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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:16 pm

4myGod wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
4myGod wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:Volunteering, for Conquer Club at least, is sometimes a difficult job---more often than we'd like it to be.


You have misguided thinking. Why is clapper considered a volunteer but owenshooter isn't?


This seems rather obvious to me...because clapper has responsibilities to the site and owenshooter doesn't. It has nothing to do with frequency of posting.

I got us some definitions of volunteer and volunteering:
1. A person who performs or offers to perform a service voluntarily
2. To perform or offer to perform a service of one's own free will.
3. To do charitable or helpful work without pay

Quite a few people on this site are volunteers. They offer services for free, they help without pay, a lot more than some of the mods I would say. Yet, they don't have all the extra perks of being a mod. Andy doesn't come into threads defending them, and if they make a mistake they get banned. If a mod makes a mistake they cover it up.


You have to be asked to be a mod and make a commitment. I don't know exactly how much, but its a pretty big commitment.

There are lots of people here who may pop in, answer some questions, offer various suggestions, lead usergroups, etc., not to mention the many who make maps (or just try). Some of those people have no desire to be a mod at all. Some were a mod and left. Some may be asked in the future, but have not yet been asked. It's one thing to make a comment here and there and something else to take responsibility for how the site functions (which is, essentially, what mods do, though at a lower level than admins)

Only mods (and admin) can shut down a thread, ban people, edit threads, etc.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:26 am

4myGod wrote:
It is a good step in the right direction, but I think it might be just a step, and by only one mod. It is good that you got an apology, but people like t-o-m get raped and then were left to cry alone in the shower. A lot needs to change around here I think. Right now mods are like people, having friends and people who they personally don't take offensive and other people who they take much more offensive. Thus the banning ends up being everyone they "think" is bad, because everyone is breaking the rules. Mods need to be more like robots, but they can't see that they are viewing things with a huge bias.



It is a step in the right direction. It was only one mod. It happens to be a quite popular mod.

I'd suggest there's a difference between t-o-m (whom I consider somewhat a friend) and I; t-o-m would be the first to admit he frequently broke rules, sometimes gloated about having done so, and definitely taunted. Admittedly, he added to maps, something I didn't do (Had begun to do so, but deleted all that stuff when I left before.) I only "broke rules" - and barely - when retorting to consistent aggravations, and I left when I realized I was starting to get gleeful about the idea of breaking rules just to "in your face, CC." I know from speaking with t-o-m that he'd had many warnings of what not to do, but continued to do whatever it was until Twill got totally fed up. I may be wrong, but I think they even rescinded his forum ban once, until he did whatever it was again. When I received an unjustified warning - unjustified in my mind because I never instigated - I obeyed it; continued to obey it even when those others ignored the warning, and even when those others did not get penalized as that warning said they would. I had private fits with the mods at the time, and left for a few months.... but I publicly continued to obey the warning, so I was never banned.

Now, today, I've received this apology from one of the mods who allowed stuff to go on for so long that it came to that sort of festering head.

The thing is, if one popular mod has realized an error in moderating tactics - per the mod, realized after other mods did some coaching - then, others mods who may be making similar errors can realize the errors of their ways, as well. They may be more willing to do so if credit is given where credit is due - and that's why I'm "trolling threads" with this 'mod apology' post every bit as much as I "trolled threads" with my complaint posts after I returned.

I put "trolling threads" in quotations, because on some of the threads where the complaint was a valid addition to the topic, I was accused of "trolling" because the complaint was a valid addition to more than one forum topic. Sometimes those who accused me of trolling also flamed me; and typically "both" of us were warned rather than the original harasser.

So.. is there more work to be done so that more people see "equal moderation"? Certainly. If I'd been banned because of this mod's tactics, and the mod now realizes errors were made with those tactics, would the judgement be reversed? Unlikely; history reflects that "bad moderators" may be 'fired' from their volunteer power tactics, but their original judgements stand.

For me, this first step, a personal apology from a previously-offensive mod, is a potential light at the end of a long tunnel. It gives me hope.

I'm not ready, yet, to re-purchase premium, start gathering more map-making notes, and re-invent the tournament ideas I'd prepared but trashed, but I'm closer to feeling like this is a community I wouldn't mind contributing to, than I was yesterday.

I don't expect mods to be robots; I expect them to be human. As part of their humanity, I want them to realize they can make errors, try to see where they might be making errors and - yeah, I know, a lot to expect - see them attempt to rectify some of those errors.

