spam spam and more spam

[TheProwler]

What's the big deal?

Few message boards tolerate flaming, but CC actually gave it a shot and created a place on it's forums to allow for such verbal jousting to run free. But it failed. Flames still occurred regularly all over the forums.

But now they occur more regularly. So it appears that while it wasn't a 100% solution, it was a partial solution. And since we don't have a better solution, bring it back.

Plus it was fun for some of us.

Any thread that has been moved to Flame Wars has been moved for a reason

Exactly, a mod had to delete or relocate the thread because in was inappropriate or had evolved into a pedantic pissing match of derrogatory exchanges between posters. Some posters may have mistakenly thought that flaming others was okay, since the thread would just get moved to Flame Wars anyways. It is that repeated abuse of the forums outside of Flame Wars that I believe directly contributed to it's demise.

You aren't a very good problem-solver, are you? If the mod making the move would comment on the fact that it is "not okay" to flame outside of Flame Wars, then nobody would think it were "okay".

Another, better option, would be to just lock the thread.

Then, if Flame Wars were back, the people could re-start the discussion in the appropriate forum.

-because it has already achieved a high level of freedom of speech and expression

Freedom of speech has never been the problem, it's how and where you express it that is.

Correct. So we need Flame Wars as an area to express things that are not appropriate in other forums. Fo example, when we think someone is a narrow-minded idiot.

Not that I have anyone in particular in mind....

So it has been honoured by being moved to Flame Wars.

You can't attach any merit to a thread that was deemed offensive or deteriorated into pejorative gutter speak to the point where a mod is forced to move it.

Errr...I just did.

TheProwler, doing the impossible since 2007.

Any thread that has been moved to Flame Wars has been moved for a reason.

You may have been a little confused when hearing the often repeated mantra "save it for Flame Wars"
but that should have also been your cue to figure out what forum you were posting in.

I was never confused about what forum I was posting in. That was someone else.

Isn't it ironic that you are confused?

Oh, I always found the posts that said "Moved to Flame Wars for ..." quite helpful. I'm pretty sure it always meant the thread was moved to Flame Wars. Did you find the English confusing?

Obviously not helpful enough for everyone, as many still had difficultly finding to the correct forum for flames, even after seeing many threads moved.

So what do you want to do? Shoot all the idiots?? Taking away Flame Wars hasn't solved that problem; in fact, it has made it worse.

It is a clear indication that people need a place to vent their frustrations.

Take an empty five gallon bucket and write CC on two sides of it --plus the names of all the people on this site who frustrate you-- with a permanent marker, then take it outside and kick it around a bit. You'll feel a lot better afterwards.

That's funny. You are obviously speaking from experience.

I hope you kept that marker handy - because if you mess with me, you're going to need a new frickin' bucket every week. Unless of course your kick is as weak as your arguments.

[Woodruff]

What's the big deal?

Few message boards tolerate flaming, but CC actually gave it a shot and created a place on it's forums to allow for such verbal jousting to run free. But it failed. Flames still occurred regularly all over the forums.

But now they occur more regularly. So it appears that while it wasn't a 100% solution, it was a partial solution. And since we don't have a better solution, bring it back.

I'm still convinced that the "more regular occurrence" of the flames has much more to do with recent bannings of popular members than the removal of Flame Wars.

[TheProwler]

"Convinced" is a pretty strong word. Probably too strong. But I'm not convinced of that. Hey, not a biggie. If we were talking in Vulcan, I'd probably make no sense at all....

Back to the topic at hand: Hasn't anyone connected the dots and figured out that all the recent bannings stem from the fact that Flame Wars isn't around? Some people (myself excluded) need a place to vent. Or else they do silly things.....and get banned.

It is starting to make so much sense....

[GENERAL STONEHAM]

"Convinced" is a pretty strong word. Probably too strong. But I'm not convinced of that. Hey, not a biggie. If we were talking in Vulcan, I'd probably make no sense at all....

