ObamaCare - exchanges ,report your states options!

[Titanic]

if they use reconciliation, there will be blood. America's entire history will be at stake. The fillibuster must be respected. Obama wouldn't dare. Look how he buckled on Afghanistan. This one's a no brainer. 61% of Americans are against it, and their gonna ram it thru reconciliation?


I almost want to take that bet...

The filibuster has been abused. If I remember right, it was only meant to be used in extreme cases for major reasons, yet the Republicans now use it for every single bill going through Congress that they don't like. Also 61% of Americans are not against it, 61% of the Senate is and the Senate is not a proportional representation.

[rockfist]

61% of Americans want the bill dropped according to Rasmussen. Its 56% or so that oppose it, presumably 5% of those who want it dropped like the bill and believe its a lost cause or will cause more political harm to the Democrats than the good it will do but either way...

Its 41% or so of the Senate that doesn't like it.

[Titanic]

61% of Americans want the bill dropped according to Rasmussen. Its 56% or so that oppose it, presumably 5% of those who want it dropped like the bill and believe its a lost cause or will cause more political harm to the Democrats than the good it will do but either way...

Its 41% or so of the Senate that doesn't like it.

Ramussen by there polling is at the high end compared to some others - http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/healthplan.php

Sorry about the Senate remark, my maths and clear thinking was miles away there.

[rockfist]

That still shows a good portion more in opposition rather than support and a fairly consistant trend for that.

[Titanic]

That still shows a good portion more in opposition rather than support and a fairly consistant trend for that.

Not really. The opposing only really went ahead constantly from about November/December time. Theres quite a few times in there that the supporters have leads greater then 10 or 15 points. I think most the people opposed to it is down to them not actually knowing what the bill is about and only getting there information from one source or one side of the picture. There was a report that only 23% of people thought that the bill will reduce their healthcare costs or the deficit (can't remember which one), when in reality if the public actually knew what was in it that number should be 100%.

[rockfist]

It is the fault of the people who crafted the bill that its not understood. Its over 2,000 FUCKING PAGES!

It will not reduce the deficit and if you understood the math you would know that. The way the Democrats get it to "reduce the deficit" is through fiscal shenanigans. The increased spending on health care does not kick in until 2012 and in some cases 2014. The tax increases are right away. The CBO only does 10 year estimates for the impact of bills thus we have ten years of increased taxes and only 7 or in some cases 5 years of increased expenditures. The CBO also assumes that ALL the Medicare cuts actually take place, which has never actually happened.

This is how stupid the Democrats are. If they pass an already unpopular bill through reconciliation, where the taxes kick in right away but people get no benefit from it they could very well lose EVERY senate seat in 2010 and 2012.

Polls by moveon.org do not count. Every single neutral poll is showing more people opposed to it than supporting it and have for some time.

[Titanic]

There isnt a single moveon.org poll in that list, there are pretty much all from respected institutions (although Fox is in there a lot). Some of the polls from Gallup and kaiser from this month (12th Jan) show more in favour then against.

I agree that the congressmen face some of the fault over the bill not being explained properly (the length is no problem, its a large bill so it has to take a lot of pages) but I think the crux of the problem is with the media who really have not reported it properly. MSNBC and Fox just gave their own views on it and the other channels just invite 1 person from each side on to give their views and never challenge them so its just 2 fabricated stories against each other(gross generalisation but not far off from the truth). I think the NY Times gave one of the best articles on it (on the web) where they analysed the house and senate bill into about 8 different categories and stated every single difference between the bills with the most important and crucial ones listed of bill listed at the top of the page.

It will reduce the deficit as it will reduce the costs of healthcare. Take into accouny preventative care, the fact that 50m people will now be treated at early stages rather then in A&E, with the public option healthcare costs overall will dramatically drop etc...

Also I don't think the Democrats are going to get murdered at the elections. Healthcare is not going to be a big issue come November, the economy and Wall Street is and Obama is finally fighting Wall Street and the economy will be picking up by the end of the year. This will probably steady out his polls or increase them if it picks up quicker and the elections might be favourable to the Republicans (if they actually have a general message by that point rather then a group of people all still fighting to be its mouthpiece), but not a whitewash.

