Flanders 1302V15[Beta] major changes! P19

[DubWarrior]

Yes, they are.
Also the bridges are based on local, historical structures. (it's not that much, I know )
These ones where build in Kortrijk, at the end of the 1300's.



I quickly changed the borders, but to be honest, I don't like it this way:
I got the impression the text becomes illegible now (for example Axel, of Groeninge)...I think i'll keep the borders white, or at least, some sort of pale. But maybe I give them some more weight?

this is the small size:

[whitestazn88]

well i like the borders now a lot more... the text can be moved around relatively easily at this point, and you have a lot of blank space in some of the territs, so you should be fine, and could fudge up some historical borders if only for space's sake.

one thing i'd like to have you look at is the placement of the capitals, they need to be moved into the territory a little better.

examples are in gent, the name needs to be moved down, brugge, the capital should be in the territ, not in damme, kortrijk, and doornik

[eigenvector]

I must be stupid but I still don't get those capital icons. To me they look like mutant cogwheels.

Some fixes for the story on the shield: it should be "independence", "French", "Flemish".

Keep up the good work!

[TaCktiX]

Um...wow? This is a positively enormous improvement from Version 1 to Version 2. Bravo sir, bravo. Keep the good work up based on the feedback you get (which should increase over time, no worries).

Graphics
- The textures technically work, though I don't think the picked grunge texture fits best with the parchment look you're aiming for. Fiddle around with textures to get a paper-looking texture, even a dirty one.
- The parchment border clashes with the rest of the map in places, particularly the middle right and top right. Try to work in the paper more with the rest of the map. Oaktown just finished a paper-like map (Indian Empire), ask him for some tips.
- The capitals look like circus tents. While a 3D symbol is nice, I think the original ivy leaf (or whatever plant that was, not a botanist ) looked better. Perhaps fiddle with the look of the ivy leaf symbol so it changes with continent, or is slightly raised above the map, or what-have-you.
- The assumed borders on the impassables I don't think works with the map, mostly because the impassable outline color differs from the border color. I would suggest changing the border color to match the impassable outline. Try doing a small sample and seeing if that fits better, as right now I have to remind myself that the impassables terminate a country border as well as the normal border lines.
- The bridges work with the map quite well, the different bridge seems out of place. It may be more special in history, but gameplay-wise it seems to note a special element that doesn't exist (i.e., source of confusion).

Gameplay
- The legend is a confusing mess. It would do much better to move the title over (on top of the outline picture on the sea, which adds to flavor quite nicely), and enlarge the minimap to the point that you can stick region names on it, as well as the bonus if at all possible. If not that, try re-adding regions to the map proper. I think that worked, but the way the text was made it hard to read.
- Is it a +1 bonus for a capital or a +1 autodeploy? I would suggest the latter, or have neutral start capitals due to the number of them.
- Continuity-wise, you have different signatures in the small and large. I prefer the large version's signature.

I promised, and I delivered. You got
.

[mattosaurus]

May try making it a more medieval looking map if you want it to be historical from that period. Here's and example. Its kind of messy, but you can get the idea.

The goal of a map is to be unique, have interesting gameplay and be simple enough to be easy to play without being confusing. On a map this light, army circles aren't necessary. They can take up more space then they're worth.

[hecter]

I also really like the new borders. As it was stated, text is easily manipulated.

[oaktown]

Fantastic looking map for version 2, Dub. I concur with most of tack's concerns, above... especially the legend. In general the look is good, but turn your eye to the mechanics of the map - size of the text (too small on the small map) borders (easier to read now but I agree they don't look as nice) and the legend.

Also, I always appreciate it when a mapmaker makes his/her map only as big as it needs to me. The region you're covering is a fantastic shape for a horizontal CC map that allows everybody to see the entire map and all of the menus and BOB info on one screen, yet you're still close to the max size. I think the map might look tighter and be more practical if you lopped 40 pixels or so off the top of the map and adjusted you legend, title, and picture accordingly.

Keep up the nice work.

