Don't Ask, Don't Tell

[Skittles!]

This thread disgusts me.

Kthxbai.

[BigBallinStalin]

Say what you will about the don't ask don't tell debate, but the comparison between the civil rights movement regarding African Americans and the debate regarding homosexuals today is invalid.

One thing regards racial characteristics and the other a behavior. Unless you would assert that race is defined by behavior the comparison does not stand.

They are quite connected in that the same bigots are arguing against them.

Not true.

If you doubt this, look at the demographic support of Proposition 8 in California. The stereotypical image of the white redneck doesn't really hold up.

Rednecks? California?

Race can define character and many racists are more offended by action than skin colour. Your claim only takes a small part of the debate into consideration and your narrow-mindedness is quite clearly desplayed. Perhaps this can be attributed to some sort of trait you posess? Some kind of thinking that whatever you say is the be-all and end-all of any discussion? You can learn more from listening than from talking, you know.

I think I said race can define characteristics. Perhaps you mean to say race can define behavior? Your opening a whole other can of worms with that one if you are...

What I said isn't a claim, it's a fact. One thing is a behavior, the other is a race. The two things are incomparable. Also, if a person is offended by a behavior as opposed to a race it isn't racism.[/quote]
Yeah, it's bigotry, which in no way excuses it. Just admit you're a bigot.

[Burrito]

What really makes a black man different from a white one? Skin tone? Definitely. Diction? Perhaps for some. Shared cultural past? Maybe. Living in a ghetto? Not every black family is poor. Jail time? That is an arguable point, although that me be more because of situation over predisposition. The only real difference here is that their skin is a different color, their hair grows differently, they sometimes talk and dress funny. There is nothing there to preclude them from working/living in close proximity with other races, or even producing a family with other races.

Now gay men on the other hand are wildly varying. The come from all walks of life, from all over the country, all leading very different lives. The only thing that ties them together is their wish to have sexual intercourse with other. Now this fundamental aspect is what separates them from normal men. This is the problem that many have with them solely because of this. They may be great people in other ways, or they may be terrible ones. But they do something that many view as immoral, unnatural, or just plain wrong. Because of this, a majority of men will at least dislike/mistrust gay men, based on this one fundamental aspect of their existence. There is nothing to get over, no stereotypes to overcome, no acceptance for this. The difference here is not a purely aesthetic one, or a perceived one. They are different on a level similar to how extreme liberals and conservatives are different. Sure, they are both human beings, but their beliefs are polar opposites, precluding any real dialogue between the two. The same is true for black integration and gay integration. Sure, they have both been discriminated against, but for entirely different reasons.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't support government saying whether or not you can have sex with whoever you want, as long as your partner(s) are consenting. I think that they are to involved with trying to make everyone treat everyone equally, which really just fosters more hate. If you want to get screwed from behind, go ahead. I won't like it, I will look down on you with disgust, but I won't try to get the government involved in making you stop. I disagree with what you are doing, but I accept that as long as no one gets hurt, then I have no right to stop you. That said, I oppose gays integration into the military for the same reasons that I previously stated. They would not get integrate smoothly with the rest of the men in the service because of this fundamental aspect of their differences with normal human society. there would be nothing to get over, no perceptions to change. They are simply different on a way no straight man can relate to.

[xelabale]

What really makes a black man different from a white one? Skin tone? Definitely. Diction? Perhaps for some. Shared cultural past? Maybe. Living in a ghetto? Not every black family is poor. Jail time? That is an arguable point, although that me be more because of situation over predisposition. The only real difference here is that their skin is a different color, their hair grows differently, they sometimes talk and dress funny. There is nothing there to preclude them from working/living in close proximity with other races, or even producing a family with other races.

