[Official] Germany Revamp

[lanyards]

1.5 years for you all to whine and bitch about how this revamp looks.

In my oppinion it looks much better.

Well done Pep.

[kratos644]

1.5 years for you all to whine and bitch about how this revamp looks.

In my oppinion it looks much better.

Well done Pep.

I don't check the cartography forum until I actually find something I have a complaint with

[sully800]

I do think the appearance of the new map is much better, but I also understand why many people are having difficulty playing on the new one due to the colors.

Let's give pep credit - not only has he done a ton of work on the map itself, but he is also fielding everyone's inquiries and listening and he is going to change the map. Meanwhile, people come after him with pitchforks and many simply complain without offering any constructive criticism. It is fine if there are things you don't like, but help to improve the map instead of simply complaining.

I think you are definitely on the right track here Pep. Light/dark splotches beneath the coordinates, a simpler font, and a greater contrast between the bonus regions will all help to make the map easier to play on. Visually it might go against some of the current principles you tried to capture in your current edition, but if it makes playing easier it is worth it. I'm sure you are very frustrated right now because you would have made any of these changes months ago if people had voiced their opinions then. Alas, that is the nature of the beast when you are dealing with revamps. Even WM gets crap for his Montreal from time to time and that map looks visually identical to the original, just cleaner!

[owenshooter]

I suggest people start following especially revamp threads if they enjoy the map being revamped, so that they don't get dissappointed when it does finally go up for beta play. A classic example of why more people should come in the foundry and look at threads that interest them

it was swapped in for the old germany map. there was no beta transition. the beta was added by lack after jbrettlip voiced his concerns with the suggs forum. soooo, let's keep it all straight. it was not BETA, it simply took over the old map slot, mid-game for me, and is just an abomination... again, are you serious that THE RHINE is not an important natural barrier/landmark of deutschland? i grew up mostly in frankfurt and neu ulm, and have a pretty good grasp of germany, it's culture, and it's landmarks and natural borders... it is embarassing that one of the first things you think of when you think of germany, is not on the map... seriously, no rhine river? and every other concern i have has been voiced by myself and many others countless times, so i will save everyones time and just end this post...-0

p.s.-i thought when they moved the foundry above the general discussions and almost at the top of the forum list, this stuff was going to be avoided with the increased flow of traffic to the foundry... *cough* *cough*

[pepperonibread]

I do think the appearance of the new map is much better, but I also understand why many people are having difficulty playing on the new one due to the colors.

Let's give pep credit - not only has he done a ton of work on the map itself, but he is also fielding everyone's inquiries and listening and he is going to change the map. Meanwhile, people come after him with pitchforks and many simply complain without offering any constructive criticism. It is fine if there are things you don't like, but help to improve the map instead of simply complaining.

I think you are definitely on the right track here Pep. Light/dark splotches beneath the coordinates, a simpler font, and a greater contrast between the bonus regions will all help to make the map easier to play on. Visually it might go against some of the current principles you tried to capture in your current edition, but if it makes playing easier it is worth it. I'm sure you are very frustrated right now because you would have made any of these changes months ago if people had voiced their opinions then. Alas, that is the nature of the beast when you are dealing with revamps. Even WM gets crap for his Montreal from time to time and that map looks visually identical to the original, just cleaner!

Thanks sully. It's a bit tough to alter that "grand artistic vision" which I'd formed in my head, but I think I'll make it

I suggest people start following especially revamp threads if they enjoy the map being revamped, so that they don't get dissappointed when it does finally go up for beta play. A classic example of why more people should come in the foundry and look at threads that interest them

it was swapped in for the old germany map. there was no beta transition. the beta was added by lack after jbrettlip voiced his concerns with the suggs forum. soooo, let's keep it all straight. it was not BETA, it simply took over the old map slot, mid-game for me, and is just an abomination... again, are you serious that THE RHINE is not an important natural barrier/landmark of deutschland? i grew up mostly in frankfurt and neu ulm, and have a pretty good grasp of germany, it's culture, and it's landmarks and natural borders... it is embarassing that one of the first things you think of when you think of germany, is not on the map... seriously, no rhine river? and every other concern i have has been voiced by myself and many others countless times, so i will save everyones time and just end this post...-0

p.s.-i thought when they moved the foundry above the general discussions and almost at the top of the forum list, this stuff was going to be avoided with the increased flow of traffic to the foundry... *cough* *cough*

I think sam was inadvertently using the "beta play" term interchangeably with "live play", and that the point of his post in fact had little to do with whether the beta tag was initially used. In any case, I'd rather not start that discussion again, as lack has recognized his original loading of the map to be a mistake:

Actually I intentionally did not load the Germany 2 as Beta. I figured it would confuse people who wanted to play a Germany game if the map suddenly dissappeared from its usual alphabetical spot. But after reading all this controversy, which reminds me that REVAMPS tend to be very controversial, I think I made a mistake. I'm going to set it as Beta right now.

