Don't Ask, Don't Tell

[MeDeFe]

Are you making a joke that went over my head? Because my irony meter is going "bing bing bing."
You kinda just did what I did (only worst)and directed it at me.

I kinda just did what you did to whomever, yes. However, I also gave you reasons why you shouldn't do it (unlike what you did) and gave you what you may want to argue instead (unlike what you did).

I gave him gold!

Rather than saying "gee I never thought of that," "well what about this then," or "hey, maybe I am wrong." You're labeling yourself as a homophob, not me.

You peace + love hippy-crit.

Here's the deal dude. You think one guy doesn't like homosexuality because he's an idiot. He thinks you like homosexuality because you're an idiot. Makes for a great debate.

Actually I think Juan thinks the guy is an idiot because of the way he "argues".

[Frigidus]

Rush and the Ilk.

Aside from being a good band name, that's a good name for the emotional (as opposed to logical) conservatives.

[jonesthecurl]

Are you making a joke that went over my head? Because my irony meter is going "bing bing bing."
You kinda just did what I did (only worst)and directed it at me.

I kinda just did what you did to whomever, yes. However, I also gave you reasons why you shouldn't do it (unlike what you did) and gave you what you may want to argue instead (unlike what you did).

no u

[Snorri1234]

Greek, you usually make good points and while I also usually don't agree with you I can see that you start from some rational point.

But you can't seriously argue that we need to make good and reasonable points to people who post this:

What really makes a black man different from a white one? Skin tone? Definitely. Diction? Perhaps for some. Shared cultural past? Maybe. Living in a ghetto? Not every black family is poor. Jail time? That is an arguable point, although that me be more because of situation over predisposition. The only real difference here is that their skin is a different color, their hair grows differently, they sometimes talk and dress funny. There is nothing there to preclude them from working/living in close proximity with other races, or even producing a family with other races.

Now gay men on the other hand are wildly varying. The come from all walks of life, from all over the country, all leading very different lives. The only thing that ties them together is their wish to have sexual intercourse with other. Now this fundamental aspect is what separates them from normal men. This is the problem that many have with them solely because of this. They may be great people in other ways, or they may be terrible ones. But they do something that many view as immoral, unnatural, or just plain wrong. Because of this, a majority of men will at least dislike/mistrust gay men, based on this one fundamental aspect of their existence. There is nothing to get over, no stereotypes to overcome, no acceptance for this. The difference here is not a purely aesthetic one, or a perceived one. They are different on a level similar to how extreme liberals and conservatives are different. Sure, they are both human beings, but their beliefs are polar opposites, precluding any real dialogue between the two. The same is true for black integration and gay integration. Sure, they have both been discriminated against, but for entirely different reasons.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't support government saying whether or not you can have sex with whoever you want, as long as your partner(s) are consenting. I think that they are to involved with trying to make everyone treat everyone equally, which really just fosters more hate. If you want to get screwed from behind, go ahead. I won't like it, I will look down on you with disgust, but I won't try to get the government involved in making you stop. I disagree with what you are doing, but I accept that as long as no one gets hurt, then I have no right to stop you. That said, I oppose gays integration into the military for the same reasons that I previously stated. They would not get integrate smoothly with the rest of the men in the service because of this fundamental aspect of their differences with normal human society. there would be nothing to get over, no perceptions to change. They are simply different on a way no straight man can relate to.

[Juan_Bottom]

I DIdnt e VEN kno that HHE weres Seriously uTil hisSSh lash POSST. I Ma PeiCiNG me heAAAd BraCK TOGeTHUR Ser Ples b PaTIEnt wIff ME.

[HapSmo19]

With that said, if people see this sort of thing in a public setting it is offensive as they (and potentially their children) are being subjected to an extreme form of homosexual perversion.

All right, I can sort of see that. I feel the same way about graphic images of abortion...

Wait...You don't like graphic images of abortion because you feel they might harm the children?

We've found the true definition of irony here, haven't we?