Site improvements I'd like to see (as discussed in other threads) include ways of trying to ensure any mod bias does not result in permanent wrongful bannings. In other words, i don't think minor mishaps should ever result in perma-bans, especially the types of minor things that others can get away with without penalty. I'd also like to see a ruling that any mods stepping in warn FIRST, only the original instigator; retorters warned only if they retort after the warning to the originator of whatever flack is occuring wherever. I think that would go a long way toward people thinking things are more fair. In other words, allow "defend an attack by attacking" posts until a mod steps in to do any defending; after that consider any nasty retorts, an attack. If that rule were established, it's very possible that t-o-m would never have been banned.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby 4myGod on Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:06 am

stahrgazer wrote:
4myGod wrote:
It is a good step in the right direction, but I think it might be just a step, and by only one mod. It is good that you got an apology, but people like t-o-m get raped and then were left to cry alone in the shower. A lot needs to change around here I think. Right now mods are like people, having friends and people who they personally don't take offensive and other people who they take much more offensive. Thus the banning ends up being everyone they "think" is bad, because everyone is breaking the rules. Mods need to be more like robots, but they can't see that they are viewing things with a huge bias.



It is a step in the right direction. It was only one mod. It happens to be a quite popular mod.

I'd suggest there's a difference between t-o-m (whom I consider somewhat a friend) and I; t-o-m would be the first to admit he frequently broke rules, sometimes gloated about having done so, and definitely taunted. Admittedly, he added to maps, something I didn't do (Had begun to do so, but deleted all that stuff when I left before.) I only "broke rules" - and barely - when retorting to consistent aggravations, and I left when I realized I was starting to get gleeful about the idea of breaking rules just to "in your face, CC." I know from speaking with t-o-m that he'd had many warnings of what not to do, but continued to do whatever it was until Twill got totally fed up. I may be wrong, but I think they even rescinded his forum ban once, until he did whatever it was again. When I received an unjustified warning - unjustified in my mind because I never instigated - I obeyed it; continued to obey it even when those others ignored the warning, and even when those others did not get penalized as that warning said they would. I had private fits with the mods at the time, and left for a few months.... but I publicly continued to obey the warning, so I was never banned.

I have not been here long enough to know the Twill situation, I am talking of t-o-m getting banned for a mistake on the mods part. Then they took it back.

stahrgazer wrote:I don't expect mods to be robots; I expect them to be human. As part of their humanity, I want them to realize they can make errors, try to see where they might be making errors and - yeah, I know, a lot to expect - see them attempt to rectify some of those errors.

I as well don't expect them to be robots, but to be like robots in the sense that they do not let personal feelings hinder their judgment. So that they do not turn a blind eye to some users and pull out the magnifying glass for others.

I hope you are right though, if this one mod is man enough to admit his mistakes perhaps the others can step up as well.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:08 pm

Alas...

I was wrong. The Andy-admin byline is continuing to be, "players should avoid," and "players should ignore," rather than, "Yes, Admin needs to address..."

Despite the evidence that a mod has admitted playing favs to a horrific extent.

Rather than institute changes that I know would've stopped the situation I refer to (that went on for 5 months before I got fed up enough to stop contributing to tourneys, newsletters, clans, and $$ to this site) Andy's sweetly suggested that if I can't love CC anymore, as it exists, perhaps I should leave.

Yup, yup, great community.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby 4myGod on Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:41 pm

stahrgazer wrote:Alas...

I was wrong. The Andy-admin byline is continuing to be, "players should avoid," and "players should ignore," rather than, "Yes, Admin needs to address..."

Despite the evidence that a mod has admitted playing favs to a horrific extent.

Rather than institute changes that I know would've stopped the situation I refer to (that went on for 5 months before I got fed up enough to stop contributing to tourneys, newsletters, clans, and $$ to this site) Andy's sweetly suggested that if I can't love CC anymore, as it exists, perhaps I should leave.

Yup, yup, great community.


I can see it now, going to McDonalds where some teenager treats you like crap, so you ask to see the manager and he says, "just ignore it. If it really bothers you, maybe you should just leave."

Thanks Andy! :(
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:15 pm

4myGod wrote:
I can see it now, going to McDonalds where some teenager treats you like crap, so you ask to see the manager and he says, "just ignore it. If it really bothers you, maybe you should just leave."

Thanks Andy! :(


Well, I do live in the county where a woman paid for Mcnuggets. It turned out, they were out of Mcnuggets, and the McDonalds refused to give her a refund.

The situation went nationwide because the woman called 911 about it.

Eventually, the McDonald's gave her a refund, an apology, and coupons for additional food on them; Further, the employees were going to be retrained to provide refunds if the product paid for, wasn't available. What happened with the court case because the woman called 911 Emergency for non-emergency stuff... I don't know.

In my case, I got an apology. I'm not asking for refunds or coupons, but darn, I really would like policies here that would prevent stuff in the future.

IF the site issued warnings for complaints, even if the complaints fall into "grey areas" that would limit the potential for mod favoritism. IF the site reduced penalties for minor offenses to exclude bans or excessive vacas; and IF the site changed penalties procedures so that only a repeated offense got any escalation (whereas a different type of offense started its own escalating scale), that would take care of the problem of people ganging up on someone for fun just to get the person banned. Further, IF the site went further to review older cases (on request) to see what fell into or out of those modified guidelines....

...I do believe that those three relatively minor changes to administration and mod methods would go a long way to reducing the majority of the complaints about partiality in discipline.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:46 am

Reviewing older cases, when it comes to Forum/Live Chat possible issues, would be nearly impossible to do efficiently.