As for not changing the map mid-game (making a REVAMP apply only to new games) - that would either require significant coding or splitting our Germany games into two maps for a very long time which has some undesireable side effects. So although I agree it can be annoying for a map to drastically change mid-game, there is unfortunately not much worth doing about it.

Anyway, I'd venture to say that a map transition like this is going to generate controversy however it is done.
As for the issue with the Rhine, I think my post from the old suggs and bugs thread can clear that up:

http://cheeseperi.free.fr/Jeopardy/culture/rhine.gif

As you can see from this image, the Rhine makes it's way first along the southwest border of Germany, a place where it would just add clutter to the map. It then does cut through Germany, in the light-red area of the revamped map (Rheinhessen). But it would serve no purpose there either, as it would be cutting straight through a continent. So I think it's fair to say that to add the Rhine to the map, however important a river it is, would be a useless addition - unless you want to change the map's basic gameplay.

And that's honestly the crux of the problem (this problem, and many other issues dealing with accuracy). I'll state right out that this map isn't an accurate portrayal of Germany. However, taking into account the fact that no gameplay could be changed whatsoever, I can certainly say that this map is much more accurate than the previous Germany 1.

[sully800]

Yeah, the complaint about the Rhine should be a complaint for the original map. Revamped artists are tied to the same gameplay of the original which is one of the reasons why it is such a difficult process. The original map shows the Rhine, but not in an accurate or sensible way. In fact the large inaccuracies of the original are one of the main reasons people wanted to have it revamped!

[waseemalim]

The new map looks gross. It hurts my eyes. Really.

I dont see how having similar colors for bonuses is even slightly helpful. I mean, there are better ways to symbolize the flag of germany.

I am not expecting feedback on this, just voicing my concern. I really dont have the time to check all foundry posts, so am dissenting only after I have seen the map.

[danfrank]

There is obvious discontent with this map... an antrocity in comparison to the original and yet with disapproval from the community the map still gets forged through.. I b
can begin to pick at all the things i do not like . just to sum it up.. A revamp is supposed to be an improvement and this map definitly does not reflect that..

The discontent you mention came up only after the revamp was quenched. So there's an essential problem here: Only by way of quenching a map could the foundry bring in the outside community to express their opinions on it. I'm reluctant to place blame on anyone in regards to this dilemma, as it has been argued about with every revamp and won't help us with anything here. However, neither can you place blame on the foundry for "forging it through" when nearly all voiced opinions prior to quenching were positive.

As for you concerns with the map, if you can come up with something specific I'll see what I can do with suggestions you might have, but right now unfortunately you haven't given me much to work with.

When I look at a map I always look at it from the view of I am a brand new person to CC and this is my first time on it. I can verify this quickly by asking for a friend's opinion on this map who does not play CC. Which is what I usually do. I ask him(different people) a series of quick questions and see how many he gets right or wrong or has trouble with. This time he told me those 2 yellow bonuses he could not tell apart much and the map was overall hard to read. I had to agree with him. He also noted that those slate areas were not great either.

So far, nonCCer's I've asked have had problems distinguishing the two yellow continents, and one had an issue with the font. And this is if they had any problems at all. As for the slate continents, to be honest I can't cross my eyes or blur my vision in any way that would make them look the same.

I'm fine with working on the font, and the similarly colored continents, as well as army number visibility issues in tough areas. But I'm very reluctant to revert back to the old color scheme. The current palette works very well aesthetically and thematically with the rest of the map: it works together well with the blue ocean and brown dead land, and of course it's the German colors. But more important than that, I think we need to give the noobs some credit here.

First of all, compare this map with some of the other maps that a noob might start out on. Some of the more complicated maps are exponentially more confusing than this one if we have to take everything from a new-player standpoint. Secondly, we've got two types of noobs here: previously R-I-S-K players, and those that have never played the original game. Seasoned players will have relatively little trouble after understanding the CC interface - I'd venture to say that anyone who has played the game before will look first toward prospective bonuses (boni?) prior to making a move. This leads them straight to the minimap, were they see that there are indeed six zones: after this they'll have little trouble distinguishing them. Then we have the double noobs, who haven't even tried the board game. For them... maybe I'm pessimistic, but I'm pretty sure that they're gonna get confused anyway - so that's kind of a lost cause.

