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How to manipulate points:

Postby Georgerx7di on Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:20 pm

This thread is in part a response to the threads on farming.

There are many ways to manipulate points. As anyone will tell you, to increase your rank you not only need to play well, but you also have to limit your game selection. For example, if you pick any general in the game right now, and have them play 50 public sequential terminator games with say 5 or 6 players, and not play anything else to supplement the point loss, they would no longer be a general, probably not even a brig.

So, it's safe to say that to move up the scoreboard you cannot just be a good players, you must also manipulate points. I will list several ways. Part of the reason for this is that people keep complaining about farming. I do not farm, but at the same time I don't see any reason to complain about it, as anyone above say major, has probably done things to manipulate points, or just happens to like the setting that help you move up.

I would like to not before I continue, that points don't mean everything, but they do mean something. Not everyone can make General, but at the same time some who play well enough to make General, have not. At any given moment, the best player on the site could be a major, or even lower if he is playing freestyle doodle to get a medal.

So here is the list of how to manipulate points.

1. Private games: In private games you can avoid loosing 100 points in a game. You can insure that you get more than 4 points from your opponent if you win. There are many former conquerors who are majors or captains (it is my firm belief that the best players will level off between captain and colonel if they just play whatever games and settings they feel like). Private games can avoid you having a noob in a 6 player std. esc. game attack you and cause you to loose, something that can happen for no reason in a public game.

2. Avoid high ranked partners: As I have said, majors are usually as skilled as generals, (i.e. depends on the individual), so if you team with Generals (I have many times), you don't usually gain many points. Better to team with majors and get the the skilled partner for half the cost.

3. Team with low ranks: You can find a skilled players who's dropped rank going for a medal, and is a sergeant and play with him and get the skills at an extreme discount. Another option is to play with low ranks who do what you tell them. I admit that I do this, I teach a lot new players how to play dubs and in the process get the low points on my side.

4. Play trips and quads: In trips and quads you have enough turns on your side to overcome a lot of bad dice. Your high ranked team can even play 3 stripers, lt's and captains, (the guys you don't get much points off of because of the ratio of points/skill on their side). And often times 3 stripes and Lt's aren't coordinated enough to win trips and quads. This was the method of choice to make conqueror before the speed setting came out.

5. Farming: New recruits have a 1,000 points, and yet their skill level could be at 300 or 400 points. Not all, but some. Plus many deadbeat. So the average points/skill ration is really good to play against over a large number of games. This is exacerbated if you play freestyle speed because almost no question marks will have clickies in addiction to not understanding map and game. This a popular way right now to make conqueror. Note: you can play against others and make conqueror, if you know your map and are fast enough with clickies, although some do foe other fast players.

6. Foeing: This method I really don't like, but I had to put it on the list. If there are 5 or 10 people who are the best at what you play, and they maintain a medium or low rank, then they will take points whenever they play you. I once had a player say that if I joined his freestyle speed 1v1 again that he would foe me. I was hunting for assasin medal and was a sergeant I think, at the time. He said "I don't play skilled lower ranks" :lol:

7. Playing games with minimum points: Often times high ranks will ask for dubs teams with equal points, so that they can win or loose 20 points. After all, if 2 generals team together and play 2 majors, after 10 or 20 games the generals will have lost points, unless the majors happen to be clueless at settings or map.

Also you can have 6 players games like in the 2,000+ thread or the 2,500+ thread. I join these some times. You don't join these games for the skilled competition, you join them for the points. No brig is going to go join 20 or 30 public 6 player singles games and not loose points.

(notice I always say over a number of games. Obviously in one or two games the higher rank can win 1 or both games, but over a large number of games the points spread is too much to overcome in a game that is partially based on luck).



So what am I trying to say here. Well mainly, its doesn't make sense to criticize how people get there points. Anyone who consistently maintains a rank above captain or colonel does at least one of these or something similar, so why criticize what method they use. The moment you start making private games because you can't get your points any higher in public games, then you are manipulating points.

