Westward Expansion (formerly Manifest Destiny) pg. 2

[WestWind]

This map is on hold for the moment while I decide where exactly I want to take this. Discussion over this on page 2.

Click image to enlarge.

Alright, this is my first map, so have some patience

My main goal for this map is to create an expansive map of the American West that captures the essence of the massive territorial expansions of the 19th century. While regions/continents are still important in this map, equally important are the expeditions and trails that helped shape the history of the nation. In addition to the expansion and conquest theme, there are two additional elements that I want in the map: Native American Settlements and Hazards. My idea for the Native American Settlements is to have the capability to bombard any trail/expedition-linked territory within their region, thus hampering that expedition or trail. In addition, various Hazards in historically and strategically key locations provide additional obstacles, as they lower the troop count in that territory by 1 per turn. Combined with the natural obstacles of the map, this should make conquering the map a challenging and interesting pursuit.

Now for the basics of the map:

Territories: 51 total territories, with 8 neutrals, for a total of 43 starting territories.
Native American Territories: 4 Native American Territories that can bombard any trail-linked territory within their home region.
Hazard Territories: 4 hazardous territories that lower the troop count within that region by 1 troop per round.
Regions/Continents: 7 geographic regions, with varying degrees of risk/reward for holding that region.
Trails/Expeditions: 6 historically significant expeditions and trails, with their own challenges and rewards.
Barriers: A variety of natural barriers throughout the map.

I'm also going for an aesthetically pleasing and interesting map. So far I've added some example artistic "doodads" in various regions (Pikes Peak, Great Falls, Oraibi, etc.) to give you all an example of the direction I'm aiming for.

Now, I know I've just written quite a bit about this and showed a working draft of what I've done so far, but this by no means means I'm locked in to one particular direction. Most of the bonuses/regions/ideas are just rough sketches of what I'm aiming for, so feel free to tear any of that apart. I just wanted to get a good start to kind of illustrate what I'm going for. I'm open for any and all suggestions/revisions/criticism about any aspect of gameplay/graphics/theme. I don't mind revising at all, and I'm anxious to hear any ideas about this.

Now that all that's been said, what are the thoughts on this?

Previous Version:
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/1047/m ... nycopy.jpg Version 1
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/443/ ... oncopy.jpg Version 2
http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/8721 ... n1copy.jpg Version 3

[Industrial Helix]

I really like this. Nice work with the first draft!

I love the little drawings youhave all over the place and would like to see more. Especially a bridge drawing as the arrow is just lacking the feeling of the map.

I think its interesting how you've divided up this map and chose to move along the lines of geographical region, rather than the various purchases and claims that the United States made. Personally, I'd merge the two green areas and half of the purple into Louisiana Purchase. The remaining purple as Oregon. Merge modern day Nevada, New mexico and Arizona into it's own Mexican victory prize package. Expand Texas so that it looks more like the Texan Republic and leave California as it is. That break down of territories seems much more natural to me.

I do, however, like the Indian Element. You need to make those territories stand out much more than just listing them in the legend. Shouldn't Oraibi be included? Intuition tells me each region ought to have one.

I totally do not understand the chart... Perhaps something to do with superbonuses? Needs to clarification.

Anyway, its always nice to click on a new idea and see a nice draft ready to be looked at. I look forward to seeing this map make its way through to the Final Forge!

[WestWind]

Thanks! I like your idea for the regions, I think I'll do a little bit more research and see exactly where I could start drawing new lines. One of the problems I've run into so far is I'm trying to convey ~100 years of history with one map, and boundaries tend to shift. For the Native American Settlements and hazard areas, I was thinking of making a small universal symbol for each of the two categories so players know exactly where they are...I just haven't gotten around to it. Same with the bridges...I just threw those on today because I was wanted to post it online. Once I settle on a more permanent region distribution, I'll see about making sure each one has its own settlement, but Oraibi is listed as one, at least on the map

The chart was mainly a quick solution to showing how the trails work, and I had issues trying to convey all the information. Basically, you look at the trail and see how many consecutive (or contiguous) territories along that trail you control. Then you look at the chart and see what bonus you get for it. For example, if I held 5 continous territories along the Lewis and Clark trail I'd look at the chart and see I get a +2 bonus, and if I held the whole thing I'd get +9. I'll have to find a way to either re-vamp the system (because I'm not totally happy with it) or make it more clear.