[Snorri1234]

With that said, if people see this sort of thing in a public setting it is offensive as they (and potentially their children) are being subjected to an extreme form of homosexual perversion.

All right, I can sort of see that. I feel the same way about graphic images of abortion...

Wait...You don't like graphic images of abortion because you feel they might harm the children?

We've found the true definition of irony here, haven't we?

I think you need to look up what irony means.

[Woodruff]

ALRIGHT, so I'm a long-winded bastard...but if you're seriously interested in discussion of this thread, then read my responses below. Or talk less while I'm at work! <grin>

Thank you for the history lesson on precisely which arguments were used against the integration of blacks into the military. That definitely adds relevant information to the discussion and helps to prove the point that I'm making. And as we (reasonably quickly) saw, there wasn't a lot of substance to the arguments.

Nowhere near the same thing. Disregarding the fact that it's generally harder to kick the shit out of a black guy

Say WHAT? Where did you get the silly idea that "it's generally harder to kick the shit out of a black guy" than a homosexual? Are you presuming that homosexuals aren't tough or good fighters? Because that would be a very mistaken presumption.

there's a difference between drilling with a guy whose ancestors were from Africa instead of Europe, and having some guy that you hate lusting after you in the public showers. Don't tell me that wouldn't piss you off.

But you see...homosexuals really ARE just like heterosexuals in that if the person they're interested in does not return the interest, they generally move on. No difference. Just like heterosexuals, there are those who might push things too far...which is where the military regulations kick in and take care of that problem.

But there will always be closet pervs.

That's true enough...just as there are heterosexual perverts...should women not be allowed in the military because of that? Hell, for that matter, should men not be allowed in the military because of that?

In short, it's an issue that won't go away, and I'd prefer to know who the gays are so it becomes less awkward to talk about it. "Don't ask, don't tell" needs to go.

I agree with this.

Sorry if I offended anyone with this, it's just one of my biggest pet peeves. It's hard to talk about while being "politically correct" at the same time.

I didn't consider your statements offensive (though I found the one referring to them being easier to beat up as misguided).

Disregarding the moral aspects of integrating homosexuals into the armed forces (I'm against it), practically it is a terrible idea. Not only will the gay recruits literally have the sh*t kicked out of them by all the normal guys in there (at least for male recruits), integrating gays into the military will detract from unit integrity. I wouldn't be comfortable living in close proximity to a homosexual. It would create unnecessary tension.

Are you honestly telling me that I, my fellow Marines, and our fellow service members aren't professional enough to conduct ourselves in a professional manner around gays? Are you fucking serious?

I don't care whether they're straight, gay, bi, transgender, what have you, so long as when the shit hits the fan and rounds start coming down range, they return fire and save my ass, just as I'd save them.

Prezactly. We're limited our manpower pool of effective fighters by keeping them out. Would there INITIALLY be some problems with over-reactions on both sides? Of course there would be...it's the nature of that sort of a transition. But long-term, it quite simply makes sense.

As john9blue said, it is different between black integration and homosexual integration. Blacks were disliked because of the color of their skin and to a lesser extent the opinion that they were less intelligent than white people. Homosexuals are disliked because many view homosexuality as an abomination, or a mental disorder. Blacks were eventually accepted once they proved that they could overcome the stereotype placed upon them. The problem with homosexuals isn't a matter of perception.

It absolutely IS a matter of perception. The perception that many hold that seem to believe that a homosexual is unable or unwilling to be disciplined about their attractions, as well as the perception that heterosexuals in the military simply won't stand for it.

I find it absolutely fascinating that two members of the military (ok, I'm recently retired, rather than active duty) are arguing that they SHOULD be allowed in while many who have never been in the military are arguing against it. I would have thought it would have been the opposite.

They like guys, and that makes the majority of the male population at least uncomfortable, at most murderous. especially in the infantry, unit cohesion is a must. You HAVE to be able to trust the men next to you with your life. Friction between members of a unit detracts from concentration that could be given to the task at hand, increasing the possibility of mistakes being made. And differences between normal men and gay ones will never go away. even if you train with them, fight with them, live with them, even become friends with them, you will never get over the thinking about what they might be thinking about during workouts, or next to you in a foxhole, or any other situation where there could be any hint of arousal to a gay man.