[rockfist]

Shit like this bill does not need to be near as complicated as it is for example the state of Lousiana gets a special perk for Medicare (to buy Mary Landreau's vote of course), but instead of saying Louisiana gets this...the bill describes states that are eligible for the perk in a way that excludes all other states but includes Louisiana, which takes six pages to do...they do this shit so that we the people can't read the whole bill and understand it. They could make it so much easier but then people might catch on to some of the things they do.

I agree healthcare is not going to be a big issue in November. It isn't now - and that is the Democrats problem. The Democrats spent all this time talking about a healthcare bill that has at best 50% support when the public wanted them focused on jobs - that's why they are in trouble.

[Titanic]

Shit like this bill does not need to be near as complicated as it is for example the state of Lousiana gets a special perk for Medicare (to buy Mary Landreau's vote of course), but instead of saying Louisiana gets this...the bill describes states that are eligible for the perk in a way that excludes all other states but includes Louisiana, which takes six pages to do...they do this shit so that we the people can't read the whole bill and understand it. They could make it so much easier but then people might catch on to some of the things they do.

I agree healthcare is not going to be a big issue in November. It isn't now - and that is the Democrats problem. The Democrats spent all this time talking about a healthcare bill that has at best 50% support when the public wanted them focused on jobs - that's why they are in trouble.

The medicare extension was like the last thing to be put in the bill. The reason the bill is worded differently is to prevent loopholes and to stop companies or people exploiting it because the wording may be unclear. There is so much change in the bill that it is not a surprise it is so long.

The Democrats are finally focussing on Wall Street now (they've been focussing on the economy for ages) which is what a lot of people want and a key reason that they lost in Massachusetts.

[Phatscotty]

Canadian Premier Williams is coming to the USA for his heart surgery. Isnt that the same guy who said in the past, repeatedly...

Any Health Care available in the USA is available in Canada

fastforward to 2010, Canadian Premier Williams, upon needing health care himself....

I can't get the Health Care I need in Canada

[2dimes]

I don't doubt this happens less and less, in fact it could be completely false but.. I have heard of Americans coming here for health care. I can't imagine why but I have heard of it.

[Phatscotty]

I don't doubt this happens less and less, in fact it could be completely false but.. I have heard of Americans coming here for health care. I can't imagine why but I have heard of it.

perhaps. it isnt false I gave you a specific person, todays date. I would never risk my credibility like that.

[2dimes]

Where?

[Phatscotty]

Where?

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2510700

ST. JOHN'S, N.L. -- Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams will undergo heart surgery later this week in the United States.

Deputy premier Kathy Dunderdale confirmed the treatment at a news conference Tuesday, but would not reveal the location of the operation or how it would be paid for.

"He has gone to a renowned expert in the procedure that he needs to have done," said Ms. Dunderdale, who will become acting premier while Mr. Williams is away for three to 12 weeks.

"In consultation with his own doctors, he's decided to go that route."

Mr. Williams' decision to leave Canada for the surgery has raised eyebrows over his apparent shunning of Canada's health-care system.

"It was never an option offered to him to have this procedure done in this province," said Ms. Dunderdale, refusing to answer whether the procedure could be done elsewhere in Canada.

Mr. Williams, 59, has said nothing of his health in the media.

"The premier has made a commitment that once he's through this procedure and he's well enough, he's going to talk about the whole process and share as much detail with you as he's comfortable to do at that time," she said.

Ms. Dunderdale wouldn't say where in the U.S. Mr. Williams is seeking treatment.

A popular Progressive Conservative premier, Mr. Williams has also seen his share of controversy. During the 2008 federal election, Mr. Williams vehemently opposed the Conservative government, launching his "Anything But Conservative" -- which has been credited with keeping the Tories from winning any seats in the province.

He's also drawn criticism for his support of the seal hunt.

[2dimes]

That guy's American? Looks like he's heading home for health care then.

[rockfist]

[Baron Von PWN]

Canadian Premier Williams is coming to the USA for his heart surgery. Isnt that the same guy who said in the past, repeatedly...

Any Health Care available in the USA is available in Canada

fastforward to 2010, Canadian Premier Williams, upon needing health care himself....

