The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

[WidowMakers]

Thousands of people? No, no much more than that. Most of the people actually. Follow the leader right? Good boy.


Honibaz

Not follow the leader, follow the rules. If there is a legitimate reason for breaking rules or rules are unfair then try to change then in a correct fashion. I don't believe any of the rules we have here are unfair or oppressive. Maybe some others do. Explain your case and bring it to the appropriate people.

If they still disagree and the rules are not how you like them there are two options:

1) Abide by them
2) Don't abide by them and risk expulsion from the rest of the people who do.

Some people just want to cause trouble to cause trouble. If that is the case, don't complain when the axe falls and you get busted.

WM

[jiminski]

This thread should be titled.
"The fundamental problem with people who always push the rules as far as they can and then get banned so they can complain about how the system is out to get them and not fair."

This web site is not a right. GET OVER IT. There are rules and if you don't like them then leave. You cannot compare this place to a store and offenses to shoplifting. Eventually if people , in the real world, do enough stuff they are put away, pay fines or penalties of some sort. Now I agree that if I shoplift 200 times, I will not be taken out of society, but I will have a real messed up life and most likely many court fees and issues. We can't do that here. Should we start charging offenders $$$? Should people be able to buy there way out of banning?

The problem with that is that avatars here are not real. The people are real, yes but if there is never any action that can separate them from the rest of us (banning) then there really is never any action that can keep a person from doing stuff. I have never been close to getting any sort of ban. You want to know why? I never try to push and see how far I can.

There are SOOOOO many levels of banning here that no one can claim it is not fair or that they were unaware or that they messed up once.
If you don't want to get banned, don't try to push the mods buttons by doing all the things that the guidelines say NOT to do. It is easy. Thousands of people do it every day.

WM

correct Window; we have no rights to anything in this regard and the site has no right to our custom nor our blind sycophantic obedience. *

somewhere in the middle lies what we can all stomach the other 'side' getting. But it should be the sites job to minimise this partisan drawing up of lines. At present it is only fueling the perception of sides. 'We' can meet 'us' in the middle but users have no power other than the hollow words they spout here. What we are angered by is that the deed is already done, so what middle ground is there to find? Being conciliatory here only benefits those with th epower who are being criticised by the side who has no power to change it!

Somehow a new fixed, accumulated system of bannings came in on the back of the Bigotry thread.
Flamewars was deleted as a joke and here, now! you are attacking us for voicing dissent over a one-off incident and the means by which it was executed. I found that when we met you in the middle in the Bigotry thread, (beautifully dealt with by Andy by the way) you shafted us, claiming dominion over all rulings in general and not just on Bigotry. You turn customer service into applying your own agenda .. clever but bloody infuriating!

when we do meet you to find constructive resolution you get sneaky and strip away some of our 'rights' and then play the "oooh you have no rights, its a Privately owned site get over it!" card .. Under these circumstances and with you playing us as you are, what the hell do you people think will happen? I'll tell you, as with now, people piss and moan due to their feeling of impotence. And some will exercise their only single right as you alluded to above .. they will leave.

* i will also say that you can not demand the style of our words either; if we wish to make analogies to express our feelings and draw you to our understanding, that genuinely is our right and one which you nor this private site can infringe upon .. Unless you wish to ban us all for using a shoplifting metaphor, which sadly, with the new 3 strikes your out method of rulings, is quite possible now!!!! Do you get it now!? this is not just stupid selfish winging it is important for all of us and the way the site works!

[pimpdave]

Thousands of people? No, no much more than that. Most of the people actually. Follow the leader right? Good boy.


Honibaz

Not follow the leader, follow the rules. If there is a legitimate reason for breaking rules or rules are unfair then try to change then in a correct fashion. I don't believe any of the rules we have here are unfair or oppressive. Maybe some others do. Explain your case and bring it to the appropriate people.

Please go back to page one and begin again, because you completely missed the point of this thread, McFly.

hey, did you guys know that you can play RISK on this site?

Hey, did you know that your post right there could get you a PERMANENT BAN from the site?

Seriously, look it up.