I'm sorry, but this is absolutely wrong and strikes me very much that you have never been in the military, because you don't seem to understand the process.

This is the same reason (at least in infantry units) men and women are separated. Hell, women aren't even allowed to become infantry in the Marines. Sexual tension, tension of any kind, detracts from the basic mission of every soldier out there.

Actually, it has nothing at all to do with sexual tension and has almost everything to do with the perception that a man will "over-defend" a woman in a dangerous situation rather than sticking solely to their duty to the unit.

Why not let cripples in the military too? Paraplegics? They deserve the right to give their lives on the front lines...
Is it so hard to accept that not everybody is equally suited to serve? Where do we stop inclusion in favor of the morale/attitude/capabilities of our troops? If you think that everyone in the military can just get along happily no matter what then you are shitting rainbows.

So you equate homosexuality with being a cripple or a paraplegic? Really? The FACT is that many homosexuals have already served AND WITH GREAT DISTINCTION. That FACT cannot be ignored. It is simply silly not to allow them to serve when many very much desire to do so.

Of course, everything that I profess not to like, I secretly do like. I mean, I tell people that I don't like fish, so it must be my favorite food in the world. I think people that have 4 foot tall liberty spike dyed pink look like douches, so of course I secretly wish to style my hair like that. And of course, I don't like gays, so I must actually be gay, right?

I'm not saying that you are gay, but the way that you view gays is quite telling in a different way. For instance, you say that you don't fear them but rather dislike them, but you also say that you would be uncomfortable being around them. I can only imagine that your opposition to homosexuality exists because you feel that it is gross, for lack of a better word. To me this shows that you view sexuality not as part of human nature but as part of someone's personality.

In fairness, I can honestly say that homosexuality makes me feel a bit uncomfortable (probably how I was raised)...but that's ok, because I can deal with being uncomfortable. My being uncomfortable is sure a selfish reason not to let someone work with me.

Say what you will about the don't ask don't tell debate, but the comparison between the civil rights movement regarding African Americans and the debate regarding homosexuals today is invalid.
One thing regards racial characteristics and the other a behavior. Unless you would assert that race is defined by behavior the comparison does not stand.

No sir, I disagree entirely...not only is the comparison VERY valid...frankly, the situations are almost IDENTICAL.

It's like old people smell (not always true), frogs aren't smart enough for algebra (not always true)

FROGS CAN DO ALGEBRA???? (I'm going to presume you're not speaking of the French here...)

and women sports are incredibly boring to watch (always true, but still, offensive).

Diana Taurasi (not sure that's spelled quite right) is one of the most exciting players in basketball, period. (Granted, the level of play between the WNBA and NBA is quite disparate.)

Are you sure it would be wise to encourage being black knowing the risks involved?
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveilla ... m#aidsrace
Bigotry is bigotry.

Simply because statistics show that blacks contract AIDS more commonly than other ethnicities doesn't change the fact that the most common method of transmission by far is male homosexuality. It wouldn't be wise to encourage a black man to be homosexual.

No, the most common method of transmission is high-risk sexual activity. Gay people tend to have more sex (as they're men, and men like sex). Since they are both men, there's no risk of pregnancy, so they tend to use condoms less. And you know what that is? That's high-risk sexual activity.

All gay people are men? This site is a font of knowledge, I tell you.

Honestly homosexuality doesn't bother me. I think that they should be allowed to serve in the military and even have relationships (so long as they are not with others in the military).

Why not? Hetersexuals can be married to someone else in the military (though it's very hard on the marriage, because they won't guarantee common assignments).

A person should not be kicked out if they are "found out". Rather they should only be kicked out if they flaunt their sexuality openly.

I don't even mind them "flaunting", so long as they're not disrespecting my right not to be pressured by them. Hold hands...kiss...(not in uniform though, as that's against the regs)...even come on to me but respect my right to refuse. I may look away because it makes me uncomfortable, but it doesn't in any way make you "unable to serve as a professional".