Back to the topic at hand: Hasn't anyone connected the dots and figured out that all the recent bannings stem from the fact that Flame Wars isn't around? Some people (myself excluded) need a place to vent. Or else they do silly things.....and get banned.

It is starting to make so much sense....

There's no doubt and with overwhelming evidence, that all these b.s. warnings and bannings is a direct result of Flame Wars being gone. Even a pointed ear person should see that.

After the great minds of C.C. decided to eliminate Flame Wars, they went on a Great Crusade to push, shove, kick, coerced, spit at, thumb their noses, gas, knife, shoot, flame, troll and spam anyone who DARED to question the decision to get rid of Flame Wars.

Yes, they used all sorts pressure to eliminate any vestiges of Flame Wars. They brought in their cyber-thugs to troll, flame and spam anyone who dared voice their insignificant support of the return of Flame Wars. They decided to go after the regular posters of Flame Wars and placed a target on each and everyone of them. Yes, they basically rewarded anyone who flamed the supporters of Flame Wars. I called these individuals the Anti-Flaming-Flamers. These cyber-thugs did everything they could to disrupt threads involving any discussion of Flame Wars. This in turn brought in the Moderators, who in their good and wise judgement would close the thread and issue warnings and bannings to anyone who dared fight back against these Anti-Flaming-Flamers.

To this day, C.C. will continue to pay lip service to those who think the punishments that are issued are too severe, considering the supposed "heinous crime" that was committed. But, nothing will be done to those who have been victimized by over-zealous moderation. Each week someone disappears [Moderators like to call this VACATIONS] for petty things. Oh, we hear this and that and other things, that these individuals have received multiple warnings and had mini-vacations issued to them. But, are these individuals really dangerous to the community? Or, is it because it's a "US against THEM" mentality that seems to be the major force behind all these warnings and bannings, since Flame Wars has been gone?

Regards,
General Stoneham

[Artimis]

I love watching the moralistas of CC touting the removal of Flame Wars as a vast improvement to the forums, with oft repeated arguments that it took up too much moderation time to move threads, or encouraged flaming, or that it was filled mostly with repetitive derogatory slanging matches.

To every single one of the moralistas of CC I say this:

[Hypothetical Argument]
Imagine if I started to campaign for the removal of the Map Foundry....

I find the Map Foundry forum boring, repetitive and lacking in originality. I tried posting in there once and it failed to stimulate any interest in me at all. That forum is a massive turn-off and I don't want to be exposed to map making any more. I'm fed up of seeing map ideas advertised on the other forums in the signatures of users, who regularly engage in map making.

Can't they just make a social group and keep it to themselves, or start their own 'Map Making' forum away from CC so I don't have to put up with the sight of it? Let's face it, you guys don't add all that much to the site.

I would imagine a typical reply would sound something like this:
"Artimis, instead of whining about it how about you just don't enter the Map Foundry in the first place, no one is forcing you to go to the Map Foundry. Your weak input into the map making process will not be missed and we won't have to waste valuable forum space telling you where to get off. The Map Foundry has made a unique contribution and has played a significant part in making CC what it is today, removing the Map Foundry just because some users don't like it will just leave CC all the poorer, aesthetically speaking."
[/Hypothetical Argument]

So who thinks the above sounds utterly ridiculous?

Does it sound eerily familiar? - It should, because it's EXACTLY how you nay sayers sound to me when you whine on about how awfully boring, offensive and intrusive Flame War was and how it didn't really contribute anything to CC.

The truth be told, I do find the Map Foundry boring and I've only ever posted in there once(*NEW* CONQUER CRATER (Version 8 ) LAST PAGE. Draft checklist), as such I just plain avoid that forum because it holds no interest for me at all, which is the grown up and adult way to handle it.

Lets see if you can surprise me with a sensible reply instead of a generic shrill rebuttal.

[niMic]

"Convinced" is a pretty strong word. Probably too strong. But I'm not convinced of that. Hey, not a biggie. If we were talking in Vulcan, I'd probably make no sense at all....