[Snorri1234]

Snorri, here are the threads that he was cited for:
racism/bigotry: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=48096
spam: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=69431
C&A spam: viewtopic.php?f=239&t=66477

A joke thread to liven up the forums should not be called spam. (Or racism for that matter.) Since you let nearly everyone else get away with the same things, (if you didn't off-topics would be dead right now), I really think those threads weren't locked for being spam but for being from Dancing Mustard.

As to logging into another account, yes, it was an unwritten rule before you guys got in trouble for it. However, it is a form of having a second account and account hijacking.

I know what was used as a justification but the fact is that we were busted for something not against the rules and harmless to the site. Add to that that we never even thought it would result in mod-action.

There have also been players busted for only using an account to be funny in the forums.

Not playing the game is now also against the rules?

That being said, he was pushing boundaries and limits for two years, if not longer, and the administrators have finally had enough.

Pushing the boundaries is now cause for banning?

[BigBallinStalin]

It's fine how it is. This website is just part of a larger game we play on a daily basis with others. Let the mods be as authoritarian as they like; and it's great to have someone calling them out on this. But, I wonder if the people who do get permanently banned, just didn't understand when to cool it. They get out of line, or take something to far, and a permanent ban is the result? Ok, fine. They're not good enough at pushing people's limits, then off they go.

I'm not sure if there is, but perhaps there could be an appeal process for unjust perma-bans? (Assuming there isn't already one).

[jefjef]

It's fine how it is. This website is just part of a larger game we play on a daily basis with others. Let the mods be as authoritarian as they like; and it's great to have someone calling them out on this. But, I wonder if the people who do get permanently banned, just didn't understand when to cool it. They get out of line, or take something to far, and a permanent ban is the result? Ok, fine. They're not good enough at pushing people's limits, then off they go.

I'm not sure if there is, but perhaps there could be an appeal process for unjust perma-bans? (Assuming there isn't already one).

Well they have administrative appeals via E-TICKET... We could also have premium member VOTING done in re of perma bans that are not due to criminal activity.. Let us paying players have a say. Atleast once. Then if the person does not fly right than ADMIN BAN would be absolute.

[owenshooter]

andy is now openly discussing changing perma-bans to 6 month bans in the suggestion forum. drop by:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=91722&view=unread#unread

change can occur, it just takes a community effort.-0

[nagerous]

hey, did you guys know that you can play RISK on this site?

I think they forgot... then again internets is serious business... and in the end of the day everyone just wants to fight. It is a vicious cycle on these forums, you'll learn if you post here more often.... an all out war between a bunch of flame-baiting players and the master baiters themselves the moderators.

[bedub1]

Unban wicked! She did way more to help this site than dancing mustard with the candle stick in the ballroom ever did. Okay, so she also trashed the place too once she was fired....has she finally left? Or is she still making multi's?

[Woodruff]

Somehow a new fixed, accumulated system of bannings came in on the back of the Bigotry thread.

I don't believe that's true, jiminski. The accumulated system was already in place. The Bigotry thread merely added a more severe "set" of accumulations in place for bigotry offenses.

[Woodruff]

Snorri, here are the threads that he was cited for:
racism/bigotry: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=48096
spam: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=69431
C&A spam: viewtopic.php?f=239&t=66477

A joke thread to liven up the forums should not be called spam. (Or racism for that matter.)

I tend to agree with you regarding spam (depending on the nature of it), but I would disagree very much on the racism point.

That being said, he was pushing boundaries and limits for two years, if not longer, and the administrators have finally had enough.

Pushing the boundaries is now cause for banning?

Now this is a real problem. "Skirting the rules" as Andy mentioned in the "ban PM" and this "pushing the boundaries" are NOT crossing the boundaries. Perhaps the actions warrant a reaction from the moderators...I can see that might be legitimate, but if that's the case then the reaction should be to CHANGE THE BOUNDARIES, not to punish someone for...not...crossing them.

