The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

[jiminski]

Sorry if this is a repeat. I'm pressed for time. But here is an example that can be used as an analogy:

A person shoplifts and is found guilty. He is sentenced to 20 hours of community service.

He shoplifts again 6 months later and is found guilty. He is sentenced to 2 weeks in jail.

He shoplifts again 3 months later and is found guilty. He is sentenced to 1 month in jail.

He steals a car 2 months later and is found guilty. He is sentenced to 1 year in jail.

He shoplifts again 6 months later and is found guilty. He is sentenced to 2 months in jail.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

But there is no way this annoying prick is going to ever be executed or thrown into jail for more than a few months for shoplifting. He might get another year for stealing a car. But never, ever, life.

This time, DM only shoplifted. A fuckin' pack of chewing gum. 24 hours of community service. Max.


I agree with the concept of a permanent ban. But it would have to be applied only in extreme cases. The permabanning of DM was a poor decision.

[Optimus Prime]

the mods/admins are simply out of control and lack needs to bring back twill, period.

Last time I checked, lackattack was fully aware of the decision to ban Dancing Mustard and did not express any problems or concerns with the decision. Before you, owenshooter, or anyone else continues to pretend that lackattack does not have a say, or that he does not have a clear idea of the actions of the moderators or admins you should make sure that you know all of the facts, to the letter. So far, your continued insistence on stating that he is entirely out of the loop is entirely uninformed and false.

Night Strike was not removed from the position of global moderator because of abuse or misuse of his powers, he was asked by the admins to shift his responsibilities over to being the head of the tournaments department. That's all. That is one fact that pimpdave needs to get straight as well.

Regards, OP

[F1fth]

Hey OP, what about this? I'm just trying to get a response to these points.

I thought this whole banning thing was supposed to be for if someone was a constant problem for the community. As I can see, very few people in the community had a problem with DM or pretty much anyone else who was permabanned, and if they did, it can be summed up in that they don't like him, which isn't a good reason for a ban. Most banned people always been appreciated by the community. They were banned because they annoyed a couple of the mods. The Community Guidelines say you'll be removed if you're constantly having a negative influence on the community. Annoying the mods probably deserves some punishment, but not a permaban.
Let's say people were complaining about DM. WHat's more important isn't the number of complaints, but the percentage. If 5 people complain about someone who has just joined and few people know the site, it should be taken more seriously than someone who gets 10 complaints but is liked by everyone else.

Also, a short list of questions:
-Do you think permabans should only be issued when absolutely necessary?
-Do you think a permaban in the case of DM was absolutely necessary?
-Do you think the community is better (as a whole, not personally) without DM around?
-Do you think the community should get any input as to what is best for the community?
-Finally, do you think shortening the term of DM's ban to a temporary one would cause a problem?

OP or any other admin/mod is free and encouraged to respond to these set of questions.

[Optimus Prime]

Tell you what, F1fth, I'll answer these questions with my honest answers from the point of view as an admin. However, I want you to respect those answers and understand that the answers are not going to please everyone as well as refrain from dragging things through the mud when I'm finished. Sound like a deal?

-Do you think permabans should only be issued when absolutely necessary?

Yes, I think that permanent forum bans should be used as a final measure to ensure the stability of the community. However, in the effort to ensure that stability, I also believe that if a user has received numerous warnings and punishments that a permanent forum ban can be warranted to prevent problems from arising if the user has demonstrated that they are here in the community to be a general nuisance and very little else, regardless of how popular they may be with some forum regulars.

-Do you think a permaban in the case of DM was absolutely necessary

Anyone can always argue that anything is never absolutely necessary, which I think makes sense to most of us. In the case of Dancing Mustard, yes, I do believe it was time for him to go, and I do support the decision that was made as a collective of four admins over the course of a discussion that had facts and examples brought forward in what I believe to be a fair manner.

-Do you think the community is better (as a whole, not personally) without DM around?

