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The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

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The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

Postby pimpdave on Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:39 pm

Is that it seriously negatively impacts morale.

Instead of this execution/Robespierre model that has clearly been put in place by a previous administration, a clearer, more community building approach ought to be adopted. If mods must think of themselves as jailors, don't think of a penal system with a death row and escalating punishments leading to a 'final solution', think instead of the Nazis in The Great Escape.

You can't execute Virgil Hilts, but you sure can put him in the cooler for a week. He can do the time, and sometimes it's worth it. They don't call him the cooler king for nothing, ya heard?

There are others, like Archibald Ives, the mole, who just wanted to commit suicide. I mean, in that case, you have to shoot, but a guy like Virgil Hilts... well, he's just always going to have to push the limits. It's in his nature. It's his duty, and you can't expect an officer not to do his duty.

However, a fellow like Hilts (or a Roger Bartlett) is a necessary component to a healthy system. It encourages esprit de corps among both the jailors and the way-more awesome people who aren't (or, to equate this analogy to this silly online community, the mods and the way-more awesome people who aren't) simply by the constant conflict intrinsic to the relationship.

Anyone who likes a good story knows that every story involves conflict. For a story to even be a story, there must be conflict. To silence those that know how to safely create the necessary conflict for a healthy and vibrant environment kills the entire community. It irrepairably damages morale. It cuts off the nose to spite the face while allowing a select few to get drunk with power and banhammers. There are some antagonists that must be removed who genuinely have attempted to damage the site or the lives of members of the community. They legitimately had to be removed. We don't have to name them here, but Dancing Mustard was absolutely not one of them. Some people might throw themselves on their swords, like Ives, and just wanted to go down in a storm of bullets (like maybe bk barunt was recently, or a better example might be DaGip)

Dancing Mustard (Virgil Hilts) understood the rules of engagement, such as they are, in terms of doing no real harm while still having a good time. He left the white gloves on, if you know what I mean. I can't see how he doesn't just deserve more time in the cooler.

But regardless of DM, since his sacrifice may not be redeemed by the mods, we should pay attention to what this means for the rest of us. This means there is no recourse. There is no appeal. There is no hope. You will inevitably run afoul of the powers that be, regardless of who they are. They don't care AT ALL about any of us. What they care about is completely unclear, but they don't care about us, or else they wouldn't execute people that contribute so much.

This makes it very hard to fork over more money. Yeah, yeah, I've only paid for premium once, and it was at the 20 dollar rate. But it's really difficult to want to pay out more money for a site that I can't be sure will be consistent. If Dancing Mustard is going to leave the board, it should be on his own terms, that is, if I'm going to pay to support this site.

I keep hoping this site will turn around and there will be some kind of culture of acceptance and assurance that we are all apart of something larger than ourselves, rather than some system that will mercilessly squash me if I happen to annoy (especially if by accident) a bullying mod.

I for one think DM should be, at maximum, issued a one week ban for his recent "infractions" (spurious though they are), so the mods can save face by levying a long sentence, and we don't have to feel as if a blow has been dealt to us all. The same should hold true for all of us. Some of us now might be holding our breath wondering when the notice of a permaban is coming. That sword of Damocles malarkey simply isn't acceptable if one values morale in the slightest.

Please mods, go watch The Great Escape (well, the first 2/3 anyway). When you lock us up, put us in the cooler, not in front of a firing squad, huh?

The Great Escape. Part One of Sixteen

Just watch the movie you dummies. It's free and legal.

Mods, take notes. You're supposed to be cool guards.


the other 15 parts
Last edited by pimpdave on Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

Postby Night Strike on Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:52 pm

Community Guidelines:
Minor Infractions follow the traditional vacation escalation scale of: Warning, 24 Hour Vacation, 72 Hour Vacation, One Week or One Month Vacation, Permanent Vacation.