[The Fuzzy Pengui]

Now this is a real problem. "Skirting the rules" as Andy mentioned in the "ban PM" and this "pushing the boundaries" are NOT crossing the boundaries. Perhaps the actions warrant a reaction from the moderators...I can see that might be legitimate, but if that's the case then the reaction should be to CHANGE THE BOUNDARIES, not to punish someone for...not...crossing them.

I haven't read through the whole thread yet, and will go back and do so (I was away this weekend). However, I believe that constantly pushing the rules is well within the current Community Guidelines. It's in giant letters right at the beginning before the guidelines go into specifics...Don't be intentionally annoying. Now I can't speak for other mods, or for the admins, but personally I think that someone that continually is pushing the boundaries is doing so on purpose (or intentionally); and to me that is very annoying. Although they may be playing around to see what they can and can't get away with, eventually it becomes a tiresome game of cat and mouse, get's annoying and tedious to deal with, and like I said...could easily be seen as intentionally annoying.

Back to starting off with the first page; not really sure why I started reading the last post first...

[Woodruff]

Now this is a real problem. "Skirting the rules" as Andy mentioned in the "ban PM" and this "pushing the boundaries" are NOT crossing the boundaries. Perhaps the actions warrant a reaction from the moderators...I can see that might be legitimate, but if that's the case then the reaction should be to CHANGE THE BOUNDARIES, not to punish someone for...not...crossing them.

I haven't read through the whole thread yet, and will go back and do so (I was away this weekend). However, I believe that constantly pushing the rules is well within the current Community Guidelines. It's in giant letters right at the beginning before the guidelines go into specifics...Don't be intentionally annoying. Now I can't speak for other mods, or for the admins, but personally I think that someone that continually is pushing the boundaries is doing so on purpose (or intentionally); and to me that is very annoying. Although they may be playing around to see what they can and can't get away with, eventually it becomes a tiresome game of cat and mouse, get's annoying and tedious to deal with, and like I said...could easily be seen as intentionally annoying.

I can absolutely understand the "intentionally annoying" deal. I guess my point is that should have been exactly cited. Instead of saying "skirting the rules", say "intentionally annoying". Because while it doesn't change the meaning at all, it DOES take away the complaint. Don't HAND folks a reason to complain about the ruling.

Back to starting off with the first page; not really sure why I started reading the last post first...

Undoubtedly because you know how brilliant I am. <rolling eyes>

[MeDeFe]

Snorri, here are the threads that he was cited for:
racism/bigotry: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=48096
spam: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=69431
C&A spam: viewtopic.php?f=239&t=66477

A joke thread to liven up the forums should not be called spam. (Or racism for that matter.)

I tend to agree with you regarding spam (depending on the nature of it), but I would disagree very much on the racism point.

The thread isn't even racist. It makes fun of religion, maybe (some of the fringe groups that other believers of the nominally same religion will often agree have weird views, most likely). To me it looks more like a study in absurdist mild trolling than any other conceivable forum offense, certainly not racism.

[Woodruff]

Snorri, here are the threads that he was cited for:
racism/bigotry: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=48096
spam: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=69431
C&A spam: viewtopic.php?f=239&t=66477

A joke thread to liven up the forums should not be called spam. (Or racism for that matter.)

I tend to agree with you regarding spam (depending on the nature of it), but I would disagree very much on the racism point.

The thread isn't even racist.

I was speaking in a general sense, not in regards to a specific thread. My point was that if a post is racism, then whether it is a joke or not is irrelevant.

[MeDeFe]

Snorri, here are the threads that he was cited for:
racism/bigotry: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=48096
spam: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=69431
C&A spam: viewtopic.php?f=239&t=66477

A joke thread to liven up the forums should not be called spam. (Or racism for that matter.)

I tend to agree with you regarding spam (depending on the nature of it), but I would disagree very much on the racism point.

The thread isn't even racist.

I was speaking in a general sense, not in regards to a specific thread. My point was that if a post is racism, then whether it is a joke or not is irrelevant.

Good, then we agree that DM is not guilty of creating threads or posts with racist content.

[Woodruff]

A joke thread to liven up the forums should not be called spam. (Or racism for that matter.)