If you come across people breaking the Community Guidelines, Report the Post or fill out a Cheating and Abuse Report, or send in an E-ticket. We really are honestly happy to review anything that comes in via those methods (as long as spurious reports are kept to a minimum).

We do our best to investigate issues before they get reported, but we've only so many eyes and ears, and that's where the rest of you come in.


--Andy
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:54 am

4myGod wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:Alas...

I was wrong. The Andy-admin byline is continuing to be, "players should avoid," and "players should ignore," rather than, "Yes, Admin needs to address..."

Despite the evidence that a mod has admitted playing favs to a horrific extent.

Rather than institute changes that I know would've stopped the situation I refer to (that went on for 5 months before I got fed up enough to stop contributing to tourneys, newsletters, clans, and $$ to this site) Andy's sweetly suggested that if I can't love CC anymore, as it exists, perhaps I should leave.

Yup, yup, great community.


I can see it now, going to McDonalds where some teenager treats you like crap, so you ask to see the manager and he says, "just ignore it. If it really bothers you, maybe you should just leave."

Thanks Andy! :(


Sadly, this happens all too often. If you want good help, you have to either get very lucky, train and supervise them and/or pay them better. (better pay tends to recruit those who don't need training on how to smile when you say "hello" and how to subtract $0.70 from $1.00)
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:56 am

AndyDufresne wrote:Reviewing older cases, when it comes to Forum/Live Chat possible issues, would be nearly impossible to do efficiently.

If you come across people breaking the Community Guidelines, Report the Post or fill out a Cheating and Abuse Report, or send in an E-ticket. We really are honestly happy to review anything that comes in via those methods (as long as spurious reports are kept to a minimum).

We do our best to investigate issues before they get reported, but we've only so many eyes and ears, and that's where the rest of you come in.


--Andy


I believe this is why most of us have said to let the community review and put forward candidates. Also,
Any review would only go back a couple of months, perhaps with exceptions when a mod has admitted or been found to have been highly biased. Anyone gone a year is unlikely to come back, I would guess.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:58 am

I'd rather see the community focusing their efforts on maintaining an eye on these current days, than looking back into history for infractions to punish people.


--Andy
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby Woodruff on Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:38 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:I'd rather see the community focusing their efforts on maintaining an eye on these current days, than looking back into history for infractions to punish people.
--Andy


I think you may have misunderstood...I don't believe anyone's wanting you to go back in history to look for infractions. I believe the request is to have you go back to review the cases of those who have been perma-banned (and really, only the recent ones), so that they could either be re-instated (if they've been banned for 6+ months) or put on the 6-month ban rather than perma-ban.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby notyou2 on Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:55 pm

Yes, thats more or less what I meant Woodruff
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby MeDeFe on Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:18 pm

Agreed, I didn't notice anyone clamoring for every old post to be reviewed so all infractions could be properly punished, but for cases where people have been banned to be reviewed. Particularly cases where people were banned by someone who was later deemed unsuitable in their function as moderator, but not only those.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby stahrgazer on Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:59 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:I'd rather see the community focusing their efforts on maintaining an eye on these current days, than looking back into history for infractions to punish people.


--Andy


My understanding is, no one's seeking people to be punished retroactively.

Those who want a few peoples' cases reviewed seem to be asking for a couple of banned peoples' cases to be reviewed for potentially 'too harsh' judgements or biased judgements.

Those looking to see the community focus efforts currently, are seeking admin to step up to the plate and do something to minimize improper judgements (for or against) or overly harsh penalties in future.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby owenshooter on Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:01 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:Reviewing older cases, when it comes to Forum/Live Chat possible issues, would be nearly impossible to do efficiently.

If you come across people breaking the Community Guidelines, Report the Post or fill out a Cheating and Abuse Report, or send in an E-ticket. We really are honestly happy to review anything that comes in via those methods (as long as spurious reports are kept to a minimum).

We do our best to investigate issues before they get reported, but we've only so many eyes and ears, and that's where the rest of you come in.


--Andy

translation - dancing mustard and all recently banned members, many of which were questionable, will not have their cases reviewed and have no chance of being let back in the forums...

is that what that means? just wondering...-0
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby Woodruff on Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:53 pm

owenshooter wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:Reviewing older cases, when it comes to Forum/Live Chat possible issues, would be nearly impossible to do efficiently.

If you come across people breaking the Community Guidelines, Report the Post or fill out a Cheating and Abuse Report, or send in an E-ticket. We really are honestly happy to review anything that comes in via those methods (as long as spurious reports are kept to a minimum).

We do our best to investigate issues before they get reported, but we've only so many eyes and ears, and that's where the rest of you come in.


--Andy

translation - dancing mustard and all recently banned members, many of which were questionable, will not have their cases reviewed and have no chance of being let back in the forums...

is that what that means? just wondering...-0


That's how I read it.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby notyou2 on Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:44 pm

Apparently so
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