DM's list of bans:
    1 day
    2 day (may have been a release oversight that caused it to be 2 days rather than 1)
    3 days
    3 days
    1 week
    1 month
    1 day
    permanent

Looks to me like the Community Guidelines were followed quite well. If DM hadn't been given a permanent vacation, then the guidelines would not have been followed and there would be legitimate grounds for complaints.
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Re: The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

Postby Rocketry on Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:58 pm

I think you missed the point, Night Stripe, pimpdave was questioning the guidelines themselves.

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Re: The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

Postby Caymanmew on Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:59 pm

Night Strike wrote:Community Guidelines:
Minor Infractions follow the traditional vacation escalation scale of: Warning, 24 Hour Vacation, 72 Hour Vacation, One Week or One Month Vacation, Permanent Vacation.


DM's list of bans:
    1 day
    2 day (may have been a release oversight that caused it to be 2 days rather than 1)
    3 days
    3 days
    1 week
    1 month
    1 day
    permanent

Looks to me like the Community Guidelines were followed quite well. If DM hadn't been given a permanent vacation, then the guidelines would not have been followed and there would be legitimate grounds for complaints.


so what he get each of those bans for?
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Re: The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

Postby pimpdave on Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:00 pm

And the Permanent Ban is fundamentally contradictory to any premise of fostering, supporting, or encouraging "community". You guys have been willing to reconsider the "guidelines" before, and now is certainly another time.

It should be used on only the worst of the worst. Only certain things should result in a permanent ban, like: pornography, personal information, or viruses/malicious software.

Otherwise, an escalating system means anyone could get banned permanently if a vindictive and bullying mod happens to have a hard on for someone in particular.
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Re: The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

Postby pimpdave on Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:19 pm

Rocketry wrote:I think you missed the point, Night Stripe, pimpdave was questioning the guidelines themselves.

Rocket.



And this is part of what's so scary... is that mods that misinterpret things regularly, or don't wait for clarification before making a snap judgment are able to cut us off PERMANENTLY from an integral part of the site.

Night Strike's post in this thread (as a genuine response to my OP) better exposes just how messed up the system is here than anything I could really say. I mean, wow.
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Re: The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:24 pm

pimpdave wrote:
Rocketry wrote:I think you missed the point, Night Stripe, pimpdave was questioning the guidelines themselves.

Rocket.



And this is part of what's so scary... is that mods that misinterpret things regularly, or don't wait for clarification before making a snap judgment are able to cut us off PERMANENTLY from an integral part of the site.

Night Strike's post in this thread (as a genuine response to my OP) better exposes just how messed up the system is here than anything I could really say. I mean, wow.


I would also refer you to owenator's post in callouts (which will likely be moved here).
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Re: The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

Postby jonesthecurl on Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:30 pm

Not sure about the "Great Escape" metaphor, never managed to stay awake through it.

But Dave is right:

when the definition of a naughty-enough infraction is up to the mods, and repeated infractions lead to a permaban for good-humoured joshing, there's something wrong with the rules.

Question 1 should be: Are we having a good time?
Question 2 should be: is it really possible for a reasonable person to be seriously offended by what's going on here?
Question 3 should be: is "suck it up cupcake" a reasonable response to complaints about a poster's current conduct?
Question 4 should be: if the answers to the above are no, yes, no, should the culprit be punished? or thrown out?

In the threads quoted for throwing DM out, the answers would surely be
1: yes
2: No
3: yes
4: doesn't apply, but if it did, throwing him out is a ludicrous response.
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Re: The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

Postby hwhrhett on Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:32 pm

pimpdave wrote:And the Permanent Ban is fundamentally contradictory to any premise of fostering, supporting, or encouraging "community". You guys have been willing to reconsider the "guidelines" before, and now is certainly another time.

It should be used on only the worst of the worst. Only certain things should result in a permanent ban, like: pornography, personal information, or viruses/malicious software.

