The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

[StiffMittens]

Umm......no. It's if you continually break the rules of the forum, you get removed from the forum. If you continually park illegally, you lose your license. Both are privileges, and both are adequate punishments.

I don't know where you live, but damn your parking enforcement officers are strict! Round these parts if you continue to park illegally you continue to get parking tickets.

[pimpdave]

Whatever spin you want to put on it, Nighty, you're not in a position to abuse your power either at Twill's behest or while blaming him for it, and I couldn't be happier. At least clapper makes an effort to not be a vindictive partisan.

Also, no reasonable person has been able to provide me with a reason why that ban should count towards my "permanent record". So, please ditch this escalating permanent record system malarkey, or else let us start banning you for spurious reasons, so you can know what it's like.

Especially when you meant no harm and the banning was just adding injury to insult.

[pimpdave]

That there's not 50 or so more of them for the assholish people that troll and spam these forums.

Says the guy trolling...


ps. thanks for being the first in this thread to use salty language Kotaro. I was worried I'd be the first to use naughty language, but I feel as if a great weight has been lifted from my shoulders.

[hwhrhett]

ive gotten into very heated arguements with many different mods over clan rights actually.. and ive never had a problem with them attempting to exact revenge... or being vindictive....

And so, despite all of the testimony saying that it does go on, since it hasn't happened to you, you completely disallow for the possibility that it does?

Come on...

frankly, if it were up to me, people would get 2 warnings, then banned. i think the mods are often too lenient if anything.

the only people that complain that they are too strict are people that make a habit of breaking the rules..

You play bad cop and I'll play good cop for clans.

deal.

[StiffMittens]

I had a second opinion on that case. I believe it was Twill. I did not make that determination on my own, even though it was within my discretion as a global moderator to give out a 24 hour vacation without a second opinion. (72 hour vacations have to have consultation.) Only admins can give vacations that last over 72 hours, so you don't have to worry about any "vindictive mods" choosing to move you up the ladder. Let's be very clear about something: I can justify every vacation I ever gave and have never been warned by an admin that a warning or vacation I handed out was over the top or excessive.

That just indicates that the problem is more systemic rather than centered around just one staff member (or a few staff members).

[F1fth]

The escalating ban scheme in the current form of the guidelines is somewhat like saying after the 6th or 7th parking ticket the police have the right to saw off your hands and poke out your eyes.

That seems a little harsh. If you continue to steal from Wal-Mart, will they not ban you from their store? Or how about continually getting drunk and jumping on the safety mesh at a ball game? That will get you a ban too.

My personal view is that there is likely a middle ground and as a group, you can always make positive changes if you do it in a positive way. I'm not a big fan of permas and though I have given a few forum holidays, I've generally been reluctant to do so. We are still talking about the problem too generally. If the forum goers are willing to work with me, I'd certainly be open working with you to come up with a recommendation or 2. What say you forumites?

Well, I admit that I was exaggerating in order to more clearly illustrate the point. But I don't think that the examples you cited are directly analogous to this instance either. Stealing from Wal-mart is doing actual damage to their business and is also a crime, and drunkenly climbing the safety mesh at the ballgame is creating a potential safety hazard. A more apt comparison would be going into Wal-mart often and complaining about the prices even though you are making purchases at that Wal-mart. Or going to the ballgame and making fun of the players on the field whenever they make an error. In either you case you wouldn't automatically expect to receive a ban, but there is a threshold at some point where that behavior could become genuinely disruptive and damaging to the environment as a whole. I don't think this recent incident with Dancing Mustard really reached that threshold.

As for recommendations...

Well the first thing I would say (which is reiterating what others have said in this thread) is that a perma ban should be used only in the most extreme cases. For instance someone actively trying to cause real damage to the site/business (e.g someone who posts such offensive material that it drives away business, or spam that is designed to lure customers to another site), or engaging in clearly illegal activity (e.g. cyber-stalking/bullying, or using the forum as a venue to exchange pirated software, or kiddie porn). But all this is ostensibly already in the guidelines, perhaps they just need to be more carefully defined and more scrupulously adhered to.