Now gay men on the other hand are wildly varying. The come from all walks of life, from all over the country, all leading very different lives. The only thing that ties them together is their wish to have sexual intercourse with other. Now this fundamental aspect is what separates them from normal men. This is the problem that many have with them solely because of this. They may be great people in other ways, or they may be terrible ones. But they do something that many view as immoral, unnatural, or just plain wrong. Because of this, a majority of men will at least dislike/mistrust gay men, based on this one fundamental aspect of their existence. There is nothing to get over, no stereotypes to overcome, no acceptance for this. The difference here is not a purely aesthetic one, or a perceived one. They are different on a level similar to how extreme liberals and conservatives are different. Sure, they are both human beings, but their beliefs are polar opposites, precluding any real dialogue between the two. The same is true for black integration and gay integration. Sure, they have both been discriminated against, but for entirely different reasons.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't support government saying whether or not you can have sex with whoever you want, as long as your partner(s) are consenting. I think that they are to involved with trying to make everyone treat everyone equally, which really just fosters more hate. If you want to get screwed from behind, go ahead. I won't like it, I will look down on you with disgust, but I won't try to get the government involved in making you stop. I disagree with what you are doing, but I accept that as long as no one gets hurt, then I have no right to stop you. That said, I oppose gays integration into the military for the same reasons that I previously stated. They would not get integrate smoothly with the rest of the men in the service because of this fundamental aspect of their differences with normal human society. there would be nothing to get over, no perceptions to change. They are simply different on a way no straight man can relate to.

Isn't language interesting?

[Burrito]

What really makes a black man different from a white one? Skin tone? Definitely. Diction? Perhaps for some. Shared cultural past? Maybe. Living in a ghetto? Not every black family is poor. Jail time? That is an arguable point, although that me be more because of situation over predisposition. The only real difference here is that their skin is a different color, their hair grows differently, they sometimes talk and dress funny. There is nothing there to preclude them from working/living in close proximity with other races, or even producing a family with other races.

Now gay men on the other hand are wildly varying. The come from all walks of life, from all over the country, all leading very different lives. The only thing that ties them together is their wish to have sexual intercourse with other. Now this fundamental aspect is what separates them from normal men. This is the problem that many have with them solely because of this. They may be great people in other ways, or they may be terrible ones. But they do something that many view as immoral, unnatural, or just plain wrong. Because of this, a majority of men will at least dislike/mistrust gay men, based on this one fundamental aspect of their existence. There is nothing to get over, no stereotypes to overcome, no acceptance for this. The difference here is not a purely aesthetic one, or a perceived one. They are different on a level similar to how extreme liberals and conservatives are different. Sure, they are both human beings, but their beliefs are polar opposites, precluding any real dialogue between the two. The same is true for black integration and gay integration. Sure, they have both been discriminated against, but for entirely different reasons.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't support government saying whether or not you can have sex with whoever you want, as long as your partner(s) are consenting. I think that they are to involved with trying to make everyone treat everyone equally, which really just fosters more hate. If you want to get screwed from behind, go ahead. I won't like it, I will look down on you with disgust, but I won't try to get the government involved in making you stop. I disagree with what you are doing, but I accept that as long as no one gets hurt, then I have no right to stop you. That said, I oppose gays integration into the military for the same reasons that I previously stated. They would not get integrate smoothly with the rest of the men in the service because of this fundamental aspect of their differences with normal human society. there would be nothing to get over, no perceptions to change. They are simply different on a way no straight man can relate to.

Isn't language interesting?

[Skittles!]

Now gay men on the other hand are wildly varying. The come from all walks of life, from all over the country, all leading very different lives. The only thing that ties them together is their wish to have sexual intercourse with other.

Haha. That's what you have wrong. Most homosexual males don't wish to have sexual intercourse with each other. I know many, many, many gays/bi's that I wouldn't even touch with a ten foot pole, and if they tried to do stuff with my partner, I'd try and punch them in the face.

Now this fundamental aspect is what separates them from normal men.

Normal men? Please get over yourself. Nothing is amazingly 'normal'. If you don't want to look like a bigot, please just state 'heterosexual', not 'normal'.

