Dancing Mustard - Why all the fuss?

[TheProwler]

Ok. Dancing Mustard was permanently banned. He was a character that evoked a range of emotions from anger and frustration to happiness and contentment. (I'm only going by the messages in threads about him - I don't even remember the guy).

There has been an outcry over his banning. People are getting emotional. Very emotional. It's kinda gay.

I got to thinking, about 2 minutes ago...why are people so emotionally involved? Why are people feeling so victimized by Conquer Club?

I think possibly that over time, people start to feel an attachment to other users here. People actually start to care for others here and feel a real, true camaraderie.

Now, over time, most of these "online friendships" eventually end - one person or the other eventually decides to leave the site for one reason or another. But it is always under the control of the friends. If DM were to announce that he were leaving, there would have been a response - but his decision would have been respected and people would get a chance to say their goodbyes.

But when the site makes the decision for a well known user to leave, the friends are powerless to properly say their goodbyes. It feels like something was stolen from them, and they had no control over it happening. Sure, you might be able to track down DM on another site and tell him he'll be missed. Heck, I'm sure he reads all the threads about him and has read everyone's kind words. Self indulgent prick.

But it really isn't about just saying goodbye. It's about users pouring their time and energy and emotions into this place. It's about what being a part of this community means for many of the users here. It is truly a social network that has become quite valuable to many users here. The people at the other end of the Internet typing all these messages are real. We all get that. Sure, a few users screw around a little bit , but we all understand that too. It can be a little annoying, but that is part of what makes this real. All the active forum posters have contributed to the atmosphere of this place. And when you contribute to something, it becomes valuable to you.

I know that, legally, Conquer Club can ban any user that they want for whatever reason they want. But I am not so sure that the admin of CC are thinking about how important the social network here has become to some people. I think the admin of CC should understand that the users here do invest time and energy and thought and emotions into making these forums interesting. The admin should try to understand that banning a valuable member like Dancing Mustard doesn't only hurt Dancing Mustard - it much more severely hurts the community as a whole. It makes many users feel powerless. It is not a good feeling. While the legal ownership of this site is not in question, I think the ownership of the spirit, of the non-tangibles, of these forums should be shared with the contributing users. I think users, as a whole, should be considered when making decisions that will have a significant impact on the atmosphere of the forums.

To the Admin: Okay, DM was a pain in the ass. He kept pushing your buttons. But who did it really hurt? Did you really get upset by his actions? Didn't you just kinda roll your eyes and think "What a knob!" and carry on? And if the forums were eventually devoid of all the pesky troublemakers like DM, don't you think that it would be really boring? Not only for the regular users, but for you too. We need diversity - that's what makes these forums worthwhile. Why take away a user that obviously makes the forums interesting for a lot of users?

DM did not do anything that was detrimental to CC. In fact, he did a lot to make it an interesting place.

I just read something in another thread that said something to the effect that any change in policies and procedures will not be effective retroactively. I have to ask: Why?

Clear the slate. Don't just bring back DM. Bring back all the other users that were banned due to their actions in the forums (people that cheat in the game should stay banned, of course). Start fresh. Clearly define what is off limits and could result in a permanent ban (and this should be only the worst types of offenses). Continue with 24 hour and 3 day and week long bans for the petty stuff. And don't think of it all as such a chore - it's really all part of the fun.

Clear the slate. Start fresh. Your users will love you for it.

[Strife]

I was going to read that but stopped less than half way. It just couldn't keep my interest. Would someone be so kind as to sum this up for me, if not was the emotional stuff the whole thing?

Thanks,
Strife.

[Mr Changsha]

Luckily some of us can handle more than one hundred words at a time.

Good summing up of the situation and I particuarly enjoyed the 'self-indulgent prick' line. However, aren't we all? You seriously wouldn't have got huge pleasure out of reading about yourself for hours, prowler?