I tend to agree with you regarding spam (depending on the nature of it), but I would disagree very much on the racism point.

The thread isn't even racist.

I was speaking in a general sense, not in regards to a specific thread. My point was that if a post is racism, then whether it is a joke or not is irrelevant.

Good, then we agree that DM is not guilty of creating threads or posts with racist content.

I wouldn't agree to it simply because I don't know. But I certainly don't know that he did it, no.

[MeDeFe]

I tend to agree with you regarding spam (depending on the nature of it), but I would disagree very much on the racism point.

The thread isn't even racist.

I was speaking in a general sense, not in regards to a specific thread. My point was that if a post is racism, then whether it is a joke or not is irrelevant.

Good, then we agree that DM is not guilty of creating threads or posts with racist content.

I wouldn't agree to it simply because I don't know. But I certainly don't know that he did it, no.

You quoted the post in which lancehoch gave an example of DM being racist/bigotted (first lance only said it was for being racist, when he provided the link it was "racism/bigotry") check the first one, there certainly isn't any racism and no actual bigotry that I could spot.

No wait, here it is: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=48096
That's the link to the thread where DM was allegedly being racist.

[4myGod]

Now this is a real problem. "Skirting the rules" as Andy mentioned in the "ban PM" and this "pushing the boundaries" are NOT crossing the boundaries. Perhaps the actions warrant a reaction from the moderators...I can see that might be legitimate, but if that's the case then the reaction should be to CHANGE THE BOUNDARIES, not to punish someone for...not...crossing them.

I haven't read through the whole thread yet, and will go back and do so (I was away this weekend). However, I believe that constantly pushing the rules is well within the current Community Guidelines. It's in giant letters right at the beginning before the guidelines go into specifics...Don't be intentionally annoying. Now I can't speak for other mods, or for the admins, but personally I think that someone that continually is pushing the boundaries is doing so on purpose (or intentionally); and to me that is very annoying. Although they may be playing around to see what they can and can't get away with, eventually it becomes a tiresome game of cat and mouse, get's annoying and tedious to deal with, and like I said...could easily be seen as intentionally annoying.

Why are the mods here? What is the point of having moderators? Are the moderators here for themselves or here for the other users?

You said "and to me that is very annoying". So what? I'm sorry but you are a mod, you are here to keep things in line for us, and unless the other members feel he is intentionally annoying to them nothing should be happening.

This site isn't here for the moderators. So people shouldn't be banned because mods are annoyed by them.

[clapper011]

Why are the mods here? What is the point of having moderators? Are the moderators here for themselves or here for the other users?

You said "and to me that is very annoying". So what? I'm sorry but you are a mod, you are here to keep things in line for us, and unless the other members feel he is intentionally annoying to them nothing should be happening.

This site isn't here for the moderators. So people shouldn't be banned because mods are annoyed by them.

I am sorry but mods are members before mods! We very much enjoy playing this game just the same as YOU and others. I rather take offense to that statement. We as moderators are members to just like you are. And what? because we are moderators our opinions do not count? This is becoming a vicious circle of just wanting someone to blame, who cares if the moderators and admin are players as well right?

[owenshooter]

This is becoming a vicious circle of just wanting someone to blame, who cares if the moderators and admin are players as well right?

then go over to the thread in suggestions about changing perma-bans to 6 month bans, where andy is now involved and actively listening and posting. this isn't a vicious cycle ("circle"), it is just the voice of the community rising up again, as it did for the change in bigotry guidelines. the escalating scale that was somehow ushered in with the change in bigotry guidelines, without notification to the community, is a real problem and it is now being addressed. come put your 2 cents in, clapper:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=91722&start=45

and i encourage anyone that is interested in this topic to come to the thread and voice your constructive criticism and on topic ideas. things can change, we just have to work together as a community. we have their ear, now it is time to work together...-0

p.s.-this isn't about blame, it is about fixing something that is harmful to the community.

[Woodruff]

The thread isn't even racist.

I was speaking in a general sense, not in regards to a specific thread. My point was that if a post is racism, then whether it is a joke or not is irrelevant.