[captainwalrus]

Some cities are a little unclear. Like where is Kortrijk? It appears to be on the little island but the way the name and symbol are placed it is slightly off, making it unclear what it boarders. Can it attack Orchies? Making the symbol a little smaller and the river go further around the symbol would clear that up. Is a bridge necessary between Axel and Hulst? It looks like the river doesn't go althe way in, and it doesn't cut anything else off, so the river seems pointless. Sorry if my feedback is unclear.

[oaktown]

Hi Dub,

In case folks aren't aware this map has been chosen to be a subject in our first Map Incubator, so hopefully you'll be seeing the same few faces pop in here weekly. As I see there hasn't been much movement since my last visit I'll just say keep up the excellent work!

[lancehoch]

I am part of that incubator team, so I thought I would give a few comments. Brugge looks like it is actually located in Damme, could you do something a little more like Gent, where the castle is located within the territory even if the name is not? If you are going to have army circles, I think the capitals look better, with the single pixel outline. The name Sint-Armands is a little hard to read, maybe swap the circle and the name or try wrapping the text and split the name at the hyphen.

[thenobodies80]

Click image to enlarge.

Image for the new page

Your new draft is good.
In addition to sharing concerns already pointed out up to now, two additional things:
This is your map with Vischeck (simulate colorblind):

Click image to enlarge.

Vier Ambachten/Brabant isn't so clear
Maybe some corrections on rivers, like in the quick example i did:

show: rivers

[mibi]

This map is hot, keep up the good work.

[DubWarrior]

Hi all,
Back with a Fifth draft.
Most of the changes i've done, is based on your comments.
Here's a quick list of some changes:

-placement of the capitals is now in it's territory
-spellings errors "independence", "French", "Flemish" are fixed.
- soften a bit the grungy background texture
- "capitals look like circus tents"...replaced by a small tower-symbol.
- changed the color of the impassable outline and it's filling.
- one type of bridge, and scaled them a bit.
- enlarged the minimap
- made a horizontal map of it
- the rivers go around the capitals now
- clearing up some river's, coast and bridges (like the one in axel/hulst)
- added a medieval looking border
-added a small drawing for the signature
- changed the position of the title and background information
-changed most colors, and checked it with Vischeck
-changed some borders, so that it becomes clearer which territories are adjacent.

I posted the small size on page one.

DubWarrior

[lancehoch]

Could you make the name Doornik a little darker? The other capitals seem to pop out a little more than that one. Great update though.

[DubWarrior]

Some more feedback would be appreciated
I've been waiting some time, but nobody is reacting... Anyhow, i've got some time now to make some changes, so shoot your comments plz!

Grtz
DubWarrior

[Bruceswar]

Here is my suggestion for you. I know you have been working hard on this map, but if you made the colors a bit richer without being overbearing it would look really good. You are on your way to a nice looking map. Good luck!

[RedBaron0]

Quite a good looking map here! Graphically, I think you need to add a bit of a glow behind your text. In most cases the names of the territories seem to be blending into the territory itself, and in a couple cases, like Antwerpen, the name crosses a border and part of the name is lost in the border. A glow or white shadow effect will have the text pop out.
I think you also need to make the color of the water a more distinctive color(a darker blue, or blue-green) The rivers towards the bottom of the map could be misconstrued as a regular border. Also the ocean color is almost identical to the color of Vier Ambachten bonus.
I know you increased the size of the mini-map, but it gets in the way of the Oostburg-Broeklburg connection. Try and keep it as big as possible, but you may have to shrink it down a smidge to get out of the path of the line.(mostly)

Gameplay wise, your bonus values seem a little low in some places, but not terribly so, and since this is a smaller map, you don't want to get too high, especially with the capital bonuses. It just seems to me that there are a lot of connections between bonus regions, especially in the small central regions of the map. For example: Rijks Vlaaneren is a +1 bonus where all 3 territories are borders into 5 territories in 4 different bonuses. It wouldn't be worth holding it to get just 1 extra army, even with the extra +1 for Aalst.
Why is Kortrijk completely cut off from the rest of its bonus? A bridge connecting it to one of the other territories in the bonus should be added.