Yes, I do, and please let me explain why. During Dancing Mustard's self-imposed sabbatical from Conquer Club the moderation team and the admins especially enduring a very large drop in complaints about the atmosphere in the forum as a whole. Was Dancing Mustard the only cause for those complaints? No, he was not, they are largely brought about by a chosen few forum regulars (who I shall not name out of respect and a wish to avoid mud-slinging). Upon his return, the number of general complaints about him and others who followed his lead began to rise dramatically, at least in respect to the work that I do personally as an admin, I cannot speak for the other three members of the admin team.

I am entirely willing to admit that over my time here at Conquer Club I have laughed out loud on many occasions due to the wit of Dancing Mustard, and at times I've thought he was dead on with his ideas and thoughts, but that does not change the fact that not everyone saw him as some sort of hero or personality figure in the forum, and as admins it is our jobs to try and make decisions that will benefit the greater number of people. Many here don't believe the decision to ban Dancing Mustard permanently is of benefit, but what everyone also needs to remember is that what you see here in the publicly viewed forums is not the entire story of the impact he had on the community. Think what you will about that, but it is the truth.

-Do you think the community should get any input as to what is best for the community?

I don't think that the community at large should be put in charge of discussing who should and should not be permanently banned, no. I think that will lead to many more problems than it would solve. However, I do think that the community can be allowed to have a voice in deciding certain things that will ultimately provide what is best for the community. Case in point is the not so far in the past situation revolving around bigotry/racism and the policies that should be enforced regarding such things. The community was clamoring for more definitive punishment procedures and out of that came quite a productive discussion about consistency, the difference between major and minor forum infractions, and many other things. As a result of the community input AndyDufresne was able to determine two new ladders for escalating punishments, one for major infractions, and one for minor infractions.

Interestingly enough, the community was quite pleased when Andy made it known that the new ladders were in place and he explained how they would be used, but now that they are being enforced and someone who is "beloved" by the community is the victim all of the sudden these new ladders of punishment are inadequate and absurd. I find it quite interesting to see the same people who praised the new ladders now tearing them down as absurd, but that is simply my personal opinion.

-Finally, do you think shortening the term of DM's ban to a temporary one would cause a problem?

Yes, I do believe that it would. He was punished according to the new punishment system that the community was calling for and he received the proper punishment within that system. To reverse the decision will not only make the system worthless, but it will also require many other bans to be reversed as well, something that is not favorable in the least.

[jiminski]

Tell you what, F1fth, I'll answer these questions with my honest answers from the point of view as an admin. However, I want you to respect those answers and understand that the answers are not going to please everyone as well as refrain from dragging things through the mud when I'm finished. Sound like a deal?

...

why'd you have to go and say that Prime?

[Optimus Prime]

Tell you what, F1fth, I'll answer these questions with my honest answers from the point of view as an admin. However, I want you to respect those answers and understand that the answers are not going to please everyone as well as refrain from dragging things through the mud when I'm finished. Sound like a deal?

...

why'd you have to go and say that Prime?

Because contrary to the common opinion, I'm not a raving lunatic, and I'm not an arrogant bastard. If I'm going to spend the time to give you an honest answer I want it to be respected. I have reserved my commenting on the issue for quite some time while I tried to get my thoughts in line with what the opinions and concerns of the community are so I could answer them in a respectful manner.

Besides, I can't always be predictable, that would be boring.

[niMic]

Some people are going to ridiculous lengths to come up with silly hyperbole that doesn't actually in any way relate to the issue at hand. No, getting banned for repeatedly breaking the rules does not equate to the wild idea of getting your hands cut off for getting sequential parking tickets. I also think this aversion to permanent bans in general is very odd. In every single forum I've ever frequented, people have been banned for repeatedly breaking the rules.

I'd say CC is by far one of the most lenient forums I've regularly visited to, actually. In some, the rules are lax, but as soon as you break them you're off. In others, there are warning points systems, which isn't really all that different to how it works at CC.

This is an online game, and an internet forum. There's not some great injustice going on. We can't get Amnesty involved, or the Hague. That's not to say that I don't think people should complain if they feel hard done by. I've done that myself several times on other forums, and it did always annoy me when people used the "it's just a forum" line.