I've written all I am going to on DM, but I would hope that the administration of this site will seriously consider what you and many others have written on the subject. I think we've all been quite civilised about the whole thing and I'd hope that when it seems about 95% of the community that posted disagreed with the decision, and disagreed the process that led up to the decision, that the admin. will not continue with their 'We are right and you're all wrong' line they seem to be going with.

[Woodruff]

Ok. Dancing Mustard was permanently banned. He was a character that evoked a range of emotions from anger and frustration to happiness and contentment. (I'm only going by the messages in threads about him - I don't even remember the guy).
There has been an outcry over his banning. People are getting emotional. Very emotional. It's kinda gay.
I got to thinking, about 2 minutes ago...why are people so emotionally involved? Why are people feeling so victimized by Conquer Club?

Just off the top of my head:

1) Real friendship, as you allude to in your post. People do make real friendships from time to time on online sites such as this.
2) A sense of justice. Most of the outcry is due to a percieved injustice. This ties in not only to wanting fairness for the individual concerned but also a bit of concern on the part of those who behave similarly that they may be next to experience that injustice.

But it really isn't about just saying goodbye. It's about users pouring their time and energy and emotions into this place. It's about what being a part of this community means for many of the users here. It is truly a social network that has become quite valuable to many users here. The people at the other end of the Internet typing all these messages are real. We all get that. Sure, a few users screw around a little bit , but we all understand that too. It can be a little annoying, but that is part of what makes this real. All the active forum posters have contributed to the atmosphere of this place. And when you contribute to something, it becomes valuable to you.

Absolutely this is true.

I know that, legally, Conquer Club can ban any user that they want for whatever reason they want. But I am not so sure that the admin of CC are thinking about how important the social network here has become to some people. I think the admin of CC should understand that the users here do invest time and energy and thought and emotions into making these forums interesting. The admin should try to understand that banning a valuable member like Dancing Mustard doesn't only hurt Dancing Mustard - it much more severely hurts the community as a whole. It makes many users feel powerless. It is not a good feeling. While the legal ownership of this site is not in question, I think the ownership of the spirit, of the non-tangibles, of these forums should be shared with the contributing users. I think users, as a whole, should be considered when making decisions that will have a significant impact on the atmosphere of the forums.

Agreed...this is almost always an intelligent move on the part of any business.

DM did not do anything that was detrimental to CC. In fact, he did a lot to make it an interesting place.
I just read something in another thread that said something to the effect that any change in policies and procedures will not be effective retroactively. I have to ask: Why?

Two possible reasons that I can think of:
1) Fear of creating a perception of weakness on the part of the mods. (I'm not sure that would happen, but I can see it as a reason.)
2) That would require admitting a mistake was made.

Clear the slate. Don't just bring back DM. Bring back all the other users that were banned due to their actions in the forums (people that cheat in the game should stay banned, of course). Start fresh. Clearly define what is off limits and could result in a permanent ban (and this should be only the worst types of offenses). Continue with 24 hour and 3 day and week long bans for the petty stuff. And don't think of it all as such a chore - it's really all part of the fun.
Clear the slate. Start fresh. Your users will love you for it.

I don't see this as necessarily a bad suggestion, but I am of the opinion that a 1-week ban as the longest is not sufficient. It's simply not long enough for it to "hurt" enough for some folks to reconsider their actions.

I've written all I am going to on DM, but I would hope that the administration of this site will seriously consider what you and many others have written on the subject. I think we've all been quite civilised about the whole thing

All? <grin>

[Fircoal]

Ok. Dancing Mustard was permanently banned. He was a character that evoked a range of emotions from anger and frustration to happiness and contentment. (I'm only going by the messages in threads about him - I don't even remember the guy).
There has been an outcry over his banning. People are getting emotional. Very emotional. It's kinda gay.
I got to thinking, about 2 minutes ago...why are people so emotionally involved? Why are people feeling so victimized by Conquer Club?

Just off the top of my head:

1) Real friendship, as you allude to in your post. People do make real friendships from time to time on online sites such as this.