The second thing I would say is that it might be good to have an appeal mechanism where someone who got perma-banned could attempt to lobby for a forum reinstatement. The community as whole could actually take part in this process perhaps a thread in the Cheat and Abuses forum opened for a specific period of time. Users could state their opinions both for and against reinstatement of the banned user. A poll could be included. This might help the mods to consider an individual case more thoroughly with respect to the individual user's impact on the community as a whole (and also provide a kind of face-saving mechanism for the moderators if a ban was imposed hastily or in a less than circumspect manner).

Someone please respond to this. Why do people address the guy venting, but not the guy with some genuinely good and productive ideas?

[hwhrhett]

The escalating ban scheme in the current form of the guidelines is somewhat like saying after the 6th or 7th parking ticket the police have the right to saw off your hands and poke out your eyes.

That seems a little harsh. If you continue to steal from Wal-Mart, will they not ban you from their store? Or how about continually getting drunk and jumping on the safety mesh at a ball game? That will get you a ban too.

My personal view is that there is likely a middle ground and as a group, you can always make positive changes if you do it in a positive way. I'm not a big fan of permas and though I have given a few forum holidays, I've generally been reluctant to do so. We are still talking about the problem too generally. If the forum goers are willing to work with me, I'd certainly be open working with you to come up with a recommendation or 2. What say you forumites?

Well, I admit that I was exaggerating in order to more clearly illustrate the point. But I don't think that the examples you cited are directly analogous to this instance either. Stealing from Wal-mart is doing actual damage to their business and is also a crime, and drunkenly climbing the safety mesh at the ballgame is creating a potential safety hazard. A more apt comparison would be going into Wal-mart often and complaining about the prices even though you are making purchases at that Wal-mart. Or going to the ballgame and making fun of the players on the field whenever they make an error. In either you case you wouldn't automatically expect to receive a ban, but there is a threshold at some point where that behavior could become genuinely disruptive and damaging to the environment as a whole. I don't think this recent incident with Dancing Mustard really reached that threshold.

As for recommendations...

Well the first thing I would say (which is reiterating what others have said in this thread) is that a perma ban should be used only in the most extreme cases. For instance someone actively trying to cause real damage to the site/business (e.g someone who posts such offensive material that it drives away business, or spam that is designed to lure customers to another site), or engaging in clearly illegal activity (e.g. cyber-stalking/bullying, or using the forum as a venue to exchange pirated software, or kiddie porn). But all this is ostensibly already in the guidelines, perhaps they just need to be more carefully defined and more scrupulously adhered to.

The second thing I would say is that it might be good to have an appeal mechanism where someone who got perma-banned could attempt to lobby for a forum reinstatement. The community as whole could actually take part in this process perhaps a thread in the Cheat and Abuses forum opened for a specific period of time. Users could state their opinions both for and against reinstatement of the banned user. A poll could be included. This might help the mods to consider an individual case more thoroughly with respect to the individual user's impact on the community as a whole (and also provide a kind of face-saving mechanism for the moderators if a ban was imposed hastily or in a less than circumspect manner).

Someone please respond to this. Why do people address the guy venting, but not the guy with some genuinely good and productive ideas?

there is already an appeals process, it is through the e-ticket system... of course that could not be discussed publicly, as in the past alot of people will stand up for people and vouch for people that end up being true cheaters and the people that vouched were either accomplises or people that just chose to believe someone's word rather than the facts....

and i dont know of anybody that was perma-banned for something that doesnt hurt the site....
ie:
consistent ridiculous abuse/vulgar language/hate speech hurts the site
cheating hurts the site.

[pimpdave]

Someone please respond to this. Why do people address the guy venting, but not the guy with some genuinely good and productive ideas?

Umm, he got the ideas from the guy who is in your face while providing good and productive ideas. I'm from the east coast, what the hell do you want? Round these parts we bond by fighting one another.

If I wanted to vent I'd have a livejournal. Instead I'm trying to get a point across to a public that has obviously deemed this thread valuable enough to take it to three pages in length. So, sir, I must respectfully say gfy, why don't you respond to it, and lets get back to the topic at hand.

[F1fth]

The escalating ban scheme in the current form of the guidelines is somewhat like saying after the 6th or 7th parking ticket the police have the right to saw off your hands and poke out your eyes.

That seems a little harsh. If you continue to steal from Wal-Mart, will they not ban you from their store? Or how about continually getting drunk and jumping on the safety mesh at a ball game? That will get you a ban too.