Thing is, in this case, things have taken a turn for the hysterical. I feel the line was crossed certainly with the obscene use of a poem/speech on the injustice of the Nazi's, just worded to fit CC. The ridiculous comparisons don't help either.

[redhawk92]

The escalating ban scheme in the current form of the guidelines is somewhat like saying after the 6th or 7th parking ticket the police have the right to saw off your hands and poke out your eyes.

That seems a little harsh. If you continue to steal from Wal-Mart, will they not ban you from their store? Or how about continually getting drunk and jumping on the safety mesh at a ball game? That will get you a ban too.

My personal view is that there is likely a middle ground and as a group, you can always make positive changes if you do it in a positive way. I'm not a big fan of permas and though I have given a few forum holidays, I've generally been reluctant to do so. We are still talking about the problem too generally. If the forum goers are willing to work with me, I'd certainly be open working with you to come up with a recommendation or 2. What say you forumites?

man you know nothing about wal mart i worked there for a while no one is banned accept one woman who stole or attempted to steal a tv on 20 occasions

[jiminski]

Tell you what, F1fth, I'll answer these questions with my honest answers from the point of view as an admin. However, I want you to respect those answers and understand that the answers are not going to please everyone as well as refrain from dragging things through the mud when I'm finished. Sound like a deal?

...

why'd you have to go and say that Prime?

Because contrary to the common opinion, I'm not a raving lunatic, and I'm not an arrogant bastard. If I'm going to spend the time to give you an honest answer I want it to be respected. I have reserved my commenting on the issue for quite some time while I tried to get my thoughts in line with what the opinions and concerns of the community are so I could answer them in a respectful manner.

Besides, I can't always be predictable, that would be boring.

but that's what i mean mate. The 'demand' that your opinion be respected, just because it is your opinion, kind of undermines the perusers ability to view your answer with an open mind.
you snatched defeat from the jaws of potential victory with your first breath. In my opinion that opening did a disservice to the obvious care you took to address the situation.

[Crazyirishman]

I may new to the forum but when reading this thread a few ideas came to me. These ideas are raw and I don't know if they are good or bad.

1. In the case of repeat offenders impose a fine in order to become active, eventually they will change thier ways or run out of money.

2. When people come back from vacation give them a parole officer that approves thier posts before they are posted. This could create a group seperate from the moderators the users could become apart of.

3. Set up a lobby system for people to complain about thier banishments. abuse, and other important things. If they present a reasonable case, the CC community can vote on whether they can be reinstated. People allowed to vote must have been members for 3 or 4 months in order to prevent multi's from voting.

4. Make a new subforum where people who feel like being jerks, can be with others of their taste.

Any improvements or suggestions are welcome

[redhawk92]

I may new to the forum but when reading this thread a few ideas came to me. These ideas are raw and I don't know if they are good or bad.

1. In the case of repeat offenders impose a fine in order to become active, eventually they will change thier ways or run out of money.

2. When people come back from vacation give them a parole officer that approves thier posts before they are posted. This could create a group seperate from the moderators the users could become apart of.

3. Set up a lobby system for people to complain about thier banishments. abuse, and other important things. If they present a reasonable case, the CC community can vote on whether they can be reinstated. People allowed to vote must have been members for 3 or 4 months in order to prevent multi's from voting.

4. Make a new subforum where people who feel like being jerks, can be with others of their taste.

Any improvements or suggestions are welcome

well this is my response to number 4 we use to have flame wars but a multi called hyrasi was made to be an admin and delete it

[mibi]

Anyone comparing this to real crimes or using a legal system analogy is a dumb ass.

But fear not, in a few weeks time, no one will give a shit, Dancing Mustard will be just another kerfuffle in your browser cache, and ConquerClub will continue its slow and steady decline, just like it has before the DM was banned.

[jiminski]

Anyone comparing this to real crimes or using a legal system analogy is a dumb ass.

