre-garden of Eden. They had become extinct before the creation of man.

2. immaculate conception: um yes, back in those times it was common to wait till marriage to um, do the nasty.

3. Jesus 15-30: He grew up. There are a lot of things not in the Bible. Could you imagine how much bigger it would be if everything was in it?

4. Missing Gospels: There are no missing Gospels, the ones in the Bible are the ones God wanted there.

5: Poking holes: You could go on all day making ridiculous statements but you haven't yet poked a hole.

1. The bible says the garden of eden was around as soon as god was finished with creation. So unless they went extinct in 7 days I think the bible might be lying a bit.
2.This is just a case of there being no proof to back up the religious claim and thousands of years worth of science to back up the opposing claim Mary had sex about 9 months before the birth of Christ.
3.This guy is the most important person in human history and nothing worth recording happened to him for 15 years of his life? Yeah sure.
4. What about the Gospel of Judas that says that Jesus asked Judas to betray him?
5.I think I just repoked those holes you tried to seal up.

[manicman]

If God is all powerful then he should be able to forgive the sinner regardless of punishment or not. That's the nature of being all powerful.

God did have the power to forgive without the death of Jesus, but then the Bible prophecies of Jesus would not be true, making it so we could not trust Him. But God stuck with the plan to send Jesus to die for our sins, so therefore you should believe the entire Bible as the direct and true Word of God.

Caleb that is circular reasoning and your not answering the question.


The reason Christ had to die is, in order to be just God had to have an atonement for the sins, He chose blood to be that atonement. You can see this throughout the old testament as they sacrificed animals to atone but these were not permanent. Christ had to die because we needed a perfect sacrifice for the sins we committed and still commit to this day.

God is all-powerful but he is also righteous, part of being righteous is perfect justice. Without a payment for sins (or violation of the law) there would be no justice that payment is the blood of Christ. In order for the payment to fulfill God's righteous nature it had to be a perfect sacrifice, Christ was perfect in that he never sinned, he could have, but he didn't. None of us can earn our way because none of our deeds can ever make us righteous, and because of that we had to have a way provided to us.

Okay first of all most religious people tend to think that justice and what is right is decided by God so he doesn't have to change his actions to fit his standards, he can change his standards to fit his actions.
And if justice and rightness are independant even of god then howis it justice that someone who never sinned died to help out a sinful people?
Should we put babies to death as punishment for murderers and rapists? It looks like the really sinful crowd got a free pass on this one.

[DIRESTRAITS]

Now Jays posting here? well, this threads screwed. Off to the bar to drink.

[2dimes]

My second question is in regards to his omnipotence. If we accept that God is omnipotent, we must also accept that god is capable of anything, which includes not being omnipotent and all seeing. It's a paradox that is quite confusing, and I would like to hear a rational solution to it.

I don't understand the question. It certainly appears you're just trying to argue here.

Do you accept that I can reach the higher shelf by using a chair, yet I am shorter and can not reach as high if I'm sitting down instead of standing. What a parodox.

[Jesse, Bad Boy]

My second question is in regards to his omnipotence. If we accept that God is omnipotent, we must also accept that god is capable of anything, which includes not being omnipotent and all seeing. It's a paradox that is quite confusing, and I would like to hear a rational solution to it.

I don't understand the question. It certainly appears you're just trying to argue here.

Do you accept that I can reach the higher shelf by using a chair, yet I am shorter and can not reach as high if I'm sitting down instead of standing. What a parodox.

An appropriate dodge to my other questions, by strawmanning but a single question.

You seem to be unable to think beyond a linear plane of thought. If we accepted that God was omnipotent, we would accept that he is capable of anything, including non-existence. Moreover, if we accepted that God was additionally omni-benevolent, we would alternatively need to accept that God was incapable of evil, which would negate omnipotence. One of these attributes cannot rationally exist in conjunction with the other.

It's a paradox that I was wondering if Kokunai could rationally explain away, but instead I get a strawman argument from you.

[nath21]

What astounds me is that people will swallow any belief system beacuse they do not have the capacity to think for themselves.

All religion is an idea, just because that idea is old does not mean it should be believed in fact the opposite because our forfathers were basically quite inept (except for a few outstanding specimens). All religions are cults. I laugh when a main stream christian tells me another smaller religion is a cult. All religions have borrowed ideas off other religions to gain more followers. Religion is a way to control the masses and supress individual thought and action. They are not all necessarily evil or bad but there actions can cause misery on an astronimical scale.

[thelewis]

1. The bible says the garden of eden was around as soon as god was finished with creation. So unless they went extinct in 7 days I think the bible might be lying a bit.
2.This is just a case of there being no proof to back up the religious claim and thousands of years worth of science to back up the opposing claim Mary had sex about 9 months before the birth of Christ.
3.This guy is the most important person in human history and nothing worth recording happened to him for 15 years of his life? Yeah sure.
4. What about the Gospel of Judas that says that Jesus asked Judas to betray him?
5.I think I just repoked those holes you tried to seal up.

was just about to type that , theres quite a lot more missing from the bible than that as well. Its just a big book, im pretty sure in 1000 years somone will pick a copy of harry potter up and will starting praying to the little fella

[NanoSpores]

the most disheartening aspect of religion is people living for the afterlife, and using it as a personal justification for pissing all over the environment. The belief that this world is imperfect only makes it more so. Live now, that's all there is; these are the days, they always were.

[2dimes]

An appropriate dodge to my other questions, by strawmanning but a single question.

You seem to be unable to think beyond a linear plane of thought. If we accepted that God was omnipotent, we would accept that he is capable of anything, including non-existence. Moreover, if we accepted that God was additionally omni-benevolent, we would alternatively need to accept that God was incapable of evil, which would negate omnipotence. One of these attributes cannot rationally exist in conjunction with the other.

It's a paradox that I was wondering if Kokunai could rationally explain away, but instead I get a strawman argument from you.

Yes I am the one strawmanning.

Currently I am adressing the second particular question. I am not "dodging" your other question. I just don't care to play your game with that one.

What are you a 5 year old kid or do you smoke a lot of weed before asking these quantum paradox questions?

"He's so good at stuff... and capable of anything, including not existing.
Ha I got you mannn, I... got... you!!"

You really should read that one from the world outside your head. It's pretty funny.

So yeah I'm obviously not capable of anything beyond a linear plane of thought at your extreeeem high level and can't answer your totally bitchin' questions.

Jokes on me for wasting my time to answer.

[manicman]

Although some people just use big words to sound smart, his point is a good one. If god is all powerful he is capable of anything, including being evil. But a just important part of the christian doctrine is that god is incapable of evil.