Good, then we agree that DM is not guilty of creating threads or posts with racist content.

I wouldn't agree to it simply because I don't know. But I certainly don't know that he did it, no.

You quoted the post in which lancehoch gave an example of DM being racist/bigotted (first lance only said it was for being racist, when he provided the link it was "racism/bigotry") check the first one, there certainly isn't any racism and no actual bigotry that I could spot.
No wait, here it is: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=48096
That's the link to the thread where DM was allegedly being racist.

So he wasn't racist in that thread...that certainly doesn't mean he hasn't been elsewhere (note that I am NOT saying he has been). My response was to your statement that "DM is not guilty of creating threads or posts with racist content"...to which I simply do not know and thus my response to you. You seem to want to pin me down for ALL of his actions on that one thread.

Now this is a real problem. "Skirting the rules" as Andy mentioned in the "ban PM" and this "pushing the boundaries" are NOT crossing the boundaries. Perhaps the actions warrant a reaction from the moderators...I can see that might be legitimate, but if that's the case then the reaction should be to CHANGE THE BOUNDARIES, not to punish someone for...not...crossing them.

I haven't read through the whole thread yet, and will go back and do so (I was away this weekend). However, I believe that constantly pushing the rules is well within the current Community Guidelines. It's in giant letters right at the beginning before the guidelines go into specifics...Don't be intentionally annoying. Now I can't speak for other mods, or for the admins, but personally I think that someone that continually is pushing the boundaries is doing so on purpose (or intentionally); and to me that is very annoying. Although they may be playing around to see what they can and can't get away with, eventually it becomes a tiresome game of cat and mouse, get's annoying and tedious to deal with, and like I said...could easily be seen as intentionally annoying.

Why are the mods here? What is the point of having moderators? Are the moderators here for themselves or here for the other users?
You said "and to me that is very annoying". So what? I'm sorry but you are a mod, you are here to keep things in line for us, and unless the other members feel he is intentionally annoying to them nothing should be happening.
This site isn't here for the moderators. So people shouldn't be banned because mods are annoyed by them.

You should keep in mind that for the most part, the moderators aren't going to see a particular post unless it's reported by someone. So it generally isn't a case of only the moderator finding it annoying.

This is becoming a vicious circle of just wanting someone to blame, who cares if the moderators and admin are players as well right?

then go over to the thread in suggestions about changing perma-bans to 6 month bans, where andy is now involved and actively listening and posting. this isn't a vicious cycle ("circle"), it is just the voice of the community rising up again, as it did for the change in bigotry guidelines. the escalating scale that was somehow ushered in with the change in bigotry guidelines, without notification to the community, is a real problem and it is now being addressed. come put your 2 cents in, clapper:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=91722&start=45
and i encourage anyone that is interested in this topic to come to the thread and voice your constructive criticism and on topic ideas. things can change, we just have to work together as a community. we have their ear, now it is time to work together...-0
p.s.-this isn't about blame, it is about fixing something that is harmful to the community.

Well...for some folks, it definitely seems to be about blame. <smile>

As well, I'm pretty sure that escalating scale was already in place prior to the Bigotry decision. I'm sure I saw references to it previously (just not the harsher standards per the Bigotry offenses, which were added).

[notyou2]

I believe DM posted the converted to Christianity thread to incite debate. I dont find it rascist in the least. It is an opinion nothing more, stop trying to read into it what isn't there. Sure he did it to get people's backs up, so what. It certainly isnt bigotry, nor rascist.

This appears to be "silence the instigator before he causes more problems". Kind of like Nazi Germany, current Red China, North Korea, the list goes on.

Perhaps we need a game without forums. Oh yeah, then they would be banning us for "out of control game chat", "off topic infractions" etc.

C'mon Idi Admin, see the error in your ways and face the music....FREE MUSTARD

[mpjh]

Idi Amin, Nazi, Red China, North Korea -- isn't that a bit hyperbolic. After all DM is still alive and free to do what he could before, except post on CC.

[notyou2]

I'm talking freedom of speech............not death