But fear not, in a few weeks time, no one will give a shit, Dancing Mustard will be just another kerfuffle in your browser cache, and ConquerClub will continue its slow and steady decline, just like it has before the DM was banned.

heheh hello sunshine!

[Optimus Prime]

but that's what i mean mate. The 'demand' that your opinion be respected, just because it is your opinion, kind of undermines the perusers ability to view your answer with an open mind.
you snatched defeat from the jaws of potential victory with your first breath. In my opinion that opening did a disservice to the obvious care you took to address the situation.

I have to disagree. I made the statement with the intent that the care I took in my responses be displayed in the responses made following regarding my comments. I suppose you don't have to respect them if you don't wish, to be honest, I'm rather used to it as even on the few occasions I've made an effort to measure my words carefully they are ignored or ridiculed at best. Keep in mind that while many of you feel disrespected and abused, that perhaps you should give some thought as well to the situations you put the admin and moderator teams in by bashing your heads against everything that we do, positive or otherwise. You wish to be respected, and so do we, however often it is made to seem that the only ones being abused are the members at large, which I personally believe to be false. I don't intend to put myself out there as a martyr as I get paid to make unpopular decisions, and I get paid to take the flack and abuse, but many on TeamCC do not, which presents an interesting situation to say the least.

That's a discussion for another time and place however, take what you will from my comments, they were meant to be an honest and true description of my thoughts in answer to the questions posed. I hold no false hope that they will please many individuals, but thought it might be worthwhile to put them out there so that they could be seen by the many who feel that the admins are ignoring the current situation.

[Crazyirishman]

Optimus Prime I would like to know what you think of my ideas.

[jiminski]

but that's what i mean mate. The 'demand' that your opinion be respected, just because it is your opinion, kind of undermines the perusers ability to view your answer with an open mind.
you snatched defeat from the jaws of potential victory with your first breath. In my opinion that opening did a disservice to the obvious care you took to address the situation.

I have to disagree. I made the statement with the intent that the care I took in my responses be displayed in the responses made following regarding my comments. I suppose you don't have to respect them if you don't wish, to be honest, I'm rather used to it as even on the few occasions I've made an effort to measure my words carefully they are ignored or ridiculed at best. Keep in mind that while many of you feel disrespected and abused, that perhaps you should give some thought as well to the situations you put the admin and moderator teams in by bashing your heads against everything that we do, positive or otherwise. You wish to be respected, and so do we, however often it is made to seem that the only ones being abused are the members at large, which I personally believe to be false. I don't intend to put myself out there as a martyr as I get paid to make unpopular decisions, and I get paid to take the flack and abuse, but many on TeamCC do not, which presents an interesting situation to say the least.

That's a discussion for another time and place however, take what you will from my comments, they were meant to be an honest and true description of my thoughts in answer to the questions posed. I hold no false hope that they will please many individuals, but thought it might be worthwhile to put them out there so that they could be seen by the many who feel that the admins are ignoring the current situation.

you have to disagree with how your opening appeared to me?
.. anyway, i understand that the beginning of your post comes of frustration but all i am saying is that the very beginning undermines somewhat the body of the text which followed.

I am just explaining to you that it came over, to me at least, in a way which spoiled what followed. That was a shame considering the effort you put into the answer.

Saying this, I do not agree with much of what you actually said but i did actually respect it as your honest and sincere opinion .. But now due to the start; the ultimatum of respect and it being a latent profession of the final word on the matter, i am talking about that instead of the body of the post.

[pimpdave]

The Great Escape. Part One of Sixteen

Just watch the movie you dummies. It's free and legal.

Mods, take notes. You're supposed to be cool guards.

Whoops, forgot this part:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=The ... iew=videos

That's the user profile's list of YTs posted, you can find the other 15 parts there.

[Crazyirishman]

The Great Escape. Part One of Sixteen

Just watch the movie you dummies. It's free and legal.

Mods, take notes. You're supposed to be cool guards.

pimpdave, do you know what that links to.