It very much does happen. I know this from personal experience. A lot of it. XD

Clear the slate. Don't just bring back DM. Bring back all the other users that were banned due to their actions in the forums (people that cheat in the game should stay banned, of course). Start fresh. Clearly define what is off limits and could result in a permanent ban (and this should be only the worst types of offenses). Continue with 24 hour and 3 day and week long bans for the petty stuff. And don't think of it all as such a chore - it's really all part of the fun.
Clear the slate. Start fresh. Your users will love you for it.

I don't see this as necessarily a bad suggestion, but I am of the opinion that a 1-week ban as the longest is not sufficient. It's simply not long enough for it to "hurt" enough for some folks to reconsider their actions.

He said for the petty stuff, so I believe he mean that for things like DM did his bans should say low, while for big things large bans can be given out.

Also I think the opening post, is very well written and true. :3

[john9blue]

Pretty good post Prowler. I do think that there should be a few more rungs in the "ban ladder" before reaching permanent. I also think that, to get permanent, you have to do something really bad. Not just your average trolling/insulting another player. However, I don't think people give enough credit to the admins for having a relatively lenient policy here. There's no word filter, and some forums I've visited kick people out after 2/3 flaming posts.

[b.k. barunt]

f*ck me running. I don't quite know how to say this, but prowler has actually made a good thread! This is a historical fooking first! And he did it in spite of his deep seated resentment for Dancing Mustard. Very well written (though of course a bit wordy) and very discerning. I'm in shock.

This is a very civil thread, so i'll keep my anger and disgust at andydufresne in check. There's not much to add to here except to make note of one point. Everyone is for some reason skirting the key issue here, which is of course the bucks. That is the only motivation i see on lack or andy's part.

It is obvious by now that they could care less whether we have an interesting forum or not - how often have you seen either on the forums? They figured it would be the most fiscally wise thing to do to get rid of the "riffraff" on the forums, and keep them family-friendly. This sounds wise if you give it no serious thought - brilliant idea!

Unfortunately the facts betray the ignorance. Family friendly does not make for an interesting forum. Think about it. And if it's not interesting no one's gonna go to it. This site, while based on a great idea and successfully put together technologically, is losing popularity when it should be at its peak. Maybe the forums have nothing to do with this, but if not, what's the other problem with the site? No, don't go into the bullshit about "the economic crisis" and other outside variables which really have little if anything to do with a free game site - what other problems on this site are causing half the disruntled members that the banning bullshit is? Any rebuttals here from andyboy?


Honibaz

[b.k. barunt]

However, I don't think people give enough credit to the admins for having a relatively lenient policy here. There's no word filter, and some forums I've visited kick people out after 2/3 flaming posts.

Brilliant plan there john, if your intention is to brownnose in a rather obsequious manner rather than give consideration to what you say. I'm sure we could find a number of forums where this is true - so fooking what? I've visited places where there were occasional snakes and scorpions in the hut where i slept, so i should pat my landlord on the back if all i have is roaches?

Lenient policy my ass. Forum activity is almost halved right now from a year ago - when you keep banning posters who generate activity, it's kinda like Newton's Law. What goes up must come down. Don't give it enough juice and it won't run. Keep this shit up and all you'll have left are the brown nosers, but they don't start their own threads = you may have a problem there.


Honibaz

[DAZMCFC]

very good TP, but i'll take any bet that if you let them all back, norse would be banned within a week. RK would post porn and be banned aswell.


i think if all were to comeback my wife would be pissed off at me for spending too much time on here again.

[pimpdave]

2) A sense of justice. Most of the outcry is due to a percieved injustice. This ties in not only to wanting fairness for the individual concerned but also a bit of concern on the part of those who behave similarly that they may be next to experience that injustice.

We all behave that way, Woodruff. I've shown you how you could be construed to be "breaking the rules", even though what you were doing wasn't a problem at all, and if it was, was only bothering me, and if that's the case, I can put you on ignore.