With that said, if people see this sort of thing in a public setting it is offensive as they (and potentially their children) are being subjected to an extreme form of homosexual perversion.

That isn't homosexual perversion...it's just the same thing as it is when a heterosexual wears a speedo (outside of a swim competition)...it's just plain ugly as hell.

There is absolutely a conservative Christian agenda to convince the American public that gays are evil and icky, but no conclusive evidence supports this.

You mean Extreme Christian agenda don't you. I for one don't like their lifestyle, and at the same time I don't mind working with them. They are people too, just a different lifestyle. That doesn't mean they have the right to ram their way of living down my throat, and I don't have the right to ram my way living down their throats. As a matter of fact I have met Homosexuals that acted more like Christians than a lot of Christians I know.

Well stated - I agree with everything you've said here. You are a credit to your faith.

[john9blue]

I'm a "gay basher"? So every time someone disagrees with you, you pull the "homophobe" card? That's like the "racist" card for anyone who disagrees with Obama. This thread is going downhill.

[Juan_Bottom]

I'm a "gay basher"? So every time someone disagrees with you, you pull the "homophobe" card? That's like the "racist" card for anyone who disagrees with Obama. This thread is going downhill.

Do you not notice how everyone is looking at you like you just said the "n" word?

[john9blue]

Do you not notice how everyone is looking at you like you just said the "n" word?

Yes, but it doesn't matter to me, really. It's an online forum.

Also, it's hard to look at someone over the Internet...

[Woodruff]

I'm a "gay basher"? So every time someone disagrees with you, you pull the "homophobe" card? That's like the "racist" card for anyone who disagrees with Obama. This thread is going downhill.

I didn't in any way call you a gay basher, and yet you didn't respond at all to my points. Hmmm...looking for an excuse, are you?

[jonesthecurl]

I have the solution to all the problems of gay soldiers and why they shouldn't be allowed to serve with non-gays,

Only recruit gays. This will help in the following ways:

(i) only gay guys will be killed by enemy hostiles. This will reduce the overall number of gays.

(ii) Nobody will be worried about whether some gay guy is checking out their arse in gym. Only whether their arse is worth checking out.

[MeDeFe]

I have the solution to all the problems of gay soldiers and why they shouldn't be allowed to serve with non-gays,

Only recruit gays. This will help in the following ways:

(i) only gay guys will be killed by enemy hostiles. This will reduce the overall number of gays.

(ii) Nobody will be worried about whether some gay guy is checking out their arse in gym. Only whether their arse is worth checking out.

My sarcasm-meter supports the proposal. :D

[SultanOfSurreal]

Is that the sound of snorii choking?

he doesn't have a gag reflex anymore








or so i hear

[thegreekdog]

Greek, you usually make good points and while I also usually don't agree with you I can see that you start from some rational point.

But you can't seriously argue that we need to make good and reasonable points to people who post this:

What really makes a black man different from a white one? Skin tone? Definitely. Diction? Perhaps for some. Shared cultural past? Maybe. Living in a ghetto? Not every black family is poor. Jail time? That is an arguable point, although that me be more because of situation over predisposition. The only real difference here is that their skin is a different color, their hair grows differently, they sometimes talk and dress funny. There is nothing there to preclude them from working/living in close proximity with other races, or even producing a family with other races.