Back to the topic at hand: Hasn't anyone connected the dots and figured out that all the recent bannings stem from the fact that Flame Wars isn't around? Some people (myself excluded) need a place to vent. Or else they do silly things.....and get banned.

It is starting to make so much sense....

There's no doubt and with overwhelming evidence, that all these b.s. warnings and bannings is a direct result of Flame Wars being gone. Even a pointed ear person should see that.

After the great minds of C.C. decided to eliminate Flame Wars, they went on a Great Crusade to push, shove, kick, coerced, spit at, thumb their noses, gas, knife, shoot, flame, troll and spam anyone who DARED to question the decision to get rid of Flame Wars.

Yes, they used all sorts pressure to eliminate any vestiges of Flame Wars. They brought in their cyber-thugs to troll, flame and spam anyone who dared voice their insignificant support of the return of Flame Wars. They decided to go after the regular posters of Flame Wars and placed a target on each and everyone of them. Yes, they basically rewarded anyone who flamed the supporters of Flame Wars. I called these individuals the Anti-Flaming-Flamers. These cyber-thugs did everything they could to disrupt threads involving any discussion of Flame Wars. This in turn brought in the Moderators, who in their good and wise judgement would close the thread and issue warnings and bannings to anyone who dared fight back against these Anti-Flaming-Flamers.

To this day, C.C. will continue to pay lip service to those who think the punishments that are issued are too severe, considering the supposed "heinous crime" that was committed. But, nothing will be done to those who have been victimized by over-zealous moderation. Each week someone disappears [Moderators like to call this VACATIONS] for petty things. Oh, we hear this and that and other things, that these individuals have received multiple warnings and had mini-vacations issued to them. But, are these individuals really dangerous to the community? Or, is it because it's a "US against THEM" mentality that seems to be the major force behind all these warnings and bannings, since Flame Wars has been gone?

Regards,
General Stoneham

Fight the power!

[oVo]

I love watching the moralistas of CC...

Who are these moralistas of which you speak and do you suspect they have a hidden agenda?

[Hypothetical Argument] [...] a sensible reply.

You're saying that --hypothetically-- if you were hungry but couldn't be bothered to go into the kitchen
and somebody else takes the time to bake a cake, you would eat it. Would you do the dishes?

They brought in their cyber-thugs [...] to go after the regular posters of Flame Wars
and placed a target on each and everyone of them.

A hit list and character assassin ninjas? If you can expose these covert operatives as the evildoers they are
maybe this horrific activity can be stopped.

[...] is it because it's a "US against THEM" mentality that seems to be the major force
behind all these warnings and bannings, since Flame Wars has been gone?

The truth of this statement is absolutely universal and yet exquisitely ironic.
Exactly who are "THEM" and why are they doing this?

[Artimis]

I love watching the moralistas of CC...

Who are these moralistas of which you speak and do you suspect they have a hidden agenda?

If you really need to ask that question then you're likely not one of them.

[Hypothetical Argument] [...] a sensible reply.

You're saying that --hypothetically-- if you were hungry but couldn't be bothered to go into the kitchen
and somebody else takes the time to bake a cake, you would eat it. Would you do the dishes?

If by this you mean would I be prepared to put myself out and help out after benefitting from the fruits of someone else's labour? Then yes I would.

The point I was trying to make was that while I don't get any personal enjoyment or satisfaction out of the Map Foundry, other people do. Just because I don't like the Map Foundry does not mean I should push for it's removal from the forums, such action would be deemed by the regulars of the Map Foundry as arbitrary and worthless drivel from an outsider that simply has not bothered to try and understand that forum better.

Ultimately I don't think the Map Foundry should be removed(even if I don't like it), it serves a purpose as Flame Wars did. As such I would even oppose it's removal if someone did get the nutty idea into their head to campaign for it to be removed.

I hope this clarifies my position for you.

[Woodruff]

I love watching the moralistas of CC...

Who are these moralistas of which you speak and do you suspect they have a hidden agenda?

If you really need to ask that question then you're likely not one of them.