My personal view is that there is likely a middle ground and as a group, you can always make positive changes if you do it in a positive way. I'm not a big fan of permas and though I have given a few forum holidays, I've generally been reluctant to do so. We are still talking about the problem too generally. If the forum goers are willing to work with me, I'd certainly be open working with you to come up with a recommendation or 2. What say you forumites?

Well, I admit that I was exaggerating in order to more clearly illustrate the point. But I don't think that the examples you cited are directly analogous to this instance either. Stealing from Wal-mart is doing actual damage to their business and is also a crime, and drunkenly climbing the safety mesh at the ballgame is creating a potential safety hazard. A more apt comparison would be going into Wal-mart often and complaining about the prices even though you are making purchases at that Wal-mart. Or going to the ballgame and making fun of the players on the field whenever they make an error. In either you case you wouldn't automatically expect to receive a ban, but there is a threshold at some point where that behavior could become genuinely disruptive and damaging to the environment as a whole. I don't think this recent incident with Dancing Mustard really reached that threshold.

As for recommendations...

Well the first thing I would say (which is reiterating what others have said in this thread) is that a perma ban should be used only in the most extreme cases. For instance someone actively trying to cause real damage to the site/business (e.g someone who posts such offensive material that it drives away business, or spam that is designed to lure customers to another site), or engaging in clearly illegal activity (e.g. cyber-stalking/bullying, or using the forum as a venue to exchange pirated software, or kiddie porn). But all this is ostensibly already in the guidelines, perhaps they just need to be more carefully defined and more scrupulously adhered to.

The second thing I would say is that it might be good to have an appeal mechanism where someone who got perma-banned could attempt to lobby for a forum reinstatement. The community as whole could actually take part in this process perhaps a thread in the Cheat and Abuses forum opened for a specific period of time. Users could state their opinions both for and against reinstatement of the banned user. A poll could be included. This might help the mods to consider an individual case more thoroughly with respect to the individual user's impact on the community as a whole (and also provide a kind of face-saving mechanism for the moderators if a ban was imposed hastily or in a less than circumspect manner).

Someone please respond to this. Why do people address the guy venting, but not the guy with some genuinely good and productive ideas?

there is already an appeals process, it is through the e-ticket system... of course that could not be discussed publicly, as in the past alot of people will stand up for people and vouch for people that end up being true cheaters and the people that vouched were either accomplises or people that just chose to believe someone's word rather than the facts....

and i dont know of anybody that was perma-banned for something that doesnt hurt the site....
ie:
consistent ridiculous abuse/vulgar language/hate speech hurts the site
cheating hurts the site.

Appreciate the response. For what it's worth, I've never heard of any sentence successfully appealed within the e-ticket system. I think the ticket system is more for account issues and for general questions, not really an appeals system per se.

As for the latter, I would argue than DM has done neither of the things you listed. Sure, he's been kind of a bugger sometimes, but at its worst his behavior is an annoyance, not a serious harm to this site (while at its best contributes A LOT to this site's community).

[pimpdave]

cheating hurts the site.

Dancing Mustard has never cheated, neither have I. Yet I've been banned for things that never hurt the site.

the only people that complain that they are too strict are people that make a habit of breaking the rules..

So then what, you've never taken a risk? You've never made a mistake? Because I can tell you, for certain, that the banning I received from Nighty for the "porn offense" was such a clear mistake no one can ever say it was anything but. I was trying to do a good thing, and educate the masses about how deceptively bad pornography can be.

Instead of being told, "hey man, looks like you made a mistake, but that video had some links to some boobies that weren't a part of that video itself, at all, and some people are very offended by that, so we edited it out, just wanted to let you know to avoid that in the future," I was effectively told,

"Ahoy, pimpdave, you have broken a rule you never knew you broke and so we're issuing you a ban, do not bother telling us it was a huge mistake and you'll not do it again and you are sorry and didn't realize because we are set in our ways and do not want to hear anything from the community because we assume you are all simply addicts who won't complain, so you're banned because I can't get with girls unless I pay for them so I have to take out my frustration on you because I can. Oh yeah, also, even though this banning is complete malarkey, it's going onto your permanent record so we can keep building towards getting rid of you, which is all the message this banning sends anyway. Oh, and hey, give us money for premium, it's totally worth it! Whee!"