[4myGod]

I am not afraid of being perma-banned, I am just afraid of losing interesting people from the forums who are perma-banned.

[Woodruff]

Clear the slate. Don't just bring back DM. Bring back all the other users that were banned due to their actions in the forums (people that cheat in the game should stay banned, of course). Start fresh. Clearly define what is off limits and could result in a permanent ban (and this should be only the worst types of offenses). Continue with 24 hour and 3 day and week long bans for the petty stuff. And don't think of it all as such a chore - it's really all part of the fun.
Clear the slate. Start fresh. Your users will love you for it.

I don't see this as necessarily a bad suggestion, but I am of the opinion that a 1-week ban as the longest is not sufficient. It's simply not long enough for it to "hurt" enough for some folks to reconsider their actions.

He said for the petty stuff, so I believe he mean that for things like DM did his bans should say low, while for big things large bans can be given out.

Ah, good catch...you're right, I missed that.

2) A sense of justice. Most of the outcry is due to a percieved injustice. This ties in not only to wanting fairness for the individual concerned but also a bit of concern on the part of those who behave similarly that they may be next to experience that injustice.

We all behave that way, Woodruff. I've shown you how you could be construed to be "breaking the rules", even though what you were doing wasn't a problem at all, and if it was, was only bothering me, and if that's the case, I can put you on ignore.

You've claimed that, yes...much like saxitoxin did. <smile> To claim that we all behave the way that Norse or Dancing Mustard did is honestly silly.

[Minister Masket]

However, I don't think people give enough credit to the admins for having a relatively lenient policy here. There's no word filter, and some forums I've visited kick people out after 2/3 flaming posts.

I've visited places where there were occasional snakes and scorpions in the hut where i slept, so i should pat my landlord on the back if all i have is roaches?

b.k does it again.

[JOHNNYROCKET24]

Ok. Dancing Mustard was permanently banned. He was a character that evoked a range of emotions from anger and frustration to happiness and contentment. (I'm only going by the messages in threads about him - I don't even remember the guy).

There has been an outcry over his banning. People are getting emotional. Very emotional. It's kinda gay.

I got to thinking, about 2 minutes ago...why are people so emotionally involved? Why are people feeling so victimized by Conquer Club?

I think possibly that over time, people start to feel an attachment to other users here. People actually start to care for others here and feel a real, true camaraderie.

Now, over time, most of these "online friendships" eventually end - one person or the other eventually decides to leave the site for one reason or another. But it is always under the control of the friends. If DM were to announce that he were leaving, there would have been a response - but his decision would have been respected and people would get a chance to say their goodbyes.

But when the site makes the decision for a well known user to leave, the friends are powerless to properly say their goodbyes. It feels like something was stolen from them, and they had no control over it happening. Sure, you might be able to track down DM on another site and tell him he'll be missed. Heck, I'm sure he reads all the threads about him and has read everyone's kind words. Self indulgent prick.

But it really isn't about just saying goodbye. It's about users pouring their time and energy and emotions into this place. It's about what being a part of this community means for many of the users here. It is truly a social network that has become quite valuable to many users here. The people at the other end of the Internet typing all these messages are real. We all get that. Sure, a few users screw around a little bit , but we all understand that too. It can be a little annoying, but that is part of what makes this real. All the active forum posters have contributed to the atmosphere of this place. And when you contribute to something, it becomes valuable to you.

I know that, legally, Conquer Club can ban any user that they want for whatever reason they want. But I am not so sure that the admin of CC are thinking about how important the social network here has become to some people. I think the admin of CC should understand that the users here do invest time and energy and thought and emotions into making these forums interesting. The admin should try to understand that banning a valuable member like Dancing Mustard doesn't only hurt Dancing Mustard - it much more severely hurts the community as a whole. It makes many users feel powerless. It is not a good feeling. While the legal ownership of this site is not in question, I think the ownership of the spirit, of the non-tangibles, of these forums should be shared with the contributing users. I think users, as a whole, should be considered when making decisions that will have a significant impact on the atmosphere of the forums.