But they do something that many view as immoral, unnatural, or just plain wrong. Because of this, a majority of men will at least dislike/mistrust gay men, based on this one fundamental aspect of their existence.

It's called misunderstanding and ignorance. This is exactly what you suffer from, but many 'normal' people actually realise there isn't anything wrong, or immoral, or unnatural about homosexuality. I know many people that don't dislike or mistrust me because of my sexuality. Then again, I know some that would be, but that's because they're ignorant fuckwits who try and argue that homosexuality is wrong, while they're pretty closest themselves. Oh wait, who does that remind me of?

Sure, they are both human beings, but their beliefs are polar opposites, precluding any real dialogue between the two.

You are starting to worry me. Beliefs aren't different, just something in the brain that creates arousal (for some) of the same sex, and (for some) of the opposite sex. It is not a belief, it just is.

If you want to get screwed from behind, go ahead. I won't like it, I will look down on you with disgust, but I won't try to get the government involved in making you stop. I disagree with what you are doing, but I accept that as long as no one gets hurt, then I have no right to stop you.

You've obviously never been fucked up the arse. It hurts like a bitch.

[Burrito]

Now gay men on the other hand are wildly varying. The come from all walks of life, from all over the country, all leading very different lives. The only thing that ties them together is their wish to have sexual intercourse with other.

Haha. That's what you have wrong. Most homosexual males don't wish to have sexual intercourse with each other. I know many, many, many gays/bi's that I wouldn't even touch with a ten foot pole, and if they tried to do stuff with my partner, I'd try and punch them in the face.

Now this fundamental aspect is what separates them from normal men.

Normal men? Please get over yourself. Nothing is amazingly 'normal'. If you don't want to look like a bigot, please just state 'heterosexual', not 'normal'.

Except that the vast majority of people are straight? There was a previous statistic thrown up earlier (with no support whatsoever) that 14% of the population is gay. That means that AT LEAST 86% of the population is straight. I think that safely constitutes "normal", right?

But they do something that many view as immoral, unnatural, or just plain wrong. Because of this, a majority of men will at least dislike/mistrust gay men, based on this one fundamental aspect of their existence.

It's called misunderstanding and ignorance. This is exactly what you suffer from, but many 'normal' people actually realise there isn't anything wrong, or immoral, or unnatural about homosexuality. I know many people that don't dislike or mistrust me because of my sexuality. Then again, I know some that would be, but that's because they're ignorant fuckwits who try and argue that homosexuality is wrong, while they're pretty closest themselves. Oh wait, who does that remind me of?

Of course, everything that I profess not to like, I secretly do like. I mean, I tell people that I don't like fish, so it must be my favorite food in the world. I think people that have 4 foot tall liberty spike dyed pink look like douches, so of course I secretly wish to style my hair like that. And of course, I don't like gays, so I must actually be gay, right?

Sure, they are both human beings, but their beliefs are polar opposites, precluding any real dialogue between the two.

You are starting to worry me. Beliefs aren't different, just something in the brain that creates arousal (for some) of the same sex, and (for some) of the opposite sex. It is not a belief, it just is.

It was an example. Next time try actually reading the post and not just trying to tear it down.

[quote[If you want to get screwed from behind, go ahead. I won't like it, I will look down on you with disgust, but I won't try to get the government involved in making you stop. I disagree with what you are doing, but I accept that as long as no one gets hurt, then I have no right to stop you.

You've obviously never been fucked up the arse. It hurts like a bitch.

[Snorri1234]

Why not let cripples in the military too? Paraplegics? They deserve the right to give their lives on the front lines...

Is it so hard to accept that not everybody is equally suited to serve? Where do we stop inclusion in favor of the morale/attitude/capabilities of our troops? If you think that everyone in the military can just get along happily no matter what then you are shitting rainbows.

I know I am bordering on offensive here but I don't really care. This is the military, not politics.