I can't get the Health Care I need in Canada

Is that actually a quote from Danny Williams? As far as I know he hasn't spoken to the media about whatever is ailing him yet.

It's standard procedure in Canada that if a patient has a very specific problem requiring a specialist the gov will make sure you get access to that specialist even if it means going outside of the country. sometimes this means the US sometimes it means Europe all depends on the circumstances. In the Premier's case we don't know the details he and his staff have declined to give them. He might just not want to wait and so he bought the procedure in the US or it might be a rare case that needs a very specific kind of specialist.

he is a very popular politician it will be interesting to see how this will play out in Newfoundland & Labrador.

[Phatscotty]

Canadian Premier Williams is coming to the USA for his heart surgery. Isnt that the same guy who said in the past, repeatedly...

Any Health Care available in the USA is available in Canada

fastforward to 2010, Canadian Premier Williams, upon needing health care himself....

I can't get the Health Care I need in Canada

Is that actually a quote from Danny Williams? As far as I know he hasn't spoken to the media about whatever is ailing him yet.

It's standard procedure in Canada that if a patient has a very specific problem requiring a specialist the gov will make sure you get access to that specialist even if it means going outside of the country. sometimes this means the US sometimes it means Europe all depends on the circumstances. In the Premier's case we don't know the details he and his staff have declined to give them. He might just not want to wait and so he bought the procedure in the US or it might be a rare case that needs a very specific kind of specialist.

he is a very popular politician it will be interesting to see how this will play out in Newfoundland & Labrador.

when you say "wait" it sounds like "oh that's just the way it is in Canada, ya know?" like you always have to wait.....for heart surgery? How long is that wait? holy shit is everything ok up there?

[Baron Von PWN]

Canadian Premier Williams is coming to the USA for his heart surgery. Isnt that the same guy who said in the past, repeatedly...

Any Health Care available in the USA is available in Canada

fastforward to 2010, Canadian Premier Williams, upon needing health care himself....

I can't get the Health Care I need in Canada

Is that actually a quote from Danny Williams? As far as I know he hasn't spoken to the media about whatever is ailing him yet.

It's standard procedure in Canada that if a patient has a very specific problem requiring a specialist the gov will make sure you get access to that specialist even if it means going outside of the country. sometimes this means the US sometimes it means Europe all depends on the circumstances. In the Premier's case we don't know the details he and his staff have declined to give them. He might just not want to wait and so he bought the procedure in the US or it might be a rare case that needs a very specific kind of specialist.

he is a very popular politician it will be interesting to see how this will play out in Newfoundland & Labrador.

when you say "wait" it sounds like "oh that's just the way it is in Canada, ya know?" like you always have to wait.....for heart surgery? How long is that wait? holy shit is everything ok up there?

it depends on the surgery, how urgent it is, where you live ect ect. My grandfather needed a heart procedure done and he was in an out of the hospital within a week, if it's not as life threatening it can take longer. Heart surgery wait times are actually pretty good as far as I know. The bad wait-lists are for non life threatening surgery like knee surgery and hip replacements.

Anyways seeing as we live longer and pay less for it than you guys down south, I think were doing just fine thanks.

[Phatscotty]

Canadian Premier Williams is coming to the USA for his heart surgery. Isnt that the same guy who said in the past, repeatedly...

Any Health Care available in the USA is available in Canada

fastforward to 2010, Canadian Premier Williams, upon needing health care himself....

I can't get the Health Care I need in Canada

Is that actually a quote from Danny Williams? As far as I know he hasn't spoken to the media about whatever is ailing him yet.

It's standard procedure in Canada that if a patient has a very specific problem requiring a specialist the gov will make sure you get access to that specialist even if it means going outside of the country. sometimes this means the US sometimes it means Europe all depends on the circumstances. In the Premier's case we don't know the details he and his staff have declined to give them. He might just not want to wait and so he bought the procedure in the US or it might be a rare case that needs a very specific kind of specialist.

he is a very popular politician it will be interesting to see how this will play out in Newfoundland & Labrador.

when you say "wait" it sounds like "oh that's just the way it is in Canada, ya know?" like you always have to wait.....for heart surgery? How long is that wait? holy shit is everything ok up there?

it depends on the surgery, how urgent it is, where you live ect ect. My grandfather needed a heart procedure done and he was in an out of the hospital within a week, if it's not as life threatening it can take longer. Heart surgery wait times are actually pretty good as far as I know. The bad wait-lists are for non life threatening surgery like knee surgery and hip replacements.