Now gay men on the other hand are wildly varying. The come from all walks of life, from all over the country, all leading very different lives. The only thing that ties them together is their wish to have sexual intercourse with other. Now this fundamental aspect is what separates them from normal men. This is the problem that many have with them solely because of this. They may be great people in other ways, or they may be terrible ones. But they do something that many view as immoral, unnatural, or just plain wrong. Because of this, a majority of men will at least dislike/mistrust gay men, based on this one fundamental aspect of their existence. There is nothing to get over, no stereotypes to overcome, no acceptance for this. The difference here is not a purely aesthetic one, or a perceived one. They are different on a level similar to how extreme liberals and conservatives are different. Sure, they are both human beings, but their beliefs are polar opposites, precluding any real dialogue between the two. The same is true for black integration and gay integration. Sure, they have both been discriminated against, but for entirely different reasons.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't support government saying whether or not you can have sex with whoever you want, as long as your partner(s) are consenting. I think that they are to involved with trying to make everyone treat everyone equally, which really just fosters more hate. If you want to get screwed from behind, go ahead. I won't like it, I will look down on you with disgust, but I won't try to get the government involved in making you stop. I disagree with what you are doing, but I accept that as long as no one gets hurt, then I have no right to stop you. That said, I oppose gays integration into the military for the same reasons that I previously stated. They would not get integrate smoothly with the rest of the men in the service because of this fundamental aspect of their differences with normal human society. there would be nothing to get over, no perceptions to change. They are simply different on a way no straight man can relate to.

I still haven't read this. I dismissed this entire thread because it's weird and disturbing.

[got tonkaed]

Ive read primarily what woodruff has posted and the some of the initial stuff and its quite clear he is flooding the thread with logic and common sense.

[thegreekdog]

Ive read primarily what woodruff has posted and the some of the initial stuff and its quite clear he is flooding the thread with logic and common sense.

DAMN YOU SPOCK!!!

er...

KHAN!!!!

[spurgistan]

I also find woodruff one cool drink of water after the stunning desert of mind-asplosion that is this thread.

[TeletubbyPrince]

Ive read primarily what woodruff has posted and the some of the initial stuff and its quite clear he is flooding the thread with logic and common sense.

More like opinions and liberal propoganda.

A gay guy would cause discomfort for his comrades, end of story.

[got tonkaed]

TTP id invite you to compare logical fallacies and to count connotative words by comparison between the posts he makes and the posts hes responding to, if youd like to compare the logic. It is not really a valid statement to claim that an opinion cannot be more logical than another or that an opinion in and of itself is devoid of logic. In a similar vein, calling something liberal propaganda doesnt not make it such.

Its fairly clear on a quick scan that he is not engaging in the same fallacious style the other people in the thread are.

[Juan_Bottom]

I'm a "gay basher"? So every time someone disagrees with you, you pull the "homophobe" card? That's like the "racist" card for anyone who disagrees with Obama. This thread is going downhill.

I didn't in any way call you a gay basher, and yet you didn't respond at all to my points. Hmmm...looking for an excuse, are you?

I called him a gay-basher and he was responding to me. He wasn't bashing anyone in a physical way mind you. Just being a bit insulting.

[spurgistan]

Ive read primarily what woodruff has posted and the some of the initial stuff and its quite clear he is flooding the thread with logic and common sense.

More like opinions and liberal propoganda.

A gay guy would cause discomfort for his comrades, end of story.

Oh. Somebody should tell the actual members of the military here (like woodruff) that that's the case, they obviously aren't aware.

[Frigidus]

Ive read primarily what woodruff has posted and the some of the initial stuff and its quite clear he is flooding the thread with logic and common sense.

More like opinions and liberal propoganda.

A gay guy would cause discomfort for his comrades, end of story.

Oh. Somebody should tell the actual members of the military here (like woodruff) that that's the case, they obviously aren't aware.

Nah, he's one of those Dems.

We should ask a real American, like Hologram.

I don't care whether they're straight, gay, bi, transgender, what have you, so long as when the shit hits the fan and rounds start coming down range, they return fire and save my ass, just as I'd save them.

[TeletubbyPrince]

Ive read primarily what woodruff has posted and the some of the initial stuff and its quite clear he is flooding the thread with logic and common sense.

More like opinions and liberal propoganda.

A gay guy would cause discomfort for his comrades, end of story.

Oh. Somebody should tell the actual members of the military here (like woodruff) that that's the case, they obviously aren't aware.

Yes, lets gather anecdotal evidence from one guy and use it to represent the entire US military's view, that is such a good idea you should win awards omg