Otherwise, an escalating system means anyone could get banned permanently if a vindictive and bullying mod happens to have a hard on for someone in particular.


an escalating system doesnt mean that anyone could get banned permanently, those that follow the rules need not fear anything..

perma-bans ONLY effect those that repeatedly break the rules. and which rules they break are irrelevant as far as im concerned. if they allowed people to break the rules over and over again, i think it would hurt the community more.

dont get the community as a whole, mixed up with a small amount of repeat offenders.. most people never break the rules.. ive been here for 3 years, and have been an active forum goer and player and have never once had a problem with not breaking the rules, its surprisingly easy...
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Re: The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

Postby StiffMittens on Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:33 pm

The escalating ban scheme in the current form of the guidelines is somewhat like saying after the 6th or 7th parking ticket the police have the right to saw off your hands and poke out your eyes.
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Re: The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

Postby jonesthecurl on Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:36 pm

I've never been warned nor banned either.
If I were in charge, i'd probably have had words with DM about his conduct.
That doesn't change my point or invalidate Dave's.
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Re: The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

Postby pimpdave on Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:54 pm

hwhrhett wrote:dont get the community as a whole, mixed up with a small amount of repeat offenders.. most people never break the rules.. ive been here for 3 years, and have been an active forum goer and player and have never once had a problem with not breaking the rules, its surprisingly easy...


And yet I bet you never found yourself getting into a political debate with a mod, thinking they could separate things that differ, only to find out that because you were successful in the debate that they decided to avenge their loss by looking for a reason to ban you.

It's happened to me, so I know it's happened to others. And if your solution to that is to not engage mods in a political or religious debate, then you should probably go jump in a lake because you're being silly.

Plus, part of the problem is that once you get in trouble once, they keep looking for reasons to ban you after that. So if you've never been banned, they'll dismiss most everything they'll flip out over with those of us that have been unjustly banned by certain vindictive and bullying neo-con mods *ahem*.

Or, even worse, those disgraced mods that I won't name here, but were REMOVED FROM THE SITE FOR ABUSING THEIR POSITION.

Those bannings aren't re-evaluated in a spirit of fairness to the member of the community. Oh no...
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Re: The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

Postby TheProwler on Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:59 pm

Sorry if this is a repeat. I'm pressed for time. But here is an example that can be used as an analogy:

A person shoplifts and is found guilty. He is sentenced to 20 hours of community service.

He shoplifts again 6 months later and is found guilty. He is sentenced to 2 weeks in jail.

He shoplifts again 3 months later and is found guilty. He is sentenced to 1 month in jail.

He steals a car 2 months later and is found guilty. He is sentenced to 1 year in jail.

He shoplifts again 6 months later and is found guilty. He is sentenced to 2 months in jail.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

But there is no way this annoying prick is going to ever be executed or thrown into jail for more than a few months for shoplifting. He might get another year for stealing a car. But never, ever, life.

This time, DM only shoplifted. A fuckin' pack of chewing gum. 24 hours of community service. Max.


I agree with the concept of a permanent ban. But it would have to be applied only in extreme cases. The permabanning of DM was a poor decision.
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Re: The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:01 pm

There are two potential problems. One can be for changing the rules or changing the application or both or neither.

(1) The rules themselves.

I don't agree with any rules limiting free expression on this or any other website. However, I attempt to abide by those rules. I'll petition for them to be changed, but it doesn't really affect me. I'm a fairly regular contributor and have not been punished (not that I need to be).

(2) The unfair application of the rules.

It has become apparent to me that the rules are not being applied on a uniform basis. I don't think it's based on politics (though others apparently do). I'm not sure what it's based on though. There are some who regularly use foul language, who regularly troll, who regularly post spam, and who are not disciplined or reprimanded in any way. Further, there are those who are reprimanded or punished, and who do it again, but are not given escalating punishments. On the other hand, for others, the rules are applied uniformly. This presents an issue of whether or not the moderators are picking and choosing who they punish.
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Re: The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

Postby jpcloet on Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:18 pm

StiffMittens wrote:The escalating ban scheme in the current form of the guidelines is somewhat like saying after the 6th or 7th parking ticket the police have the right to saw off your hands and poke out your eyes.