This is the same thing Dancing Mustard was told repeatedly.

Now, it wouldn't be such a big deal if that wasn't added to some PERMANENT RECORD that couldn't EVER BE ERASED OR CHANGED. If it was just, "hey, you did something risky and got burnt, here's 24 hours to rethink the links you post and make sure none contain links to stuff that is inappropriate", that'd be fine. But because it becomes this part of a permanent record that is used to justify a permanent banning, I have every right to be completely pissed off about it, just as Dancing Mustard should be. And if they'll do it to him, they'll do it to all of us.

[F1fth]

Someone please respond to this. Why do people address the guy venting, but not the guy with some genuinely good and productive ideas?

Umm, he got the ideas from the guy who is in your face while providing good and productive ideas. I'm from New Jersey, what the hell do you want? Round these parts we bond by fighting one another.

If I wanted to vent I'd have a livejournal. Instead I'm trying to get a point across to a public that has obviously deemed this thread valuable enough to take it to three pages in length. So, sir, I must respectfully say gfy, why don't you respond to it, and lets get back to the topic at hand.

No offense intended, and I humbly accept my deserved "gfy." My point was that people were choosing to respond the perceived negativity in the post, instead of the constructiveness of it and others.

[hwhrhett]

Appreciate the response. For what it's worth, I've never heard of any sentence successfully appealed within the e-ticket system. I think the ticket system is more for account issues and for general questions, not really an appeals system per se.

As for the latter, I would argue than DM has done neither of the things you listed. Sure, he's been kind of a bugger sometimes, but at its worst his behavior is an annoyance, not a serious harm to this site (while at its best contributes A LOT to this site's community).

people appeal and get reinstated through etickets often. it happens, sometimes the mods make mistakes, ive seen it happen. the reason you never hear about it, is because the only people that complain about being banned or need to post about being banned are the people that legitimately broke the rules, and can only have their side(typically a very slanted point of view) heard by making a fuss in the forum.

i can tell you this tho, i know of nobody who was reinstated because they whined about it like pimpdave.

and to you pimpdave, i understand your bust wholly. if i posted a video that was geniunely wholesome but had porno ads on the side of it, i wouldnt post it, because there is a good chance that it will cause problems for some. i mean, you didnt just post the video.... you posted a link to a website that had adult content on it, just because you wanted people to focus on one tiny part of the page, doesnt mean that people will. and frankly anything adult oriented you should just keep to yourself i think.

[pimpdave]

people appeal and get reinstated through etickets often. it happens, sometimes the mods make mistakes, ive seen it happen. the reason you never hear about it, is because the only people that complain about being banned or need to post about being banned are the people that legitimately broke the rules, and can only have their side(typically a very slanted point of view) heard by making a fuss in the forum.

i can tell you this tho, i know of nobody who was reinstated because they whined about it like pimpdave.

and to you pimpdave, i understand your bust wholly. if i posted a video that was geniunely wholesome but had porno ads on the side of it, i wouldnt post it, because there is a good chance that it will cause problems for some. i mean, you didnt just post the video.... you posted a link to a website that had adult content on it, just because you wanted people to focus on one tiny part of the page, doesnt mean that people will. and frankly anything adult oriented you should just keep to yourself i think.

And guess what you trolling fool, I ALREADY STATED THAT I HAD NO IDEA WHAT THOSE RANDOMLY GENERATED RELATED VIDEOS WOULD BE. I had no idea there would be links to videos about preventing breast cancer (because that is what they were OH THE HUMANITY)

I had never done it before, I've never done it since. I didn't need something going on my permanent record about it, and I did try to appeal to private channels, but the disgraced and removed mods, Night Strike and Twill must have seen it as an affront to their power.

That happened months ago, maybe even a year ago. But it is STILL PART OF THE PERMANENT RECORD.

There is no arguing with you. You are just part and parcel with the mods, and what will make this more interesting is when we find examples of you crossing the lines that we've all been busted for, but since your nose is so firmly planted in their rears, you've never been banned for it.

Just shut up. Either stop trolling and actually engage this thread, or shut up. I mean it. You're being a complete hypocrite otherwise, and if the mods don't ban you for 24 hours for your obvious trolling (just as DM used to do), then it simply further proves our point that this was a personal vendetta.