I apologize to anyone who may be offended, I'm not saying anyone is wrong for what they are doing, I'm just pointing out that this is the way to get above major, we all know it. You don't go joining public escalating singles games and make brig. You don't make brig by playing ass doodle. It just doesn't happen. Being able to get to general does show skill, but it doesn't neccesarily mean that you are more skilled than a colonel.

Examples:

Big Whiskey is a captain, does that mean that he has gotten worse at the game since he was a general and #8 on the scoreboard? Of course not, he is clearly one of the best in the game. It just means that he plays whatever games and settings that he wants now.

sjnap is a major. Did he suddenly loose his skills, he was conqueror for a good amount of time. No, he just plays different games, different settings and so one. He is still a great player, one of the best, but he is just not focused on points anymore.

JOHNNYROCKET24 is a major. Here's another former conqueror.

karelpietertje is a major. Another former conqueror.

alstergren is a colonel. Another former conqueror.

Blitzaholic is a colonel. He was conqueror with something close to a 1,000 point lead over second place if I'm not mistaken. Did he forget how to play? No, he just stopped playing all trips with his team.

All of these are great players, notice how they have leveled off to somewhere around major, some have dipped down to striper while playing certain settings and game types.

Bottom line, its impressive to be able to reach a rank, but there has to be some point manipulation to do it. You can't play top players who have lost all of their points, you can't play public terminator, you can't play small maps, you can't team with generals in dubs consistently.

Anyone at the top knows that you have to play with someone to tell if they are good, and any major could be the best player on the site. So there's no reason to keep complaining about how people get there points. I believe that there is enough luck in in this game that you cannot move above major and stay there consistently for a long time, without manipulating points.

If anyone wants to prove me wrong, play public terminator games. Play public doubles games with a partner who has over 4,000 points. And play them all with sequential turns. You simply cannot play these types of settings repeatedly and stay over 3,000 points.

I believe that all high ranks will agree with this.
Last edited by Georgerx7di on Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to manipulate points:

Postby ronsizzle on Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:33 pm

yeah, bw is a deal right now!

the best dubs player i have ever played with...
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Re: How to manipulate points:

Postby jaimito101 on Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:55 pm

damn george, writting 2 pages to explain this, guess it really bothers you!

just like ranking the stars, the best seldomly ends up 1rst

an idea would be to have different rankings, sequential, freestyle should be seperated for sure, furthermore you could have team, individual, trips, quads within each field... while more accurate... I doubnt the latter will be implemented, as it will end up in too many leader boards.

a freestyle-sequential split though should be possible! and implemented asap!
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Re: How to manipulate points:

Postby Georgerx7di on Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:13 pm

jaimito101 wrote:damn george, writting 2 pages to explain this, guess it really bothers you!

just like ranking the stars, the best seldomly ends up 1rst

an idea would be to have different rankings, sequential, freestyle should be seperated for sure, furthermore you could have team, individual, trips, quads within each field... while more accurate... I doubnt the latter will be implemented, as it will end up in too many leader boards.

a freestyle-sequential split though should be possible! and implemented asap!


yes but it would be very difficult. You could drive down your score in ass doodle and then win some seq. esc. games gaining 25 - 40 points from each player, and claim to be great at it. We would need separate scores for each setting too. That's why its meaningless to some degree when someone says that they are +8,000 points on some map, they have to be minus a few thousand on several others.

Also why a player who is +2,000 on a map doesn't neccesarily have the skills to be +3,000 overall. They would not be +2,000 if they only played that map because the points they get would be less each game as their rank went up, ofc.
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Re: How to manipulate points:

Postby happy2seeyou on Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:32 pm

Nice novel, been hanging out with Fitz lately?
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Re: How to manipulate points:

Postby Chuuuuck on Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:39 pm

Obviously I agree, but you shouldn't give away all of our secrets!