That seems a little harsh. If you continue to steal from Wal-Mart, will they not ban you from their store? Or how about continually getting drunk and jumping on the safety mesh at a ball game? That will get you a ban too.

My personal view is that there is likely a middle ground and as a group, you can always make positive changes if you do it in a positive way. I'm not a big fan of permas and though I have given a few forum holidays, I've generally been reluctant to do so. We are still talking about the problem too generally. If the forum goers are willing to work with me, I'd certainly be open working with you to come up with a recommendation or 2. What say you forumites?
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Re: The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

Postby pimpdave on Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:23 pm

Well then what about completely unreasonable and WRONG bans?

Remember when I was banned by that recently removed and appropriately disgraced partisan mod Night Strike? He banned me because I posted a video about the evils of pornography that I had no idea linked to some other videos that may have discussed the human anatomy.

I had NO IDEA that YouTube would link to those videos, because I saw the video as embedded in another site, and thus didn't see any "related videos" off to the side. Besides which, I never, EVER would have thought that'd be a problem, especially when YouTube required all users to verify being over 18 years old to see the innocuous video first.

However, according to Night Strike, that was enough to issue a 24 hour ban. Whatever, not a big deal, right? However, that goes into the "pot" for this escalating banning method.

So, because Night Strike doesn't like me and wants to get rid of me, he bans me for it, instead of sending me a PM saying, "hey, you realize there was some inappropriate material in that post, right?" and I can reply with, "oh no! I had no idea." (I really, honestly did not), we can take it down, and the problem is solved. ESPECIALLY SINCE THE VIDEO I POSTED WAS NOT INAPPROPRIATE AT ALL, only the links to the side which are RANDOMLY GENERATED AND I CANNOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR EVEN THOUGH I'M WILLING TO WORK WITH THE MODS AND TAKE THAT STUFF DOWN IF THEY JUST ASK.

Instead, the vindictive power drunk mod bans me. This kind of malarkey goes on on a daily basis, and even when a mod like Night Strike is removed from his position for continually abusing his power and behaving like a petty partisan, the bans he unjustly levied STILL STAND.

With this in mind, an escalating system is COMPLETELY FLAWED and results in ultimate injustice.

You mods should be users for awhile, and have to get banned the way we are, for STUPID STUFF and have NO RECOURSE, NO FORGIVENESS, NO MERCY.
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Re: The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

Postby hwhrhett on Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:28 pm

pimpdave wrote:
hwhrhett wrote:dont get the community as a whole, mixed up with a small amount of repeat offenders.. most people never break the rules.. ive been here for 3 years, and have been an active forum goer and player and have never once had a problem with not breaking the rules, its surprisingly easy...


And yet I bet you never found yourself getting into a political debate with a mod, thinking they could separate things that differ, only to find out that because you were successful in the debate that they decided to avenge their loss by looking for a reason to ban you.

It's happened to me, so I know it's happened to others. And if your solution to that is to not engage mods in a political or religious debate, then you should probably go jump in a lake because you're being silly.

Plus, part of the problem is that once you get in trouble once, they keep looking for reasons to ban you after that. So if you've never been banned, they'll dismiss most everything they'll flip out over with those of us that have been unjustly banned by certain vindictive and bullying neo-con mods *ahem*.

Or, even worse, those disgraced mods that I won't name here, but were REMOVED FROM THE SITE FOR ABUSING THEIR POSITION.

Those bannings aren't re-evaluated in a spirit of fairness to the member of the community. Oh no...



ive gotten into very heated arguements with many different mods over clan rights actually.. and ive never had a problem with them attempting to exact revenge... or being vindictive....


StiffMittens wrote:The escalating ban scheme in the current form of the guidelines is somewhat like saying after the 6th or 7th parking ticket the police have the right to saw off your hands and poke out your eyes.


so your saying that we should fine them instead?
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Re: The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

Postby jpcloet on Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:29 pm

pimpdave wrote:Well then what about completely unreasonable and WRONG bans?