[captain.crazy]

I don't know much about this concept of a perma ban. But is seems that this is something that is a possibility here... and on other forums as well, as it is, indeed a feature that is built into the forum software. It sounds to me that every member here knows what the consequences are with regards to bending, breaking, or testing the rules. If you do not, there seems to be a pretty long learning curve involved. Indeed, Dancing Mustard admitted that he thought he would have been permabanned long ago... only he did not really expect it at this time, I suspect because he got rather used to the "sword of damaclese" so to speak.

What would you have the mods to, then? Release Dancing Mustard? And if so, to what end? Would you have him give his scouts honor pledge to never break the rules again? Would he keep that promise if he thought, "Oh, well, they just can't keep me down..." He would have too much power then.

What then, of those that you would rather not see back here then? Does the Mob get the rule on those folks? What resources would be warranted in going back through the list of "permabanned" members, to review their cases and render their accounts un-banned?

I think that DM knew what he was doing, and he was aware of the consequences of his actions, and so, I say, let there be a standing perma ban on him. He deserves it. The vast majority of you only liked him for his wit, and found him entertaining, but it was almost always at the expense of someone elses ideas or integrity.

Were it I that was perma banned, would there be such protest? Black avatars, indeed. He can still play the games, from what I can tell. That is, after all, what this site is for, no?

[Optimus Prime]

Here you are, Crazyirishman, as requested.

1. In the case of repeat offenders impose a fine in order to become active, eventually they will change thier ways or run out of money.

The use of the forum on Conquer Club is not actually part of the services that you purchase as a premium member, therefore, it makes it rather difficult to apply a fine to returning somewhere you have as a privilege to begin with. Right now there is a "pseudo-fine" in place for busted accounts to repurchase premium membership in order to return to the site in order to play the game. A fine for forum activity would hardly be well received and would make Conquer Club look as though they are desperate for income.

2. When people come back from vacation give them a parole officer that approves thier posts before they are posted. This could create a group seperate from the moderators the users could become apart of.

A dedicated parole officer would be rather hard to find in my opinion. We already have a team of volunteer moderators who keep watch on the forum and to this point they seem to be aware of any returning troublemakers who continue to behave in a negative manner upon their return, allowing appropriate measures to be taken. The process of requiring someone to approve posts would be far too tedious as on this forum the only individuals with the power to approve posts are those with red names, and there are only four of us.

3. Set up a lobby system for people to complain about thier banishments. abuse, and other important things. If they present a reasonable case, the CC community can vote on whether they can be reinstated. People allowed to vote must have been members for 3 or 4 months in order to prevent multi's from voting.

As mentioned previously, any banned or punished member can contact the site via an e-ticket if they wish to make an appeal. Overturned punishments are rare, as they are in most punishment systems anywhere in the world. I mentioned in my response to F1fth that having a community vote is not a favorable idea because it will lead to factioning, prolonged debates, and a general sense of hostility by whichever side of the argument doesn't come out on top. Democracy is a great thing, but applying it to some sort of appeal system in this forum is a bit of a stretch.

4. Make a new subforum where people who feel like being jerks, can be with others of their taste.

There was previously a forum entitled Flame Wars that allowed members to vent their anger, but due to abuse, not being used for its intended purpose and a general sense of negativity that it introduced into the forum as a whole it was eventually archived, not deleted as many believe.

[Optimus Prime]

but that's what i mean mate. The 'demand' that your opinion be respected, just because it is your opinion, kind of undermines the perusers ability to view your answer with an open mind.
you snatched defeat from the jaws of potential victory with your first breath. In my opinion that opening did a disservice to the obvious care you took to address the situation.

I have to disagree. I made the statement with the intent that the care I took in my responses be displayed in the responses made following regarding my comments. I suppose you don't have to respect them if you don't wish, to be honest, I'm rather used to it as even on the few occasions I've made an effort to measure my words carefully they are ignored or ridiculed at best. Keep in mind that while many of you feel disrespected and abused, that perhaps you should give some thought as well to the situations you put the admin and moderator teams in by bashing your heads against everything that we do, positive or otherwise. You wish to be respected, and so do we, however often it is made to seem that the only ones being abused are the members at large, which I personally believe to be false. I don't intend to put myself out there as a martyr as I get paid to make unpopular decisions, and I get paid to take the flack and abuse, but many on TeamCC do not, which presents an interesting situation to say the least.