Like oVo, I can't think of a single person that fits that bill. As well, you didn't answer either of his questions...is it because there is no answer?

[Artimis]

Like oVo, I can't think of a single person that fits that bill. As well, you didn't answer either of his questions...is it because there is no answer?

Go to the back of the class and read it again, Woodruff.

If by this you mean would I be prepared to put myself out and help out after benefitting from the fruits of someone else's labour? Then yes I would.

The point I was trying to make was that while I don't get any personal enjoyment or satisfaction out of the Map Foundry, other people do. Just because I don't like the Map Foundry does not mean I should push for it's removal from the forums, such action would be deemed by the regulars of the Map Foundry as arbitrary and worthless drivel from an outsider that simply has not bothered to try and understand that forum better.

Ultimately I don't think the Map Foundry should be removed(even if I don't like it), it serves a purpose as Flame Wars did. As such I would even oppose it's removal if someone did get the nutty idea into their head to campaign for it to be removed.

[Woodruff]

Like oVo, I can't think of a single person that fits that bill. As well, you didn't answer either of his questions...is it because there is no answer?

Go to the back of the class and read it again, Woodruff.

You can roll your eyes all you'd care to, but you didn't tell us who these "moralistas" are nor did you say whether you suspected they had a hidden agenda.

So I ask again (since you also didn't answer my question)...is it because there is no answer?

[Artimis]

You can roll your eyes all you'd care to, but you didn't tell us who these "moralistas" are nor did you say whether you suspected they had a hidden agenda.

So I ask again (since you also didn't answer my question)...is it because there is no answer?

So that's what you were referring to..... Very well.

I could answer that, except technically it would be breaking the rules for me to start naming names as it could be interpreted as flaming/flame baiting(I don't much fancy giving them an excuse), which would then draw more flaming and eventually get this topic locked and that's something I don't want. As for the hidden adgenda, isn't it obvious? They don't want Flame Wars back, therefore even though they rarely visited and had little to no input into it they're vocal in their opposition to its return(for a variety of motives).

Don't expect a quick reply now, I've got to go back to work, I'll get back home in about 3 hours.

[GENERAL STONEHAM]

I love watching the moralistas of CC...

Who are these moralistas of which you speak and do you suspect they have a hidden agenda?

If you really need to ask that question then you're likely not one of them.

Like oVo, I can't think of a single person that fits that bill. As well, you didn't answer either of his questions...is it because there is no answer?

Of course Woodruff, you wouldn't know all the players involved. You said it yourself, you may have only stumbled into Flame Wars once or twice.

Why do you even question what Artimis is saying? I'm no cheerleader for Artimis, him and I had an axe to grind with each other at the Flame Wars forum. At least he knows what he's talking about, while you are just trying to stir the pot.

Me thinks some of the "moralistas" are trying hard to get their names in color.

Regards,
General Stoneham

[TheProwler]

64 votes. 72% want Flame Wars back.

And I suspect that is a skewed statistic, as many of the Flame Wars supporters never set foot into GD and are not aware of the poll.

I think the people have spoken.


Was it a good idea to remove Flame Wars? Sure, maybe. As a test. An experiment. I mean, we could speculate all day on what effect Flame Wars had on the forums at large, but we would never really know for sure unless we had a real comparison: With Flame Wars versus Without Flame Wars. But now the experiment is over. The flaming in other forums has increased. The premium membership has dropped significantly. Many good posters have found themselves banned because of the frustration that comes from not having a Flame Wars forum to vent.

The results are clear.

Flame Wars was good for the community.

Let's stop (and start) being childish and Bring Flame Wars Back!

[Woodruff]

You can roll your eyes all you'd care to, but you didn't tell us who these "moralistas" are nor did you say whether you suspected they had a hidden agenda.

So I ask again (since you also didn't answer my question)...is it because there is no answer?

So that's what you were referring to..... Very well.

I thought that was rather apparent, given the chain of quotes.

I could answer that, except technically it would be breaking the rules for me to start naming names as it could be interpreted as flaming/flame baiting(I don't much fancy giving them an excuse), which would then draw more flaming and eventually get this topic locked and that's something I don't want.