That's not something I think I would look at right away, but sounds like a reasonable future agenda item.

pimpdave wrote:You mods should be users for awhile, and have to get banned the way we are, for STUPID STUFF and have NO RECOURSE, NO FORGIVENESS, NO MERCY.


All mods are users. I do have a warning on my record as well. 8-)

You didn't answer my question pimpdave, would you be willing to work with me specifically to come up with a recommendation or 2?
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Re: The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

Postby pimpdave on Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:30 pm

hwhrhett wrote:ive gotten into very heated arguements with many different mods over clan rights actually.. and ive never had a problem with them attempting to exact revenge... or being vindictive....


And so, despite all of the testimony saying that it does go on, since it hasn't happened to you, you completely disallow for the possibility that it does?

Come on...
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Re: The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

Postby jpcloet on Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:31 pm

hwhrhett wrote:ive gotten into very heated arguements with many different mods over clan rights actually.. and ive never had a problem with them attempting to exact revenge... or being vindictive....


You play bad cop and I'll play good cop for clans.
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Re: The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

Postby pimpdave on Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:34 pm

jpcloet wrote:
pimpdave wrote:You mods should be users for awhile, and have to get banned the way we are, for STUPID STUFF and have NO RECOURSE, NO FORGIVENESS, NO MERCY.


All mods are users. I do have a warning on my record as well. 8-)

You didn't answer my question pimpdave, would you be willing to work with me specifically to come up with a recommendation or 2?


Sure, but which question?
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Re: The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

Postby StiffMittens on Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:11 pm

jpcloet wrote:
StiffMittens wrote:The escalating ban scheme in the current form of the guidelines is somewhat like saying after the 6th or 7th parking ticket the police have the right to saw off your hands and poke out your eyes.


That seems a little harsh. If you continue to steal from Wal-Mart, will they not ban you from their store? Or how about continually getting drunk and jumping on the safety mesh at a ball game? That will get you a ban too.

My personal view is that there is likely a middle ground and as a group, you can always make positive changes if you do it in a positive way. I'm not a big fan of permas and though I have given a few forum holidays, I've generally been reluctant to do so. We are still talking about the problem too generally. If the forum goers are willing to work with me, I'd certainly be open working with you to come up with a recommendation or 2. What say you forumites?

Well, I admit that I was exaggerating in order to more clearly illustrate the point. But I don't think that the examples you cited are directly analogous to this instance either. Stealing from Wal-mart is doing actual damage to their business and is also a crime, and drunkenly climbing the safety mesh at the ballgame is creating a potential safety hazard. A more apt comparison would be going into Wal-mart often and complaining about the prices even though you are making purchases at that Wal-mart. Or going to the ballgame and making fun of the players on the field whenever they make an error. In either you case you wouldn't automatically expect to receive a ban, but there is a threshold at some point where that behavior could become genuinely disruptive and damaging to the environment as a whole. I don't think this recent incident with Dancing Mustard really reached that threshold.

As for recommendations...

Well the first thing I would say (which is reiterating what others have said in this thread) is that a perma ban should be used only in the most extreme cases. For instance someone actively trying to cause real damage to the site/business (e.g someone who posts such offensive material that it drives away business, or spam that is designed to lure customers to another site), or engaging in clearly illegal activity (e.g. cyber-stalking/bullying, or using the forum as a venue to exchange pirated software, or kiddie porn). But all this is ostensibly already in the guidelines, perhaps they just need to be more carefully defined and more scrupulously adhered to.

The second thing I would say is that it might be good to have an appeal mechanism where someone who got perma-banned could attempt to lobby for a forum reinstatement. The community as whole could actually take part in this process perhaps a thread in the Cheat and Abuses forum opened for a specific period of time. Users could state their opinions both for and against reinstatement of the banned user. A poll could be included. This might help the mods to consider an individual case more thoroughly with respect to the individual user's impact on the community as a whole (and also provide a kind of face-saving mechanism for the moderators if a ban was imposed hastily or in a less than circumspect manner).
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Re: The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

Postby pimpdave on Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:45 pm

I don't know about a poll, because that can lead to a popularity contest, or who can make the most multis at public libraries to up the vote...