Long story short, I'm confident that we can resolve many of these visibility issues while still keeping the color scheme. Essentially my point buried beneath all the rambling is that though "catering to new players/making maps clear" is important, at some point there's a tradeoff of art vs clarity and IMO reverting the color scheme would add no clarity that can't be added with other methods, and would take the aesthetics down a notch.

Off to bed for me.

Well all i did was scan the thread and not read to much into.. Well for the first 17 pages the foundry regulars were in there tickling your balls and patting you on the back.. It was not until bruceswar comment on page 17 that i saw a serious dislike for this map.. And then you did not even respond to him , it appears that another individual fought the war with him over the issues for you. your a coward in my book . The map is terrible , the colors are gross the territory labeling is hideous and the mountains are elementary. is that specific enough for you? i wonder why this map sat dead for so long. with the first cries of forge coming in november of 08..

[danfrank]

To Boot the brish isles revamp was truly a revamp , They took the original image and tweeked it. Now thats a revamp. The same with brazil another fine revamp. This map here is a NEW map all in itself. Nothing from the original image is left... I am curious what the original mapmaker has to say about this. you put his name on it and yet nothing from his original image is revised .....

[pepperonibread]

Well all i did was scan the thread and not read to much into.. Well for the first 17 pages the foundry regulars were in there tickling your balls and patting you on the back.. It was not until bruceswar comment on page 17 that i saw a serious dislike for this map.. And then you did not even respond to him , it appears that another individual fought the war with him over the issues for you. your a coward in my book . The map is terrible , the colors are gross the territory labeling is hideous and the mountains are elementary. is that specific enough for you? i wonder why this map sat dead for so long. with the first cries of forge coming in november of 08..

Let's try to get our facts a little straighter. Take the comment Brucewar first posted on pg. 17. Look just a bit farther down the page, and you'll see that I posted a response to him just two hours later:

Well, Incandenza and others hit virtually everything, I'll add to two things though. Foremost, no gameplay changes are being made to the Germany map, as I said earlier (see the "About the Revamp" quote in the first post of this thread for more info). That misconception seems to be where much of this revamp opposition springs from. All changes to territory names, shapes, and borders have been made to increase accuracy while preserving the original gameplay.
The other thing you mention is a revamp's effect on the site. I honestly believe that revamps are better in the long run for CC. The benefits of having enticing and/or interesting graphics on CC will almost certainly outweigh a few old members portraying the site in a negative light.
Last, for your individual comments:
1. This color scheme was decided on due to a certain lack of German flavor in the original draft of the revamp. It's been adjusted throughout this thread - to be frank, I'd venture to say that this aspect of the image has really already been agreed upon, save for some minor adjustments.
2. Which spot are you referring to? The territories Osnabruck and Munster do not border, if this is what you're talking about I could scoot the mountains over a bit to make the impassable more clear.
3. These were switched for accuracy's sake.
4. This revamp would replace the current Germany map.

Next you had the concern that this map had been sitting around since last year. I'm a student, so time for making updates during that period was unfortunately few and far between. That's why the map was only finally quenched this summer.

Regarding your concerns with the graphics, in the next update I'm hoping to adjust the colors and find a better font for the territories, both of which should clear up some of the current visibility issues.

To Boot the brish isles revamp was truly a revamp , They took the original image and tweeked it. Now thats a revamp. The same with brazil another fine revamp. This map here is a NEW map all in itself. Nothing from the original image is left... I am curious what the original mapmaker has to say about this. you put his name on it and yet nothing from his original image is revised .....

This revamp was create in an effort to fix two aspects of the old image:
1. Graphics
2. Accuracy
Of course, the changes to graphics are obvious. However, I think the increased accuracy of the image is what gives some the impression that this is an entirely new map. What you see is mountains and rivers moved around, borders shifted, and names added and switched. These changes were made to make the map truer to the actual German territory it represents. Nevertheless, under these overlying changes the gameplay structure is exactly the same. All the continent bonuses and territory connections are identical to the previous map. Essentially, though they look different on the outside, the "skeletons" of the two maps still remain the same. Hopefully this post I made a while back should clear up anything else:

Hey everybody. More than other maps, revamps like this have certain restrictions on how they are developed. One of the most important of these is that a revamp cannot change the "gameplay" of the map being revamped. Basically, which territories border which other territories and which continents they are contained in must remain the same as in the original map.