[Simon Viavant]

I thought this whole banning thing was supposed to be for if someone was a constant problem for the community. As I can see, very few people in the community had a problem with DM or pretty much anyone else who was permabanned, and if they did, it can be summed up in that they don't like him, which isn't a good reason for a ban. Most banned people always been appreciated by the community. They were banned because they annoyed a couple of the mods. The Community Guidelines say you'll be removed if you're constantly having a negative influence on the community. Annoying the mods probably deserves some punishment, but not a permaban.
Let's say people were complaining about DM. WHat's more important isn't the number of complaints, but the percentage. If 5 people complain about someone who has just joined and few people know the site, it should be taken more seriously than someone who gets 10 complaints but is liked by everyone else.

[pimpdave]

Let's say people were complaining about DM. WHat's more important isn't the number of complaints, but the percentage. If 5 people complain about someone who has just joined and few people know the site, it should be taken more seriously than someone who gets 10 complaints but is liked by everyone else.

Or, if they're going to have a complaint button, have a karma button too, where we can click to let people know that we appreciate and value the post, instead of only ever sending negative messages to the mods.

Of course, that's a silly compromise, the truth is, the mods should stop being so retart, and foster community rather than the divisive and toxic atmosphere they've been fostering since Twill was in charge.

Come on Hyasri, prove to us that Twill actually did leave. Prove to us that you really do mean to usher in a new time of "love and peace". Stop with the old paradigm as you claimed you would. I know you can do it. I'm sure you can. Give us a reason to have faith and we will.

[hwhrhett]

people appeal and get reinstated through etickets often. it happens, sometimes the mods make mistakes, ive seen it happen. the reason you never hear about it, is because the only people that complain about being banned or need to post about being banned are the people that legitimately broke the rules, and can only have their side(typically a very slanted point of view) heard by making a fuss in the forum.

i can tell you this tho, i know of nobody who was reinstated because they whined about it like pimpdave.

and to you pimpdave, i understand your bust wholly. if i posted a video that was geniunely wholesome but had porno ads on the side of it, i wouldnt post it, because there is a good chance that it will cause problems for some. i mean, you didnt just post the video.... you posted a link to a website that had adult content on it, just because you wanted people to focus on one tiny part of the page, doesnt mean that people will. and frankly anything adult oriented you should just keep to yourself i think.

And guess what you trolling fool, I ALREADY STATED THAT I HAD NO IDEA WHAT THOSE RANDOMLY GENERATED RELATED VIDEOS WOULD BE. I had no idea there would be links to videos about preventing breast cancer (because that is what they were OH THE HUMANITY)

I had never done it before, I've never done it since. I didn't need something going on my permanent record about it, and I did try to appeal to private channels, but the disgraced and removed mods, Night Strike and Twill must have seen it as an affront to their power.

That happened months ago, maybe even a year ago. But it is STILL PART OF THE PERMANENT RECORD.

There is no arguing with you. You are just part and parcel with the mods, and what will make this more interesting is when we find examples of you crossing the lines that we've all been busted for, but since your nose is so firmly planted in their rears, you've never been banned for it.

Just shut up. Either stop trolling and actually engage this thread, or shut up. I mean it. You're being a complete hypocrite otherwise, and if the mods don't ban you for 24 hours for your obvious trolling (just as DM used to do), then it simply further proves our point that this was a personal vendetta.

what part of my posts were trolling? i believe i was pretty directly on-topic. you are the one trolling by responding with insults rather than thought out discussion. lick my balls.

[pimpdave]

So then what, you're Night Strike's multi, or what?

Keep trying to take this off topic, buddy, you're just helping to build the case against you.

Or maybe you could argue for the end to this repressive paradigm and accept that if you're going to be a trolling off-topic-going silly person, we all should be allowed to be, without the threat of a permanent ban.

Remember, I'm not arguing against temporary bans. I'm arguing against the permanent ban as a tool of ANYTHING but ABSOLUTE LAST RESORT.