Fair enough. Sadly, you're probably right about that, so I don't blame you. However, I suspect that list is in reality far shorter than you seem to believe it is.

As for the hidden adgenda, isn't it obvious? They don't want Flame Wars back, therefore even though they rarely visited and had little to no input into it they're vocal in their opposition to its return(for a variety of motives).

Well, hidden agendas aren't usually obvious, no. Sort of defeats the purpose. That being said, I'm having trouble coming up with more than a couple of names of folks who have been very vocal in their opposition to it's return. Perhaps if you just listed those who you believe have been particularly vocal about not having Flame Wars return, that wouldn't be seen as a flame...because I'm really curious as to who you believe these people to be.

[TheProwler]

Woodruff, you are obviously trying to do what you normally do when trying to derail a thread (because you are uncomfortable with the topic). You are turning the thread into a debate about something that can never be proven conclusively. But it will certainly lose people's interest to the point where they forget what this thread is about:

over the recent months since hyasri, and ka have ruled this ship, there is more spam than ever.

i vow to not post anywhere other than flame wars and an occasional c and a if given back fw.

this is a simple request, and hope to be heard.

Now, I made a recent post in an attempt to get back on topic. You are doing your best to try to bury the issue. Please refrain from using such dirty and dishonest tactics. I'll repeat the post now, because people probably missed it when trying to read through your spam.

64 votes. 72% want Flame Wars back.

And I suspect that is a skewed statistic, as many of the Flame Wars supporters never set foot into GD and are not aware of the poll.

I think the people have spoken.


Was it a good idea to remove Flame Wars? Sure, maybe. As a test. An experiment. I mean, we could speculate all day on what effect Flame Wars had on the forums at large, but we would never really know for sure unless we had a real comparison: With Flame Wars versus Without Flame Wars. But now the experiment is over. The flaming in other forums has increased. The premium membership has dropped significantly. Many good posters have found themselves banned because of the frustration that comes from not having a Flame Wars forum to vent.

The results are clear.

Flame Wars was good for the community.

Let's stop (and start) being childish and Bring Flame Wars Back!

[oVo]

I think the people have spoken.

True, sixtyfour votes clearly indicates that this is not a hot issue.

The flaming in other forums has increased. The premium membership has dropped significantly. Many good posters have found themselves banned because of the frustration that comes from not having a Flame Wars forum to vent.

The results are clear.

Good posters don't get banned simply because there is no flaming forum available here and I still haven't seen any evidence presented that shows Flame Wars to be good for this community.
Those results are also there.

[TheProwler]

I think the people have spoken.

True, sixtyfour votes clearly indicates that this is not a hot issue.

Already answered (try to pay attention):

And I suspect that is a skewed statistic, as many of the Flame Wars supporters never set foot into GD and are not aware of the poll.

The flaming in other forums has increased. The premium membership has dropped significantly. Many good posters have found themselves banned because of the frustration that comes from not having a Flame Wars forum to vent.

The results are clear.

Good posters don't get banned simply because there is no flaming forum available here and I still haven't seen any evidence presented that shows Flame Wars to be good for this community.
Those results are also there.

"...simply because..."

That is correct. It is a little more complicated than that (but not much). They used to have a place to vent their frustrations with people who are irritating (like, for instance, those who can't seem to read and deal with an entire post). I though I already said that....oh, I did:

Many good posters have found themselves banned because of the frustration that comes from not having a Flame Wars forum to vent.

So do I need to explain things further? They are frustrated, they post something either aggressive (a flame) or passive-aggressive (an inappropriate joke or something else frowned upon), and they get banned.

You need to learn to think for yourself a little OvO .

It really isn't too hard.

And try to read entire posts, and comment on them in their entirety. Got it, OvO ?

[oVo]

I read the posts. No need to explain further, content that was already moot. Nothing more to say
since you made no new points that might alter any existing opinions on the subject.