Take the dark gray continent Preussen (the red continent Prussia in the old map). If you take a look at the two maps, you can see that each territory on the old map directly corresponds to one territory on the new map. For example, Potsdam on the old map, bordering three territories of other continents and two in its own, is equivalent to Magdeburg on the new map, which has the same border configuration. Dresden on the old map, which borders three territories in its own continent, corresponds to Potsdam on the new map, which also has these borders.

Here are a few more examples to clarify:
Old map's Donrath = New map's Koblenz
Old map's Erfurt = New map's Zwickau
Old map's Augsburg = New map's Bayreuth
Old map's Niedersachsen = New map's Bremen
etc.

In this way, while names have been changed and border shapes have been altered, the gameplay of the map remains identical. So if I want to make the map more accurate, I have to make sure that there are no gameplay changes while I edit it.

If everyone could try and make sure that their suggestions don't break any of these "rules", that would be great

Lastly, you mention the British Isles revamp as an example of a "true revamp". But your original comments on the project say otherwise:

I have to agree.. They have ruined the british isle map and next there going to destroy the germany map..

viewtopic.php?f=358&t=35649&start=938

[danfrank]

There you go twisting words.. A true liberal. A vile attempt to discredit me.. You *sshole. I never said i like the british isle revamp.. But applied the meaning of the word to the result of the image. As i said your map is not a revision, or a reconstruction of an exsisting image.. You have a new image.. Not the old image revised.. Revamp would not apply in your case.. Its unique to you and has nothing to do with the original mapmaker.. Did the original mapmaker take pride in his image ? More so than if A could attack E. Because its obvious here your defending your image. After you destroyed the original.. Oh wait liberally you would call it a revamp and add the original author to it to give him some credit

[lanyards]

There you go twisting words.. A true liberal. A vile attempt to discredit me.. You *sshole. I never said i like the british isle revamp.. But applied the meaning of the word to the result of the image. As i said your map is not a revision, or a reconstruction of an exsisting image.. You have a new image.. Not the old image revised.. Revamp would not apply in your case.. Its unique to you and has nothing to do with the original mapmaker.. Did the original mapmaker take pride in his image ? More so than if A could attack E. Because its obvious here your defending your image. After you destroyed the original.. Oh wait liberally you would call it a revamp and add the original author to it to give him some credit

As required, the gameplay that the original mapmaker came up with is still the same in the revamp. The original mapmaker Hoff gets credit for creating the original map that this map was based off of. The revamp is only changing the map graphically, which is what all revamps do so how are you contrasting this revamp with the British Isles or any others?

[danfrank]

There you go twisting words.. A true liberal. A vile attempt to discredit me.. You *sshole. I never said i like the british isle revamp.. But applied the meaning of the word to the result of the image. As i said your map is not a revision, or a reconstruction of an exsisting image.. You have a new image.. Not the old image revised.. Revamp would not apply in your case.. Its unique to you and has nothing to do with the original mapmaker.. Did the original mapmaker take pride in his image ? More so than if A could attack E. Because its obvious here your defending your image. After you destroyed the original.. Oh wait liberally you would call it a revamp and add the original author to it to give him some credit

As required, the gameplay that the original mapmaker came up with is still the same in the revamp. The original mapmaker Hoff gets credit for creating the original map that this map was based off of. The revamp is only changing the map graphically, which is what all revamps do so how are you contrasting this revamp with the British Isles or any others?

well cartman must suit you well.. Try looking up the word revamp. Then get back to me.. Its quites clear to me.. Although brazil and B.I may be new images they still reflect the original image, thus the true meaning of the word revamp. Revisions. This is not a revision its unique to itself. And if you dont see it, CVS is currently running a sale on eyewear. Hoff gets credit for what????? there is nothing left to his work.. DONT YOU GET IT?????????

[pepperonibread]

There you go twisting words.. A true liberal. A vile attempt to discredit me.. You *sshole. I never said i like the british isle revamp.. But applied the meaning of the word to the result of the image. As i said your map is not a revision, or a reconstruction of an exsisting image.. You have a new image.. Not the old image revised.. Revamp would not apply in your case.. Its unique to you and has nothing to do with the original mapmaker.. Did the original mapmaker take pride in his image ? More so than if A could attack E. Because its obvious here your defending your image. After you destroyed the original.. Oh wait liberally you would call it a revamp and add the original author to it to give him some credit

The original mapmaker agreed to this revamp, as it has been the case with every revamp. I think I quoted him at the end of this thread's first post.
You argue that my changes made are "too much" to be considered a revamp. But what about revamped maps like Circus Max or Canada? Here are the original images:
CM
Canada
The graphical changes these maps underwent were huge. So it seems like there is a clear precedent for what I can and can't do with a revamp. Gameplay changes: no, but a graphics upgrade and increased accuracy appear to be well within what is allowed.