[Night Strike]

And guess what you trolling fool, I ALREADY STATED THAT I HAD NO IDEA WHAT THOSE RANDOMLY GENERATED RELATED VIDEOS WOULD BE. I had no idea there would be links to videos about preventing breast cancer (because that is what they were OH THE HUMANITY)

I had never done it before, I've never done it since. I didn't need something going on my permanent record about it, and I did try to appeal to private channels, but the disgraced and removed mods, Night Strike and Twill must have seen it as an affront to their power.

That happened months ago, maybe even a year ago. But it is STILL PART OF THE PERMANENT RECORD.

By the way, I still haven't been removed, muchless disgraced. You should find a new argument.

Since you brought it up, I'll post it. Here is what I wrote when I gave you that 24 hour vacation:

Although the video you posted was not pornographic, the other videos/links on the page were. This is not allowed on this site, so please take 24 hours to make sure all the links you wish to post on this site comply with the Community Guidelines.

I'll let the public decide.

By the way, you know full well what your record has been since I gave you that forum vacation at the beginning of January. I'm not allowed to discuss it publicly of my own volition, but I do see that the 24 hour vacation I gave you did not move you up the ladder. Maybe you should share the other things you've posted that have earned you warnings and vacations in an effort of full disclosure.

There is no arguing with you. You are just part and parcel with the mods, and what will make this more interesting is when we find examples of you crossing the lines that we've all been busted for, but since your nose is so firmly planted in their rears, you've never been banned for it.

Just shut up. Either stop trolling and actually engage this thread, or shut up. I mean it. You're being a complete hypocrite otherwise, and if the mods don't ban you for 24 hours for your obvious trolling (just as DM used to do), then it simply further proves our point that this was a personal vendetta.

He's not trolling, he's disagreeing with your claim. Not everyone who is not a mod will agree with you.

[PLAYER57832]

First, I am definitely not going to criticize any one mod. If I have an issue, I take it to the person directly. I have, the matters were resolved.. the end.

I have had mixed feelings about the DM issue all along. On the one hand, DM was fun and I am not really sure why what he did was so very terrible. On the other hand, there are some people who want to constantly challenge any rule, any "system" and DM seemed to be one. Maybe the rules did/do need to be modified, but breaking rules is usually not the most effective way to elicite change.

I think jonuscurl put it well.

My feeling is that there is something more going on here. Specifically, I suspect that these threads might be taking up more server space or some such. But, if that is the case, then perhaps that should be addressed more directly. For example, maybe there needs to be a limit on the number of threads someone can start or (gasp ) even a limit on the number of posts. I would hate to see that. Also, just having a limit may make some people post up to that point and actually make the situation worse.

The other alternative is that there was something going on outside of the public forums. If that is true, none of us may ever know what really happened. Nor should we.

[pimpdave]

He's not trolling, he's disagreeing with your claim. Not everyone who is not a mod will agree with you.

Seriously, why the hell are you in this thread? Your ability to be impartial is clearly compromised. If you are speaking for all of the mods, then please, keep posting, if not, then for your own good, shut up.

[pimpdave]

My feeling is that there is something more going on here. Specifically, I suspect that these threads might be taking up more server space or some such. But, if that is the case, then perhaps that should be addressed more directly. For example, maybe there needs to be a limit on the number of threads someone can start or (gasp ) even a limit on the number of posts. I would hate to see that. Also, just having a limit may make some people post up to that point and actually make the situation worse.

They could start deleting all of the threads that are a year or more old, that would prevent necro bumping and save a ton of server space.

The forum that I've been moderating for the last year has been doing that. And it works, we can keep our costs down while preserving the free spirit of the board. If there's a post someone really wants to keep, they can copy and paste it into a Word document, or whatever.

Also, the longest ban I've issued was for 2 weeks, and that was to a guy who was getting on everyone's nerves for posting links to articles he had written on another site. He'd post like 5 of these threads a day, and then bump them continuously even though no one was replying or visiting his site.

The two week ban was enough, he now only posts one of his articles a day and bumps it only once.

[F1fth]

I thought this whole banning thing was supposed to be for if someone was a constant problem for the community. As I can see, very few people in the community had a problem with DM or pretty much anyone else who was permabanned, and if they did, it can be summed up in that they don't like him, which isn't a good reason for a ban. Most banned people always been appreciated by the community. They were banned because they annoyed a couple of the mods. The Community Guidelines say you'll be removed if you're constantly having a negative influence on the community. Annoying the mods probably deserves some punishment, but not a permaban.
Let's say people were complaining about DM. WHat's more important isn't the number of complaints, but the percentage. If 5 people complain about someone who has just joined and few people know the site, it should be taken more seriously than someone who gets 10 complaints but is liked by everyone else.