Explain capitals to me some. From what I see, there are 3 capitals in one bonus region, and no capitals in 3 other bonuses. Are these more like areas of major uprising, or rebel strongholds? Maybe just a change in terminology will prevent any confusion, and if you do an auto-deploy as was already suggested it will add nicely to the theme, since you basically have inflamed peasants swelling the ranks of the Flemish armies in those regions.

Hope this helps, keep working at it, the map is quite good!

[DubWarrior]

Back again


Things I changed:
-The color of Doornik, and its regions.
- made the colors brighter, more saturated
- changed the color of the sea
- changed the bonus for rijks-vlaanderen
- changed the bridge of kortrijk, so it is connected to its region
- changed the bridge between rijsel and ieper
- changed the color of the rivers (and I don't like it...my opinion...some others ideas?)
- replaced Capitals for Rebel Strongholds
- put some glow behind the citynames
- changed the searoutes (and kept the mini-map)

Thanks for your comments all, so far...Hope there's still interest in the map and its progress out there!
Grtz

Dub

[captainwalrus]

Everything is much more clear now, well done.

[whitestazn88]

great work. i don't particularly like that the story is smaller now... but i can live with it

[DubWarrior]

Hi,
2 questions:
- Do you like the new color of the rivers? I'm having a bit the impression they're looking to 'new'...not medieval enough?
- a topic question: what do i need to do, so this topic gets in the main foundry-forum - out of this 'new projects' forum - this one don't feels like a new project
But maybe I'm getting a bit impatient

grtz
Dub

[RedBaron0]

I know how you feel my friend..

Play with the colors, you are the map maker after all. I just thought the old river color was very similar to the main boundary color. Try that blue-green you used for the ocean, I like that color.

Couple little things to look at, you can almost see a connection between Damme and Poperinge. Slide that border of Ieper over a little bit to the river, unless you want a connection between those 2 territories. The border between Eeklo and Roesclare is smidgen short, just need to finish the line to the river. And consider increasing the bonus of Artesie OR Kortrijk. They just seem very difficult to hold, even if they only have 4 and 5 territories respectively.

Looking really good Dub!

[The Neon Peon]

To answer your questions:
- Make them the same color as the sea.
- To get the topic into the main foundry, you have to have a good map, which you already do, and have some discussion go on, to show the cartographers that people are interested in seeing this map be a part of the site.

Graphics comments:
- IEPER seems to be smaller, or less bolded than the other rebel stronghold names.
- Tone down territory borders they stand out far too much, make them a little transparent
- Move the rebel stronghold in KORTRIJK right, closer to the bridge so that it is not touching the top of the territory border
- Tidy up the rivers by GENT and BRUGGE
- Add one more dash next to Oostburg in its connection to Broekburg

The map looks wonderful. I love your style.

Gameplay:
- RIJKS Vlaanderen is worth 2 troops yet it is only 3 territories with only 2 of them to defend, it should be brought down to 1 troop
- Henegouwen and Oostervant together are 7 territories, 3 to defend, and are worth 5 troops. One of the two bonuses needs to be reduced
- Kortrijk needs to be worth 3 troops. Because of its central location, it is difficult to obtain and hold, so making it worth more makes it worthwhile to go get
- Consider extending Duinkerke east so that it borders a Broekburg and Sint Omaars, and Vinoxbergen does not borer Broekburg

That is all the comments I have for now. Will drop in sometime later. Keep up the good work.

[whitestazn88]

yo, i've been posting here for a bit. back again for the preliminary review. looks good. you've updated things to get people to like it more, and its been improved vastly, i say move it on, and good luck getting forged

[dolomite13]

I really like this map. The colors look really good next to each other. I agree wih everything Neon Peon said. I did also notice the dark border you have left side of the map is slightly right of the map edge and the right side one is slightly off the edge of the map. But thats just a nit pick.

Great Job

==D