Also, I said some gay people, not all. In fact, I made it clear that some are not like that (hence why I have friends that are homosexual).

Holy shit! HOLY SHIT!!

I think you've already passed the border of offensive and drove straight to hey-guys-look-how-bigoted-I-am-land.

[Skittles!]

I'm not saying that you are gay, but the way that you view gays is quite telling in a different way. For instance, you say that you don't fear them but rather dislike them, but you also say that you would be uncomfortable being around them. I can only imagine that your opposition to homosexuality exists because you feel that it is gross, for lack of a better word. To me this shows that you view sexuality not as part of human nature but as part of someone's personality.

Now explain what being openly gay has to do with being an on-duty, professional soldier.

Exactly, so why is it such a problem to be openly gay? If they can be an on-duty, professional soldier, then WHAT is the problem?

[Snorri1234]

What is interesting is that the people who I know are/were in the military here seem to have no problems with getting rid of the policy while the guys who aren't even in the military vehemently support it.

[MeDeFe]

What really makes a black man different from a white one? Skin tone? Definitely. Diction? Perhaps for some. Shared cultural past? Maybe. Living in a ghetto? Not every black family is poor. Jail time? That is an arguable point, although that me be more because of situation over predisposition. The only real difference here is that their skin is a different color, their hair grows differently, they sometimes talk and dress funny. There is nothing there to preclude them from working/living in close proximity with other races, or even producing a family with other races.

Now gay men on the other hand are wildly varying. The come from all walks of life, from all over the country, all leading very different lives. The only thing that ties them together is their wish to have sexual intercourse with other. Now this fundamental aspect is what separates them from normal men. This is the problem that many have with them solely because of this. They may be great people in other ways, or they may be terrible ones. But they do something that many view as immoral, unnatural, or just plain wrong. Because of this, a majority of men will at least dislike/mistrust gay men, based on this one fundamental aspect of their existence. There is nothing to get over, no stereotypes to overcome, no acceptance for this. The difference here is not a purely aesthetic one, or a perceived one. They are different on a level similar to how extreme liberals and conservatives are different. Sure, they are both human beings, but their beliefs are polar opposites, precluding any real dialogue between the two. The same is true for black integration and gay integration. Sure, they have both been discriminated against, but for entirely different reasons.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't support government saying whether or not you can have sex with whoever you want, as long as your partner(s) are consenting. I think that they are to involved with trying to make everyone treat everyone equally, which really just fosters more hate. If you want to get screwed from behind, go ahead. I won't like it, I will look down on you with disgust, but I won't try to get the government involved in making you stop. I disagree with what you are doing, but I accept that as long as no one gets hurt, then I have no right to stop you. That said, I oppose gays integration into the military for the same reasons that I previously stated. They would not get integrate smoothly with the rest of the men in the service because of this fundamental aspect of their differences with normal human society. there would be nothing to get over, no perceptions to change. They are simply different on a way no straight man can relate to.

[notyou2]

Scanners!!!

[Juan_Bottom]

Haha. That's what you have wrong. Most homosexual males don't wish to have sexual intercourse with each other. I know many, many, many gays/bi's that I wouldn't even touch with a ten foot pole, and if they tried to do stuff with my partner, I'd try and punch them in the face.

I read in Seventeen(?) once that only 30% of homosexual males have ever had anal sex.
It's was almost the same percentage as females....



I'm not gonna bother quoting here, but yes, being gay is genetic. I don't know why everyone still thinks that it isn't. Dr. Dean Hamer has not only found the gay gene, but he's also published and peer reviewed.

[Ray Rider]

Are you sure it would be wise to encourage male homosexual behavior in any way, knowing the risks involved?

[Juan_Bottom]

Are you sure that you would like to encourage people to be black knowing what goes on in Africa????


AIDS! Everybody has AIDS--AIDS--AIDS--AIDS---!

Click image to enlarge.

big-oh-tree.