Haha, just for fun I went and checked. I have 17 games and only 2 of them are public and both of those I chose to join and invite the rest of the players in.... so, in reality, 0 plublic games.
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Re: How to manipulate points:

Postby karelpietertje on Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:33 pm

No need to put my rank in the spotlights like that george :oops:
:lol:
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Re: How to manipulate points:

Postby Georgerx7di on Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:17 pm

karelpietertje wrote:No need to put my rank in the spotlights like that george :oops:
:lol:


Lol, sorry bud.
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Re: How to manipulate points:

Postby demonfork on Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:42 am

IDK if I would necessarily call it "point manipulation" but more developing an overall cc strategy.

When I made it to #1, it just didn't happen one day out of the blue or because I was necessarily the best player that was just able to win a lot. I had an actual "conqueror strategy" that took close to a year from the moment that I decided that I wanted to be conqueror until the day that I became conqueror.

Besides solid game play...This strategy involved more than one might think (not that I'm going to give away all of my "secrets") things like...

Discipline
Regulating amount of active games
Time of day/night that I played certain maps or settings
Abstaining from certain game settings
Abstaining from certain maps
Knowing a map so well that all it took to win the game was 1 mistake by an opponent.
Public image (yes actually manipulating how other cc'ers perceive me) it was no mistake that my daily post count went up in proportion to my rank going up.
and much much more.

I recently had a player tell me something along the lines of "go take your fast computer back to speed games and farm some more noobs".

It's funny to me how many cc'ers Ive come across that believe that all it takes to be #1 is a "fast computer" or only playing "difficult settings" or "taking advantage" of lower ranked players or the "double turn" (funny that i made conqueror AFTER the double turn was eliminated) or 50 other retarded excuses for why my score was higher and theirs wasn't.

I guess the point of all of this and the point that I think that George is trying to make is that higher ranked players are just smarter than you and are basically better than you....there is a reason why you will never make it higher than captain...there is a reason why you always need to find excuses why player "x" is higher on the scoreboard than you... its not because of the unfair rules or freestyle or fast computers...it's because you suck and you are just not very good at this game.
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Re: How to manipulate points:

Postby Mr Changsha on Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:08 am

demonfork wrote:
I recently had a player tell me something along the lines of "go take your fast computer back to speed games and farm some more noobs".



A player... that was me! Mr C!

'tis rare to get a rise out of me but you managed it...credit to you for that at least. I still think you made the wrong move by the way, though it looks like I'm getting the worst of it. Ah well...there is always another game, another numerical destruction to be had.

With regards to George, great post..really enjoyed reading it. Very comprehensive and I agreed with most, if not all, of the substance.

I would add in The Specialist: those that massively limit their game selection to one style and maybe a few maps. Fruitcake is a very high ranking example of this breed, Robinette is another that springs to mind. While I've managed to aquire points from various styles (dubs, trips, standard, speed) I still do it on a very minimal map selection. It is certainly a tried and trusted method to break past 2500. I would think Thai Robert would also fall into this category with his freestyle 2.1 play.

I would also agree with some of your choices listed as truly great players. Those that can play all the maps, all the styles and well are without doubt the true greats of CC Land. The specialists merely attempt (and in the case of my game with demonfork quite possibly fail) to dominate a small part of the overall picture. Nonetheless, if one wants to talk about how to manipulate points, the method of strictly limiting one's game selection should certainly be up there.

By the way, in my view the easiest way to make points is to pick on those high ranking trips teams with a couple of stripers. Even now I get about 28 points for a win (and my partners are around the 1600-1800 range)...when I was a major with a couple of corporals I used to pick up 40+ points, lose squat. Great way to manipulate the scoring system and has the added benefit of actually increasing you equalitarian status: I think I'm around 1.3 for trips!! I deemed it 'reverse farming' after about 1 game and my chaps here in China still call me up and say "Fancy a bit of reverse farming?"
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Re: How to manipulate points:

Postby elfish_lad on Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:44 am

Very interesting post George. One of the most thought out descriptions of ranking up that I've read here at CC. A very thorough treatise. Having not been above a captain (and not being able yet to hold even that for long) I don't have any basis to agree or disagree with your points in the specific. But they make sense from a commonsensical point of view. One of the things I derived from your post was this: on top of skill, and intellect, and experience... it takes hard work, focus and selectivity. Again, like anyone wanting to be in the top levels of their selected endeavor, that makes sense.