I just think that permanent bans should NEVER be part of an escalating ban system, but rather simply a weapon of absolute last resort.

If anyone is posting full names and addresses of users or phone numbers, permaban them immediately. If someone posts obvious pornography or repeatedly posts links with viruses, permaban them. Most of the community won't mind, and you'll know, because we won't be starting big threads in GD questioning the validity of the system as a whole.

Also, completely destroy and rebuild this paradigm of mods saving face. Just suck it up, cupcakes. You're not perfect (just like us), and you make mistakes (just like us), and we'll respect you more if you say, "whoops, my bad".

And you know the biggest reason WHY we'll respect you more? Because it will signal that we'll be given the chance, regularly, to say, "whoops, my bad".

Otherwise, there's no hope, and we'll have to continue to suffer the consequences of YOUR HYPOCRISY.
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Re: The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

Postby Night Strike on Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:49 pm

StiffMittens wrote:The escalating ban scheme in the current form of the guidelines is somewhat like saying after the 6th or 7th parking ticket the police have the right to saw off your hands and poke out your eyes.


Umm......no. It's if you continually break the rules of the forum, you get removed from the forum. If you continually park illegally, you lose your license. Both are privileges, and both are adequate punishments.

jonesthecurl wrote:I've never been warned nor banned either.
If I were in charge, i'd probably have had words with DM about his conduct.
That doesn't change my point or invalidate Dave's.


DM received words at every warning or vacation. Same goes for everybody else who has ever been warned or given a vacation. They know what post/comment got them the warning or vacation, it's just whether they agree with it crossing the lines or not. But words are always given.

pimpdave wrote:Remember when I was banned by that recently removed and appropriately disgraced partisan mod Night Strike? He banned me because I posted a video about the evils of pornography that I had no idea linked to some other videos that may have discussed the human anatomy.

So, because Night Strike doesn't like me and wants to get rid of me, he bans me for it, instead of sending me a PM saying, "hey, you realize there was some inappropriate material in that post, right?" and I can reply with, "oh no! I had no idea." (I really, honestly did not), we can take it down, and the problem is solved. ESPECIALLY SINCE THE VIDEO I POSTED WAS NOT INAPPROPRIATE AT ALL, only the links to the side which are RANDOMLY GENERATED AND I CANNOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR EVEN THOUGH I'M WILLING TO WORK WITH THE MODS AND TAKE THAT STUFF DOWN IF THEY JUST ASK.


I had a second opinion on that case. I believe it was Twill. I did not make that determination on my own, even though it was within my discretion as a global moderator to give out a 24 hour vacation without a second opinion. (72 hour vacations have to have consultation.) Only admins can give vacations that last over 72 hours, so you don't have to worry about any "vindictive mods" choosing to move you up the ladder. Let's be very clear about something: I can justify every vacation I ever gave and have never been warned by an admin that a warning or vacation I handed out was over the top or excessive.

pimpdave wrote:Remember when I was banned by that recently removed and appropriately disgraced partisan mod Night Strike?
Instead, the vindictive power drunk mod bans me. This kind of malarkey goes on on a daily basis, and even when a mod like Night Strike is removed from his position for continually abusing his power and behaving like a petty partisan, the bans he unjustly levied STILL STAND.


I've been removed and disgraced?? This is news to me. In fact, I believe I am still a member of Team CC. As pointed out above, I have never abused my powers, and you have provided no evidence to the contrary. Optimus Prime was making some changes with the structure of Team CC, and it was my choice to stay as Head Tournament Director and step down as Global Moderator. If I had abused that position, I would not have been given a choice, and probably would no longer be a Team member.
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Re: The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

Postby Kotaro on Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:52 pm

You know what's truly Fundamentally wrong with Permanent bans? That there's not 50 or so more of them for the assholish people that troll and spam these forums.
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