Thanks for the feedback!

[ghirrindin]

I might be in the minority in saying this, but I would definitely NOT feel comfortable symbolically reenacting the brutal conquest of the US West. Some of the names you've put on here invoke tragedy and reflect a profound lack of sensitivity, for example Wounded Knee and Fort Snelling. Call me a PC crybaby or whatever, but just the sheer ideology behind the map makes me never want to touch it. At all.

[tvremote]

I like this map a lot, one of the better first drafts i've seen ( I lurk a lot lol).

As for the subject matter, if the crusades map was deemed acceptable as well as the Jamaica map, and the New World map, I think this is no worse than those.

[WestWind]

I might be in the minority in saying this, but I would definitely NOT feel comfortable symbolically reenacting the brutal conquest of the US West. Some of the names you've put on here invoke tragedy and reflect a profound lack of sensitivity, for example Wounded Knee and Fort Snelling. Call me a PC crybaby or whatever, but just the sheer ideology behind the map makes me never want to touch it. At all.

If I were glorifying it in any way, I would agree with you. I am in no way trying to do that, and if you have suggestions for how I could avoid doing that I would gladly follow them. The fact is that it DID happen, and it is an important part of our history. To me, refusing to center any creative process, be it writing, making a movie, whatever, around a period of time that contained tragic events, as long as it is done in a tasteful and respectful manner, is more disrespectful than anything. Like I said, I'll try my hardest to keep this map both tasteful, accurate, and respectful, and if you have any suggestions (other than not doing it) for doing so, I would gladly take them into consideration.

[Coleman]

Oh boy another North America map.

I think that about covers how I feel, you are a victim of bad timing.

[WestWind]

I can find only 4-5 maps in the entire Foundry with a sizeable amount of activity that are in/around NA. And they're all of different regions. I can't say I see the problem here.

[AndyDufresne]

Though Manifest Destiny is the term most people probably know, it carries with it a number of issues. Maybe Westward Expansion might be better, though maybe not since it feels too general an explanatory.


--Andy

[WestWind]

Though Manifest Destiny is the term most people probably know, it carries with it a number of issues. Maybe Westward Expansion might be better, though maybe not since it feels too general an explanatory.


--Andy

Alright, that's a change I can agree with. Manifest Destiny obviously carries a great deal of stigma, so let's ditch that. I think most people will know what Westward Expansion is about, since it's fairly well known. Also, I've changed the Wounded Knee territory to simply "The Massacres", since the area includes several well-known massacres (i.e. Wounded Knee and Little Big Horn).

So, before I actually start doing some major editing, how much actual interest is there in this? If the general reaction is "Ugh, not another NA map.", of if it's too "edgy" for the majority of CC players, I'll walk away and work on something different and more tame. However, I would like some feedback on this.

[natty dread]

An interesting angle: make the map from the indians' point of view. The evil white man is trying to take their lands, and you want to fight back. Give the players a chance to rewrite history.

Or at least, make the map so that you can play either the indians or the westerners, and either have equal chance of winning.

[WestWind]

An interesting angle: make the map from the indians' point of view. The evil white man is trying to take their lands, and you want to fight back. Give the players a chance to rewrite history.

Or at least, make the map so that you can play either the indians or the westerners, and either have equal chance of winning.

Alright, that's something I can play around with. I had thought about the second option when first designing the map, but thought it would be a little too much like New World. I like the first option a lot, but I don't want to make it too similar to First Nations of North America. Any suggestions, other than aesthetics and territory names, for how I can shift the perspective to the Native American side?

[natty dread]

>> how I can shift the perspective to the Native American side?

I'll have to think about this. I'll get back to you on this...