We've experienced both with and without flame wars and the results remain clear.
Flame Wars is gone.

[GENERAL STONEHAM]

Is it just me or does the repetitive postings by oVo and Woodruff sounds like someones' fingernails scratching down a blackboard?



Eeeeeeek,
General Stoneham

[Woodruff]

Woodruff, you are obviously trying to do what you normally do when trying to derail a thread (because you are uncomfortable with the topic). You are turning the thread into a debate about something that can never be proven conclusively.

I'm not trying to do anything of the sort, and what I'm asking for absolutely doesn't need to be proven conclusively because it's JUST HIS OPINION that I'm asking for.

Now, I made a recent post in an attempt to get back on topic. You are doing your best to try to bury the issue. Please refrain from using such dirty and dishonest tactics. I'll repeat the post now, because people probably missed it when trying to read through your spam.

I'm doing nothing of the sort. Stop trying to apply your typical motives to my posts.

Is it just me or does the repetitive postings by oVo and Woodruff sounds like someones' fingernails scratching down a blackboard?

I suppose those who can't tolerate someone disagreeing with them might find it that way. I'm sorry you can't handle it. All I've done here is ask someone to back up their own statements...that doesn't seem particularly repetitive to me, unless the individual continues to tapdance around avoiding it, of course.

Particularly when viewed in relation to all of the repetitive whining about the absence of FlameWars by...some folks.

[TheProwler]

I read the posts. No need to explain further, content that was already moot. Nothing more to say
since you made no new points that might alter any existing opinions on the subject.

We've experienced both with and without flame wars and the results remain clear.
Flame Wars is gone.

It is gone. The admin can reverse this once they conclude that it was better here with Flame Wars than without.

OvO , why do you care?

[TheProwler]

Woodruff, you are obviously trying to do what you normally do when trying to derail a thread (because you are uncomfortable with the topic). You are turning the thread into a debate about something that can never be proven conclusively.

I'm not trying to do anything of the sort, and what I'm asking for absolutely doesn't need to be proven conclusively because it's JUST HIS OPINION that I'm asking for.

Now, I made a recent post in an attempt to get back on topic. You are doing your best to try to bury the issue. Please refrain from using such dirty and dishonest tactics. I'll repeat the post now, because people probably missed it when trying to read through your spam.

I'm doing nothing of the sort. Stop trying to apply your typical motives to my posts.

Wow, the part in red is where you mis-quoted me. That is very cheap. I can't believe you've stooped so low so obviously. Normally you try harder to conceal your deceptions.

It's good to know the kind of (dishonest) person I am dealing with.

[Woodruff]

Woodruff, you are obviously trying to do what you normally do when trying to derail a thread (because you are uncomfortable with the topic). You are turning the thread into a debate about something that can never be proven conclusively.

I'm not trying to do anything of the sort, and what I'm asking for absolutely doesn't need to be proven conclusively because it's JUST HIS OPINION that I'm asking for.

Now, I made a recent post in an attempt to get back on topic. You are doing your best to try to bury the issue. Please refrain from using such dirty and dishonest tactics. I'll repeat the post now, because people probably missed it when trying to read through your spam.

I'm doing nothing of the sort. Stop trying to apply your typical motives to my posts.

Wow, the part in red is where you mis-quoted me. That is very cheap. I can't believe you've stooped so low so obviously. Normally you try harder to conceal your deceptions.
It's good to know the kind of (dishonest) person I am dealing with.

Oh give me a break...anyone following along can EASILY see that I simply screwed up the quoting when I was doing the post. That's CLEARLY me talking, since you weren't asking for anyone's opinion. However, I am now going back and fixing it, so I do appreciate you pointing it out (you see, unlike some, I have no problem standing by my statements). But please...YOU'RE clearly the one trying to be dishonest here, and you're only making yourself look bad by doing so.

[TheProwler]

Back peddle all you want. You know what you tried to do. And you know what you are doing.

Clouding
the
issue.

The experiment is over. Flame Wars should be reinstated. I know why you are afraid, Woodruff.