That's a discussion for another time and place however, take what you will from my comments, they were meant to be an honest and true description of my thoughts in answer to the questions posed. I hold no false hope that they will please many individuals, but thought it might be worthwhile to put them out there so that they could be seen by the many who feel that the admins are ignoring the current situation.

you have to disagree with how your opening appeared to me?
.. anyway, i understand that the beginning of your post comes of frustration but all i am saying is that the very beginning undermines somewhat the body of the text which followed.

I am just explaining to you that it came over, to me at least, in a way which spoiled what followed. That was a shame considering the effort you put into the answer.

Saying this, I do not agree with much of what you actually said but i did actually respect it as your honest and sincere opinion .. But now due to the start; the ultimatum of respect and it being a latent profession of the final word on the matter, i am talking about that instead of the body of the post.

My apologies for inadvertently spoiling the majority of my comments for you, jiminski, that certainly was not my intent, and my choice of words could quite likely have been better, but like I said, I can't please everyone, and if you wish to feel the comments were spoiled, it is entirely your right. To be honest, I didn't think you'd agree with anything I had to say anyways. That's alright though, most won't.

Not all of us can be spectacularly eloquent at all times.

[pimpdave]

The Great Escape. Part One of Sixteen

Just watch the movie you dummies. It's free and legal.

Mods, take notes. You're supposed to be cool guards.

pimpdave, do you know what that links to.

If they ban me for it they're beyond retarded.

[Woodruff]

ive gotten into very heated arguements with many different mods over clan rights actually.. and ive never had a problem with them attempting to exact revenge... or being vindictive....

And so, despite all of the testimony saying that it does go on, since it hasn't happened to you, you completely disallow for the possibility that it does?
Come on...

frankly, if it were up to me, people would get 2 warnings, then banned. i think the mods are often too lenient if anything.
the only people that complain that they are too strict are people that make a habit of breaking the rules..

Two things here. First of all, I do actually agree almost completely with hwhrhett here. I too think the mods are quite lenient. That being said, I do think that DM's offenses in THIS PARTICULAR case weren't really worthy of a perma-ban (though I do think he's had PREVIOUS offenses that were, so...).

[captain.crazy]

ive gotten into very heated arguements with many different mods over clan rights actually.. and ive never had a problem with them attempting to exact revenge... or being vindictive....

And so, despite all of the testimony saying that it does go on, since it hasn't happened to you, you completely disallow for the possibility that it does?
Come on...

frankly, if it were up to me, people would get 2 warnings, then banned. i think the mods are often too lenient if anything.
the only people that complain that they are too strict are people that make a habit of breaking the rules..

Two things here. First of all, I do actually agree almost completely with hwhrhett here. I too think the mods are quite lenient. That being said, I do think that DM's offenses in THIS PARTICULAR case weren't really worthy of a perma-ban (though I do think he's had PREVIOUS offenses that were, so...).

I understand that it was a culmination of events that lead to his demise.

[Woodruff]

Someone please respond to this. Why do people address the guy venting, but not the guy with some genuinely good and productive ideas?

there is already an appeals process, it is through the e-ticket system... of course that could not be discussed publicly, as in the past alot of people will stand up for people and vouch for people that end up being true cheaters and the people that vouched were either accomplises or people that just chose to believe someone's word rather than the facts....
and i dont know of anybody that was perma-banned for something that doesnt hurt the site....
ie:
consistent ridiculous abuse/vulgar language/hate speech hurts the site
cheating hurts the site.

Appreciate the response. For what it's worth, I've never heard of any sentence successfully appealed within the e-ticket system. I think the ticket system is more for account issues and for general questions, not really an appeals system per se.

I AM aware of a couple of appeals that have been successfully resolved via the e-ticket system, though I will admit I don't think it's a common occurrence at all. Then again, maybe that's the case because those reviewing the situations agree with them.