I think about the athletes coming here to Vancouver for the winter games. I'm sure they will all work hard and many will enjoy themselves and maybe even beat their personal best in this event or that. But then there will be the elite. They will be focused. They will have come in with a work ethic that has prepared them for the moment. And they will push and work the system to the best of their abilities. And they will be damn good.

Your post also gives me insight into why I play what I play here at CC: because I enjoy it. Even if that means I'm a sergeant for the rest of my time here. I'm good with that.

Thanks again for the time and thought you put into this, I'm sure I will read it again in the future.

Cheers.

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Re: How to manipulate points:

Postby vodean on Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:49 am

demonfork wrote:I recently had a player tell me something along the lines of "go take your fast computer back to speed games and farm some more noobs".

It's funny to me how many cc'ers Ive come across that believe that all it takes to be #1 is a "fast computer" or only playing "difficult settings" or "taking advantage" of lower ranked players or the "double turn" (funny that i made conqueror AFTER the double turn was eliminated) or 50 other retarded excuses for why my score was higher and theirs wasn't.

I guess the point of all of this and the point that I think that George is trying to make is that higher ranked players are just smarter than you and are basically better than you....there is a reason why you will never make it higher than captain...there is a reason why you always need to find excuses why player "x" is higher on the scoreboard than you... its not because of the unfair rules or freestyle or fast computers...it's because you suck and you are just not very good at this game.

actually, i could never get a speed medal, much less become conqueror off of it, because the internet is so slow. even 1v1 freestyle, casual, this other guy was in the states, on broadband, and i was stuck with ethiopian-slower-than-dial-up, so he probably was better, but i tried to attack him, and by the time it loaded, he was 5 territs further down.
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Re: How to manipulate points:

Postby Robinette on Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:41 am

Mr Changsha wrote:I would add in The Specialist: those that massively limit their game selection to one style and maybe a few maps. Fruitcake is a very high ranking example of this breed, Robinette is another that springs to mind.


Damn it... you listed me 2nd.... i'm NEVER 1st at anything... :D

And Mr.C, you overlook one small detail...
not all specialists do so to have a point advantage.



anyway... nice post George... very nice...

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Re: How to manipulate points:

Postby Army of GOD on Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:46 am

Robinette wrote:
Mr Changsha wrote:I would add in The Specialist: those that massively limit their game selection to one style and maybe a few maps. Fruitcake is a very high ranking example of this breed, Robinette is another that springs to mind.


Damn it... you listed me 2nd.... i'm NEVER 1st at anything... :D

And Mr.C, you overlook one small detail...
not all specialists do so to have a point advantage.



anyway... nice post George... very nice...

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Re: How to manipulate points:

Postby vodean on Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:59 am

Army of GOD wrote:
Robinette wrote:
Mr Changsha wrote:I would add in The Specialist: those that massively limit their game selection to one style and maybe a few maps. Fruitcake is a very high ranking example of this breed, Robinette is another that springs to mind.


Damn it... you listed me 2nd.... i'm NEVER 1st at anything... :D

And Mr.C, you overlook one small detail...
not all specialists do so to have a point advantage.



anyway... nice post George... very nice...

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over that? really? it had better be glue, or i am crazy
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Re: How to manipulate points:

Postby max is gr8 on Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:54 pm

Yes playing 8 Player Terminator Game only made me reach 2377... though I was still on my way up a mass deadbeat sent me flying down. I think I would have reached 2600 tops. I was still on my way up but no way near.

EDIT: According to MapRank I would be on 3614 if I just played 8 player terminator... but I think that's wrong
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Re: How to manipulate points:

Postby Georgerx7di on Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:27 pm

max is gr8 wrote:Yes playing 8 Player Terminator Game only made me reach 2377... though I was still on my way up a mass deadbeat sent me flying down. I think I would have reached 2600 tops. I was still on my way up but no way near.