Anyways seeing as we live longer and pay less for it than you guys down south, I think were doing just fine thanks.

I eagerly anticipate a future post about your USA healthcare experience.

[Baron Von PWN]

I eagerly anticipate a future post about your USA healthcare experience.

I'm sure for people who actually get healthcare in the US it's great .

[Phatscotty]

I eagerly anticipate a future post about your USA healthcare experience.

I'm sure for people who actually get healthcare in the US it's great .

just drop a line when your in the area. I'm right by the Mayo Clinic.

[PLAYER57832]

Canadian Premier Williams is coming to the USA for his heart surgery. Isnt that the same guy who said in the past, repeatedly...

Any Health Care available in the USA is available in Canada

fastforward to 2010, Canadian Premier Williams, upon needing health care himself....

I can't get the Health Care I need in Canada

Is that actually a quote from Danny Williams? As far as I know he hasn't spoken to the media about whatever is ailing him yet.

It's standard procedure in Canada that if a patient has a very specific problem requiring a specialist the gov will make sure you get access to that specialist even if it means going outside of the country. sometimes this means the US sometimes it means Europe all depends on the circumstances. In the Premier's case we don't know the details he and his staff have declined to give them. He might just not want to wait and so he bought the procedure in the US or it might be a rare case that needs a very specific kind of specialist.

he is a very popular politician it will be interesting to see how this will play out in Newfoundland & Labrador.

when you say "wait" it sounds like "oh that's just the way it is in Canada, ya know?" like you always have to wait.....for heart surgery? How long is that wait? holy shit is everything ok up there?

For a reality check, try seeing how long an uninsured person has to wait here in the US...

OR what it costs most people who only think they have enough insurance, here in the US. Things have changed in the past year with the bank issues, but the year before it was still true that roughly 75% of bankruptcies came within 2 years of a serious medical issue. Paying for the healthcare might not have been the direct and immediate cause of a person losing their home, etc. However, it often set off a cascading set of issues.

[Phatscotty]

Canadian Premier Williams is coming to the USA for his heart surgery. Isnt that the same guy who said in the past, repeatedly...

Any Health Care available in the USA is available in Canada

fastforward to 2010, Canadian Premier Williams, upon needing health care himself....

I can't get the Health Care I need in Canada

Is that actually a quote from Danny Williams? As far as I know he hasn't spoken to the media about whatever is ailing him yet.

It's standard procedure in Canada that if a patient has a very specific problem requiring a specialist the gov will make sure you get access to that specialist even if it means going outside of the country. sometimes this means the US sometimes it means Europe all depends on the circumstances. In the Premier's case we don't know the details he and his staff have declined to give them. He might just not want to wait and so he bought the procedure in the US or it might be a rare case that needs a very specific kind of specialist.

he is a very popular politician it will be interesting to see how this will play out in Newfoundland & Labrador.

when you say "wait" it sounds like "oh that's just the way it is in Canada, ya know?" like you always have to wait.....for heart surgery? How long is that wait? holy shit is everything ok up there?

For a reality check, try seeing how long an uninsured person has to wait here in the US...

OR what it costs most people who only think they have enough insurance, here in the US. Things have changed in the past year with the bank issues, but the year before it was still true that roughly 75% of bankruptcies came within 2 years of a serious medical issue. Paying for the healthcare might not have been the direct and immediate cause of a person losing their home, etc. However, it often set off a cascading set of issues.

you CAN NOT be turned away from an emergency room....everything you said is a myth.

[bedub1]

Canadian Premier Williams is coming to the USA for his heart surgery. Isnt that the same guy who said in the past, repeatedly...

Any Health Care available in the USA is available in Canada

fastforward to 2010, Canadian Premier Williams, upon needing health care himself....

I can't get the Health Care I need in Canada

I was going to come post about this, but I'm glad you guys are already on top of it. This is just proof that the US DOES have the BEST healthcare system in the world.