[danfrank]

i will admit those must be before my time. Again if you laid cirusmaximus next to the old one you would see the improvements although extreme still hints of the old one.. Thats pretty much my point.. If you laid brazil, B.I. and CM next to each other you can see the improvements. Canada and now germany the old image is non exsistent. Well enough of beating this one to death. Although i dont like your map,, Congrats on getting it published to the site

[pepperonibread]

Thanks dan. Seems like we've made it to some sort of understanding

[Gamefreakguy]

I agree with those that were of the opinion that there are better ways to represent the colors of Germany than making 3 sets of similarly colored regions... it's just not a good idea. If they were shifted around like the other version of the map that Bruce posted, it would be acceptable.

[jghost7]

Click image to enlarge.

i posted this to show what i mean about about not clear
i hope this helps to solve the issue

please note green 5 up north and yellow 7 on nurnberg just as examples because they actually effected my next move

Wow, thats how it looks on mine...


wish i would have thought of that...
saves some explaining doesnt it...

I cant see any of the borders up top....


Cant wait to see the next edition...

Thanks for listening pep,
J

[sully800]

I can see the borders perfectly in that screen capture as I can on my own games. I reiterate this point because it really puzzles me that people cannot see the lines at all in the dark region, when on my screen they are as clear as any of the other borders. You guys must have some wacky contrast on your monitors or it is indeed a form of color blindness. Nonetheless, it causes a real (and repeatable) problem on the map.

[the.killing.44]

I can see the borders perfectly in that screen capture as I can on my own games. I reiterate this point because it really puzzles me that people cannot see the lines at all in the dark region, when on my screen they are as clear as any of the other borders. You guys must have some wacky contrast on your monitors or it is indeed a form of color blindness. Nonetheless, it causes a real (and repeatable) problem on the map.

Yeah I'm with sully; I don't see any issue with that screen shot

[pepperonibread]

If someone's screen settings are screwed up somehow, you shouldn't be able to show it in a screenshot. Because the pixel data each computer gets and sends is the same, only a screen with bad settings would display the image differently.
So the screen cap doesn't help unfortunately. A person having problems would have to record whatever their settings are and post it so we can get an idea of the problem. But if you can do that, then you should be able to adjust your own settings anyway...

[pepperonibread]

I agree with those that were of the opinion that there are better ways to represent the colors of Germany than making 3 sets of similarly colored regions... it's just not a good idea. If they were shifted around like the other version of the map that Bruce posted, it would be acceptable.

I'm going to try to accentuate the differences between the similar colored continents first, however if the bonuses are still not clear you suggestion is my other option.
Thanks for your comments.

[tyche73]

I can see the borders perfectly in that screen capture as I can on my own games. I reiterate this point because it really puzzles me that people cannot see the lines at all in the dark region, when on my screen they are as clear as any of the other borders. You guys must have some wacky contrast on your monitors or it is indeed a form of color blindness. Nonetheless, it causes a real (and repeatable) problem on the map.

Yeah I'm with sully; I don't see any issue with that screen shot

Sully and killing i didn't post because i like the sound of my own voice.
I posted because i can't read it clearly, i have trouble seeing nearly all of yellows terry's
and the darker colours in the black area.
It wouldn't bother only for the fact that i like the map, had it been a map i would only play now and then i wouldn't waste my time posting.
I really liked the version that you got rid of, i appreciate that pepper has spent alot of time doing this one and the map i liked isn't coming back.
So rather than throwing myself on the floor and kicking my hands and legs, i'm putting my concerns in this forum
only to have it repeatly stated, ''i don't see the problem'',''it's crystal clear'', ''colour blind'' ,''bad monitor''........
So what's my alternative??? maybe just move on, play other maps i can read,and maybe in clan wars with the random maps coming up just hope i don't get unlucky???

[PLAYER57832]

A minor point. The "Z" in Ziweche looks a LOT like an "E". Rather confusing to those of us in "later years"

[pepperonibread]

A minor point. The "Z" in Ziweche looks a LOT like an "E". Rather confusing to those of us in "later years"

Alright thanks. I'll erase the middle line in the next update (if I don't just change the font).