EDIT: According to MapRank I would be on 3614 if I just played 8 player terminator... but I think that's wrong



According to map rank you have won 3,614 points. You would not be up 3,614 points if you only played that though. As your score continues up the number of points you gain goes down. Knocking your score back down in other settings allows you to continue to gain points in this setting.

If you only played this setting you would eventually reach an equilibrium point where your score stay with a small range with no overall change in score. As a sergeant you can go get another 1,000 points on this setting, but you couldn't do it if you were a brig right now.

btw, I hit colonel myself playing public terminator, but could not maintain it consistently. Seems like I would stay between about 2,000 and 2,600 or something like that. That's why I used the phrase "consistently maintain" in my OP. I've seen guys make colonel off of freestyle speed ass doodle, but they would not maintain it, they would spend a lot of time as a striper.
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Re: How to manipulate points:

Postby maasman on Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:29 pm

I will agree with everything you said. I have found that playing private games recently, I don't have to even try very hard to maintain above 2200 points anymore as long as I keep playing them. I got to colonel by only playing private games, and clan war games. Made it much easier than playing with everyone on CC.
And the finding that I'm pretty good at 6-8 player esc. games.
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Re: How to manipulate points:

Postby pearljamrox2 on Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:55 pm

The topic should have been, "How to pick your battles", not "How to manipulate points". I don't see being selective with your games as manipulating points. You still have to win the games. Manipulating points would be like this. Say I have 2 games almost over with. In the 1st game, I am playing the conqueror, and I am going to win the game on this turn. In the 2nd game, I am playing a cook and he is going to win the game on this turn. So, I would wait until the cook kills me in the 2nd game, before taking my victory. If i killed the conqueror first, it would spike my points up, so the cook would take more points from me in his victory over me. If the cook kills me first..I have fewer points when i kill the conqueror, which may give me more points for the kill. THAT is manipulating points!!!!
Being selective in the games you choose is just great strategy. Every game you join, you are risking your points. If you are a person who has a goal, or attach some kind of pride to your points currently, then you should be very selective with what situations you put yourself into. Each persons strategy for hoarding their points is going to be different based on their skill level and personal preferences. The point of having a points system is for you to keep your points and take other peoples. That's what you are suppose to do. Winning and losing aren't the only factors that come in to play when determining who gets how many points. The game type and the opponent also matter, and you do have some control over who and where.
In relation to farming, which is banned because its bad for recruits and the site, yes, farming is a tactic for gaining points. But it's a cheap tactic. Maybe some of the other ways are cheap to some degree too. But, the systematic preying on recruits is as cheap as it gets when it comes to ways to get points. I can easily understand why so many people don't have much respect for the accomplishments of players who employ such a strategy. There is nothing wrong with playing against recruits, they gotta play against somebody...and the term farming is thrown around quite liberally. But there is no doubt some players have risen to great heights preying on the weak or deadbeats. I guess it goes back to what i said about strategy having to do with skill level and preferences. If you want to be conqueror, and you don't want to have to beat any good experienced players along the way. If you like hollow victories and easy wins, and can't put much thought into it...you farm.
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Re: How to manipulate points:

Postby AAFitz on Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:32 pm

Nice to have it all in one place, and it is really obvious to any that have ever gotten very high on the scoreboard at all...but still amusing to see others not actually believe it.

While I hardly have been as high as those players, I did get up to 17 at one point with 3390 or something....and very quickly dropped to 1200 or so...went back up to 3k, and back down to 1200...and did it another time. Now, I hover around major myself. I think its the most fun rank of them all, really.
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Re: How to manipulate points:

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:21 pm

Hey, an interesting read. I've known about these for awhile from just reading the DRAMA on here, but it's nice to have it in an easy-to-follow formula for anyone who wants to take this Path of Buggers. :D
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