EXCELLENT POINT! What is everyone's opinion on this?

Appreciate the response. For what it's worth, I've never heard of any sentence successfully appealed within the e-ticket system. I think the ticket system is more for account issues and for general questions, not really an appeals system per se.

As for the latter, I would argue than DM has done neither of the things you listed. Sure, he's been kind of a bugger sometimes, but at its worst his behavior is an annoyance, not a serious harm to this site (while at its best contributes A LOT to this site's community).

people appeal and get reinstated through etickets often. it happens, sometimes the mods make mistakes, ive seen it happen. the reason you never hear about it, is because the only people that complain about being banned or need to post about being banned are the people that legitimately broke the rules, and can only have their side(typically a very slanted point of view) heard by making a fuss in the forum.

Well, actually, we're making a case for DM. He himself has not raised a ruckus, and many of us are being civil and constructive about approaching this matter. I'm not sure that you knew DM, but as quite a few others have said (and some even people who didn't like him and debated with him frequently) voiced their support of the notion that while annoying sometimes, DM did not harm the site.

i can tell you this tho, i know of nobody who was reinstated because they whined about it like pimpdave.

and to you pimpdave, i understand your bust wholly. if i posted a video that was geniunely wholesome but had porno ads on the side of it, i wouldnt post it, because there is a good chance that it will cause problems for some. i mean, you didnt just post the video.... you posted a link to a website that had adult content on it, just because you wanted people to focus on one tiny part of the page, doesnt mean that people will. and frankly anything adult oriented you should just keep to yourself i think.

I think it makes a good bit of difference that the site that Dave linked to happened to be Youtube, not really site that people usually have a problem linking to.

[owenshooter]

the only people that complain that they are too strict are people that make a habit of breaking the rules..

really? i just received a final warning for "trolling" the General Congrats thread. however, i did not break any rules of the thread or the forum when posting in there. and oddly enough, jiminski and robinette just did the same exact thing that pimpdave and myself did, with no warning. when pressed for clarification from first myself and then fruitcake (on behalf of my clan), we received NO RESPONSE FROM THE ADMINS. wow!!! i recall andy breaking the rules of the general congrats thread, not understanding the rules of the thread, then deleting an entire page of the thread to save face, but i deserved a final warning for not breaking one rule? the mods/admins are simply out of control and lack needs to bring back twill, period. i dare anyone to show me what DM did besides put egg in the face of the admins and mods for not knowing their own rules and the fact that he had not broken any of them.-0

[PLAYER57832]

My feeling is that there is something more going on here. Specifically, I suspect that these threads might be taking up more server space or some such. But, if that is the case, then perhaps that should be addressed more directly. For example, maybe there needs to be a limit on the number of threads someone can start or (gasp ) even a limit on the number of posts. I would hate to see that. Also, just having a limit may make some people post up to that point and actually make the situation worse.

They could start deleting all of the threads that are a year or more old, that would prevent necro bumping and save a ton of server space.

The forum that I've been moderating for the last year has been doing that. And it works, we can keep our costs down while preserving the free spirit of the board. If there's a post someone really wants to keep, they can copy and paste it into a Word document, or whatever.

I am just guessing. I have absolutely no idea if this was reality or not.

[pimpdave]

They could start deleting all of the threads that are a year or more old, that would prevent necro bumping and save a ton of server space.

The forum that I've been moderating for the last year has been doing that. And it works, we can keep our costs down while preserving the free spirit of the board. If there's a post someone really wants to keep, they can copy and paste it into a Word document, or whatever.

I am just guessing. I have absolutely no idea if this was reality or not.

And what are we supposed to do in the absence of any real communication? That's part of why this forum is so dead and so sad... The favorites get treated well, the rest of us don't. The favorites tell us we're overreacting and we tell the favorites that they have no idea what's really going on.

The mods aren't straight with us all the time, so we can only assume they aren't straight with us ever. It's really sad, but this site could be so much better if half the complaints that result in bans resulted in mods suggesting the crybaby put the person they dislike on ignore.