Are you a progressive?

[mpjh]

Scratch a liberal, find a fascist.

Is this some sort of new lottery card?

Wise saying from experience in the 60s and 70s.

[Aradhus]

I think it is unfair to lay the blame on the right outhussling the progressives. If anything, it's the political left, the white house, that the progressives are up against. Most reasonable people see passed the inane transparent tactics of the right. The coorporations are winning,the lobbyists, and wall street. They're winning because Obama is not fighting them, he is making deals with them, and bowing his head like a good little boy.

[mpjh]

I think it is unfair to lay the blame on the right outhussling the progressives. If anything, it's the political left, the white house, that the progressives are up against. Most reasonable people see passed the inane transparent tactics of the right. The coorporations are winning,the lobbyists, and wall street. They're winning because Obama is not fighting them, he is making deals with them, and bowing his head like a good little boy.

Absolutely, I think you hit the nail on its head.

[pimpdave]

I think it is unfair to lay the blame on the right outhussling the progressives. If anything, it's the political left, the white house, that the progressives are up against. Most reasonable people see passed the inane transparent tactics of the right. The coorporations are winning,the lobbyists, and wall street. They're winning because Obama is not fighting them, he is making deals with them, and bowing his head like a good little boy.

Absolutely, I think you hit the nail on its head.

And the worst part about the corporations and lobbyists "winning" is that it's sinking the entire ship, but they're all too myopic to see it.

Also, despite how much revulsion I have for Nixon's administration, the guy did start the EPA...

That suggests to me that being progressive isn't so much a political ideology as it is recognizing the importance of investing in the future rather than maintaining the status quo, or attempting to bring back some imagined earlier time that only exists in nostalgia, and not real history. At least that's what it is in my understanding.

So Nixon was progressive when it came to environmental protection (EPA), workplace safety (OSHA) and diplomacy (dealings with communist China). He was hopelessly regressive when it came preserving the union, given how much damage he did to the public trust well before Watergate, with all the fear mongering over "subversives" (anyone under 30 with long hair).

All of this is to say that if Obama doesn't get something going soon, he's going to hand the midterm elections to the Republicans the same way the Republicans handed it to the Democrats in 2006.

I'm growing impatient too and I've supported Obama from the moment he announced his candidacy.

Kucinich released a well reasoned statement for why he wouldn't vote for the healthcare bill. Look it up, it's worth reading.

[thegreekdog]

I would say that the unions are a good example of Democrats being regressive (although surely Republicans are the regressive party). The support of unions to the detriment of decreased product costs (in the case of, for example, automobiles) and education (in the case of the teacher's union) has been a very prickly thorn. If I was a parent (and hopefully I am someday), I would be very concerned about teachers unions and the effect they have on teachers, specifically teachers who have tenure not teaching to the best of their abilities.

[thegreekdog]

Kucinish's explanation is interesting and telling about the Democrats as a party inasmuch as they are truly like the Republicans have been labelled. Good lobbying by the insurance companies, although I'd be conerned about that Cadillac plan tax if I were them.

[BigBallinStalin]

Well, one good possible outcome from all that's been going from the majority of both parties is that perhaps they'll later down the road make things so bad, that a revolution of some kind would be in order. I'm not talking about civil war, but a fundamental change in the way America runs itself.

We've got a lot of people from all sides of the spectrum who are thoroughly disappointed with the two parties, and we've got an ever increasing amount of problems and failed promises; therefore, perhaps a huge change is on its way...

[luns101]

He refuses to tell the Israelis that the settlements in Palestine must end

Not in those exact words, but yes he has.

There is no such place as Palestine. The Roman emperor, Hadrian renamed Judea as Palestine (which means Philistine Land) to tick off the Jews.

[mpjh]

He refuses to tell the Israelis that the settlements in Palestine must end

Not in those exact words, but yes he has.

There is no such place as Palestine. The Roman emperor, Hadrian renamed Judea as Palestine (which means Philistine Land) to tick off the Jews.

He told them to stop building new ones. He never to them to stop and return to Israel proper.

[jay_a2j]

He refuses to tell the Israelis that the settlements in Palestine must end

Not in those exact words, but yes he has.

There is no such place as Palestine. The Roman emperor, Hadrian renamed Judea as Palestine (which means Philistine Land) to tick off the Jews.

He told them to stop building new ones. He never to them to stop and return to Israel proper.

Why do they have to return to Israel?

[spurgistan]

He refuses to tell the Israelis that the settlements in Palestine must end

Not in those exact words, but yes he has.

There is no such place as Palestine. The Roman emperor, Hadrian renamed Judea as Palestine (which means Philistine Land) to tick off the Jews.

He told them to stop building new ones. He never to them to stop and return to Israel proper.

Why do they have to return to Israel?

Because illegal settlements are one of the principal points of Palestinian distrust of the peace process?

[luns101]

He refuses to tell the Israelis that the settlements in Palestine must end

Not in those exact words, but yes he has.

There is no such place as Palestine. The Roman emperor, Hadrian renamed Judea as Palestine (which means Philistine Land) to tick off the Jews.

He told them to stop building new ones. He never to them to stop and return to Israel proper.