To the Admin: Okay, DM was a pain in the ass. He kept pushing your buttons. But who did it really hurt? Did you really get upset by his actions? Didn't you just kinda roll your eyes and think "What a knob!" and carry on? And if the forums were eventually devoid of all the pesky troublemakers like DM, don't you think that it would be really boring? Not only for the regular users, but for you too. We need diversity - that's what makes these forums worthwhile. Why take away a user that obviously makes the forums interesting for a lot of users?

DM did not do anything that was detrimental to CC. In fact, he did a lot to make it an interesting place.

I just read something in another thread that said something to the effect that any change in policies and procedures will not be effective retroactively. I have to ask: Why?

Clear the slate. Don't just bring back DM. Bring back all the other users that were banned due to their actions in the forums (people that cheat in the game should stay banned, of course). Start fresh. Clearly define what is off limits and could result in a permanent ban (and this should be only the worst types of offenses). Continue with 24 hour and 3 day and week long bans for the petty stuff. And don't think of it all as such a chore - it's really all part of the fun.

Clear the slate. Start fresh. Your users will love you for it.

I read the first and last sentence only. That all I needed to read. I say keep them all banned and support the mods !

[jiminski]

I ............................................!

read the first and last characters ^^ .. that was all which was needed

[PLAYER57832]

I think TheProwler was close, but not quite "on" two real issues.

First, yes, we do have our own sort of community here. People log on to see certain online personna, read them, debate them, etc. Seeing someone leave does leave a "hole".

However, I think the bigger part of this is not so much even about DM, per se. That is, I liked DM, generally. I also know he thought challenging the mods, etc "fun"... and sometimes it showed perhaps a bit too much. On the one hand, it is easy for me to see the real harm in what he did. On the other... I am a parent, can easily compare him to the kid who is constantly pushing, pushing, pushing every button, often not even necessarily causing direct problems himself, but .. instigating. And, I also know that there is a fine line between not letting the kids get to you, letting things roll over so they don't become huge issues and letting things get truly out of hand. The bottom line in a family is that the parent gets to decide the boundaries. Here, it is the mods/Lack.

So, the REAL issue, is not so much about DM, its about those boundaries. Are they really where they ought to be or is there too much "nitpicking", too much not letting things slide that really don't cause much harm? Its about who gets to decide how these forums should operate.

One of the foundations of CC, one of the things that attracts people here is the user input. Want to try designing a map or new game style? Go for it! Etc. To a point, this has extended to the forums. I am not active in other forums, but it does seem that there are a lot of different discussion groups, etc. here. Sometimes we forget that this is not really a "free and open" venue, that it really and truly is a business. And, sometimes we forget what that means.

Two observations. First, conservatives (on a whole) tend to complain, be far less willing to listen to other ideas than moderates. I say moderates, because I don't see many true Liberals here. (and yes, true liberals can be quite bone-headed). A couple who posted in the PETA thread probably qualify (though they listened). I am close but I am actually fairly conservative in many ways.

I put Lunns forward as a prime example. I am probably still on his foe list. Why? Because I disagree with his ideas, and challange him openly on them. That is unfortunate, but it is what it is. Note, there are plenty of conservatives who are willing to listen, etc. However, on CC, whether because conservatives just so heavily outweight moderates, or are just more willing to post in forum or whatever, there has been a noticeably large conservative contingent.

A few months back, this was very evident to many of us who are, while not liberal, not conservative. I think it was noticeable to those conservatives who like open debate as well. I don't believe, as some did, that it was necessarily intentional. That is, I think there were more complaints against liberals. The mods, I believe, had more pressure to take action against liberals than others. Not necessarily pressure from Lack, but pressure.