[hecter]

Are you sure it would be wise to encourage male homosexual behavior in any way, knowing the risks involved?

Are you sure it would be wise to encourage being black knowing the risks involved?
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveilla ... m#aidsrace
Bigotry is bigotry.

[Ray Rider]

Are you sure it would be wise to encourage being black knowing the risks involved?
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveilla ... m#aidsrace
Bigotry is bigotry.

Simply because statistics show that blacks contract AIDS more commonly than other ethnicities doesn't change the fact that the most common method of transmission by far is male homosexuality. It wouldn't be wise to encourage a black man to engage in homosexual behavior.

[hecter]

Are you sure it would be wise to encourage being black knowing the risks involved?
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveilla ... m#aidsrace
Bigotry is bigotry.

Simply because statistics show that blacks contract AIDS more commonly than other ethnicities doesn't change the fact that the most common method of transmission by far is male homosexuality. It wouldn't be wise to encourage a black man to be homosexual.

No, the most common method of transmission is high-risk sexual activity. Gay people tend to have more sex (as they're men, and men like sex). Since they are both men, there's no risk of pregnancy, so they tend to use condoms less. And you know what that is? That's high-risk sexual activity.

[GabonX]

I think you just made his point

[hecter]

I think you just made his point

No, he's saying that being gay means you're more likely to contract AIDS. That's false, just like being black doesn't make you more likely to contract AIDS. Simply being gay (or black) doesn't give AIDS. Engaging in risky sexual activity gives you AIDS. Sharing needles gives you AIDS.

[Juan_Bottom]

Why does Ray Rider hate gay people so much? He obviously knows how to look up AIDs/gay stats, but can't google "gay gene" to see that there has been peer reviewed research proving that there is a gay gene? It's disturbing to see someone mix fact and lies to create their own truth.

[SultanOfSurreal]

Nowhere near the same thing. Disregarding the fact that it's generally harder to kick the shit out of a black guy,

the most amazing thing about your post is that it actually goes downhill after this

[GabonX]

Why does Ray Rider hate gay people so much? He obviously knows how to look up AIDs/gay stats, but can't google "gay gene" to see that there has been peer reviewed research proving that there is a gay gene? It's disturbing to see someone mix fact and lies to create their own truth.

Why does Ray Rider hate gay people so much? He obviously knows how to look up AIDs/gay stats, but can't google "gay gene" to see that there has been peer reviewed research proving that there is a gay gene? It's disturbing to see someone mix fact and lies to create their own truth.

There's no conclusive research which indicates that this is the case. Most of the studies which are taken are coming from the world view that there is in fact a gay gene and that the purpose of the study is to find it.

Nobody has...

This is the first link that comes up when you google "gay gene."

Honestly homosexuality doesn't bother me. I think that they should be allowed to serve in the military and even have relationships (so long as they are not with others in the military). I think don't ask don't tell is a good policy in principal but that it has been mismanaged.

A person should not be kicked out if they are "found out". Rather they should only be kicked out if they flaunt their sexuality openly.

[Frigidus]

Holy shit, either we're being trolled or this is the most telling gay thread I've ever read. Sweeping assumptions about homosexuals. A lengthy discussion about how black people arguably go to jail more often, and this makes them different from gays because gays aren't all the same. Suggestion that we need to save people from the gay AIDS. A guy who feels that if gays weren't closeted members of our military would kick the shit out of them (more insulting to the military and the foundation of America than to gays).

Come on guys, I can deal with conservative economic stuff and even go as far to seriously consider your arguments on abortion, but this is ridiculous. In just a couple of decades saying these sort of things will make people wince. Let go of your prejudices. Realize that gays aren't dressed like this 24/7. Make our country a little bit more of a better place.

[GabonX]

Umm.. Those gays are dressed like that...

Didn't you argue that they should be allowed to dress like that? and that a convicted murderer and attempted rapist should be transfered to a women's prison because he dressed like that??