So, just to be clear. You are willing to withdraw your support for President Obama (partly) because he did not use the exact words, "I'm telling you Israelis that the settlements in Palestine must end. Stop building new ones. Return to Israel proper."

I don't agree with President Obama's position on this issue, but if your criticism of him is that he's refusing to convey that message to the Israeli government because of the language he used, then how deep was your support for the man to start out with?

I'm sure Netanhayu got the message.

[mpjh]

Yes Netty babe got the message -- he can roll this president just like he has all the others.

[jay_a2j]

He refuses to tell the Israelis that the settlements in Palestine must end

Not in those exact words, but yes he has.

There is no such place as Palestine. The Roman emperor, Hadrian renamed Judea as Palestine (which means Philistine Land) to tick off the Jews.

He told them to stop building new ones. He never to them to stop and return to Israel proper.

Why do they have to return to Israel?

Because illegal settlements are one of the principal points of Palestinian distrust of the peace process?

Illegal settlements? How about, "spoils of war". Otherwise we'd have to call Boston, NY and Philadelphia illegal settlements.


I say Israel gives up NO land for peace. How about "You stop killing Israelis, and we won't unleash our superior military on you." Or we could trust the Ezekiel Option.

[Nobunaga]

[quote="spurgistan
Because illegal settlements are one of the principal points of Palestinian distrust of the peace process?[/quote]

... Those damned illegal immigrants again.

...

[john9blue]

Maybe we should use Einstein's relativity theory here...

Whatever you believe to be correct, you're going to see as normal. That's why jay insists the Democrats are loonies, and PLAYER think they are near the center, and Maher thinks they are right of center.

You can't call something "left" or "right" just by what it stands for alone. You have to take the current political context into account. The Democrats define the left in America. Maybe you think they've moved right over the past few decades, but calling them center is wrong by definition. It leads to a lot of confusion when people with two entirely different frames of reference try to hold a conversation.

[Frigidus]

Maybe we should use Einstein's relativity theory here...

Whatever you believe to be correct, you're going to see as normal. That's why jay insists the Democrats are loonies, and PLAYER think they are near the center, and Maher thinks they are right of center.

You can't call something "left" or "right" just by what it stands for alone. You have to take the current political context into account. The Democrats define the left in America. Maybe you think they've moved right over the past few decades, but calling them center is wrong by definition. It leads to a lot of confusion when people with two entirely different frames of reference try to hold a conversation.

So you would say that the Nazis were moderate right because they weren't considered extremists by the Germans?

[john9blue]

So you would say that the Nazis were moderate right because they weren't considered extremists by the Germans?

In the German political environment of the time, sure.

I'm just sick of people trying to claim that their views are "normal" or "average" when they obviously are not.

[BigBallinStalin]

Not in those exact words, but yes he has.

There is no such place as Palestine. The Roman emperor, Hadrian renamed Judea as Palestine (which means Philistine Land) to tick off the Jews.

He told them to stop building new ones. He never to them to stop and return to Israel proper.

Why do they have to return to Israel?

Because illegal settlements are one of the principal points of Palestinian distrust of the peace process?

1) Illegal settlements? How about, "spoils of war". Otherwise we'd have to call Boston, NY and Philadelphia illegal settlements.


2) I say Israel gives up NO land for peace. How about "You stop killing Israelis, and we won't unleash our superior military on you." Or we could trust the Ezekiel Option.

1) There aren't any UN resolutions forbidding our country's continued "settlement" of lands, which are legally ours and have been more or less since the founding of proto-USA, as it were.

2) Sure, it's always a good idea to increase anti-American sentiment and feed the fuel for terrorism directed at us by supporting Israel's illicit actions.

However, Obama had my hopes slightly up, then Hillary drags them back down, oh wait and then Netanyahu holds a talk with Obama, and then the hopes goes down a little bit more... Hopefully, maybe this time will be different.

[Aradhus]

Maybe we should use Einstein's relativity theory here...

Whatever you believe to be correct, you're going to see as normal. That's why jay insists the Democrats are loonies, and PLAYER think they are near the center, and Maher thinks they are right of center.

You can't call something "left" or "right" just by what it stands for alone. You have to take the current political context into account. The Democrats define the left in America. Maybe you think they've moved right over the past few decades, but calling them center is wrong by definition. It leads to a lot of confusion when people with two entirely different frames of reference try to hold a conversation.

Democrats don't define anything. If politicians held the exact same views as the majority of their constituents, then yes maybe you're kinda sorta correct, but they don't, so you're not.

Jay is batshit crazy, he's a religious fanatic with whacko extreme views. There is a political spectrum, a scale, something you can measure politics within society and government etc. The Us has been steadily creeping right for years.

[alex951]

I personally believe (and I think the facts bear this out) that the president has little effect on the economy (whether the president is Bush or Obama)

i think the president does effect the economy in one way or another. for example the great depression the dam fool did nothing to stop it.

[alex951]

i made this for you mpjh

[mpjh]

Although his decision on Afghanistan may develop into a spine -- we will see.

[Nobunaga]

:lol:

Although his decision on Afghanistan may develop into a spine -- we will see.

... Sure, the House vote on Healthcare is done.

...

[HapSmo19]

He has not ended don't ask don't tell

Hey, somebody name a positive that can come from this(ending it).

Go.