HOWEVER, recently, this has begun to change. In the past couple of months, I have made statements that likely would have gotten me censored before, but which brought no official mention. Partly its because, with a couple of absolutely admitted exceptions, I keep things "polite". I disagree with people, absolutely, but don't resort to names, etc. I also think those who really objected to certain things have more or less vacated the main forum and tend to stay with debates in the private forums, where they can communicate "just" with people who more closely approach their own views.

Anyway, as usual this has gotten longer than I had hoped.

But basically, I see this as a debate over how much user input the forums should have.

[JoshyBoy]

Give the people what they want.

C'mon listen to what your PAYING CUSTOMERS are asking for.

[Woodruff]

Give the people what they want.
C'mon listen to what your PAYING CUSTOMERS are asking for.

"Paying customers" is quite a large group of people. While I think it's fair to say that all of us want a site that takes our concerns into account and we have a voice in how it's run, I can definitely say that I do not in any way want what some of the other premium users want, as regards the forums.

[Kelshir]

Someone got banned? Yawn, who cares.

Deal with and follow the rules or move on to another forum.

[Strife]

Someone got banned? Yawn, who cares.

Deal with and follow the rules or move on to another forum.

Out of curiosity, of all the places to make your first posts, why this thread? A thread about someone you don't know and who was banned for reasons you don't know. Sorry, but this strikes me as odd that someone who is clearly ignorant of the situation would post such an oblivious statement.

[mpjh]

Paranoia strikes deep
into your heart it will creep....

[PLAYER57832]

Give the people what they want.
C'mon listen to what your PAYING CUSTOMERS are asking for.

"Paying customers" is quite a large group of people. While I think it's fair to say that all of us want a site that takes our concerns into account and we have a voice in how it's run, I can definitely say that I do not in any way want what some of the other premium users want, as regards the forums.

And what those who are vocal now want is not necessarily what administration want.

If people come to a forum and don't see what they like, they tend to leave.

[john9blue]

Well these are the same people who say "suck it up, cupcake" whenever someone gets flamed. Now they're bitching to the mods because they can't understand how other people can be hurt by what DM says, and how bad he can make the forums look.

Suck it up, hypocrites- your "hero" got banned. Maybe for too long, but it still happened.

[Kelshir]

Someone got banned? Yawn, who cares.

Deal with and follow the rules or move on to another forum.

Out of curiosity, of all the places to make your first posts, why this thread? A thread about someone you don't know and who was banned for reasons you don't know. Sorry, but this strikes me as odd that someone who is clearly ignorant of the situation would post such an oblivious statement.

I have actually read nearly every post regarding this banning (I am on vacation and bored). I find it funny that so many people are fussing over someone getting banned.

I have read the reasons posted and honestly on most other forums dancing mustard more than likely would have been banned long ago.

Do I know dancing mustard personally? No. Have I ever talked to him/her? No. Do I care to? No.

Can I have an opinion on the issue based on the information given? Yes. Do I have an opinion? Yes.

Do not like the fact that I posted? Deal with it, until I am banned I can post, this is a public forum. Want some privacy? Make a private forum to go cry at.

[owenator]

Someone got banned? Yawn, who cares.

Deal with and follow the rules or move on to another forum.

Out of curiosity, of all the places to make your first posts, why this thread? A thread about someone you don't know and who was banned for reasons you don't know. Sorry, but this strikes me as odd that someone who is clearly ignorant of the situation would post such an oblivious statement.

I have actually read nearly every post regarding this banning (I am on vacation and bored). I find it funny that so many people are fussing over someone getting banned.

I have read the reasons posted and honestly on most other forums dancing mustard more than likely would have been banned long ago.

Do I know dancing mustard personally? No. Have I ever talked to him/her? No. Do I care to? No.

Can I have an opinion on the issue based on the information given? Yes. Do I have an opinion? Yes.

Do not like the fact that I posted? Deal with it, until I am banned I can post, this is a public forum. Want some privacy? Make a private forum to go cry at.

What did you say? You wrote something? Yawn. Boring. Who cares?