[MarshalNey]

I like this map's idea as it stands.

Let's not get too carried away here. Obviously war is terrible in all of its forms- even professional warriors will agree on that point. And atrocity is just a more extreme form of what is, in the end, people murdering each other with extreme prejudice. There are bound to be customers on this site that are going to be offended by any historical map, because these deal with real battles and real deaths.

Take for instance Arms Race. The very look and idea of that map sickened me, to make light of what was (and still is) the very real possibility of unleashing the most evil weapons invented by the human race. The queasy feeling I got just seeing it... well, you get the picture.

But then I told myself that I was probably reading a little too much into it, and I even played one game of it just to test myself (probably the only ever).

Now, obviously someone has felt strongly enough about the idea to do more than I did- they have posted something. And that's a good thing to get that out on the table.

But let's keep some perspective and not gut the entire idea- or even scrap the map. I don't think that would be fair, any more than I think it would be OK for me to demand that Arms Race change its theme to something less offensive. There are many, many players who find enjoyment on that map, and I think there are quite a few who would enjoy this map too.

I would recommend maybe expanding the role of the Native American territories, so that you can get bonuses for the westward trails or bonuses for uniting various tribes (and of course the bombard capability). If you name the territories by tribe instead of emotionally charged massacres or events, you'll hopefully avoid problems as well.

If that still causes controversy, I'd say just axe the Native American involvement altogether and replace it with other menaces- like troops of the powers that laid claim to the western territory during the 19th century, such as the Spanish, French, British (54'40" or fight!), and espcially the Mexicans.

But don't give up on this map, the trails and hazards are a great idea.

[Rih0]

I liked a lot the map. Keep the good job. Somethings to improve:

The bonus legend should match more with the territories color. Some things like texas aren't so easy to see.

Also, the routes are confusing with the river.

[Industrial Helix]

An interesting angle: make the map from the indians' point of view. The evil white man is trying to take their lands, and you want to fight back. Give the players a chance to rewrite history.

Or at least, make the map so that you can play either the indians or the westerners, and either have equal chance of winning.

You mean New World?

I don't think that that angle would be really much good for this map as at this point in time, the Natives really stood little chance of resisting the US. I'd say that their last hope died with Tecumseh.

Other General Comments:

I'd prefer Manifest Destiny as I don't find a whole lot of stigma with it. It's what the movement was called, I guess, might as well stick with it.

On the flip side, we're not exactly calling the Eastern Front WWII "Lebensraum."

And The Louisiana Purchase wasn't really Manifest Destiny either.

I think Marshall Ney is onto something in saying that there were plenty of other antagonists to the US westward expansion with the British or even the Mexicans. It's worth pulling them into the mix.

[WestWind]

Awesome, we've got some good discussion on this I'm working on revamping quite a bit for a second draft, which I'll post when I'm done. I'm trying to incorporate most of the major suggestions, mainly adding a greater 3rd party (i.e. Mexico and Britain) aspect, as well as an increased role for the Native Americans.

There's quite a bit of region shuffling going on, so this will take a respectable amount of time.

[WestWind]

Click image to enlarge.

Alright here's the newest revision. Changes so far:

-I divided the Great Plains into 2 different territories- Sioux Tribes and Cattle Country (not quite 100% on that name yet).
-Divided the Rocky Mountains into Shoshone Tribes and Oregon Territory.
-Expanded Texas.
-Shrunk and renamed the Southwest to Hopi Tribes.
-Combined California and the Great Basin into the Mexican Territory.
-Redid a few names to accompany the shift to more of a Native American perspective.
-Redid the legend. I wasn't sold on the wood planks, and it made things hard to read. I'm not totally happy with what I have right now. I'm looking for something more organic looking, so it's a step in the right direction, but it's still not quite there.

Comments on this?

[WestWind]

Click image to enlarge.

Ok, another update. Changes:
-Added 2 more natural barriers: One between Ely and Grand Mesa, and another between Black Hills and Mandan.
-Added symbols for both Native American settlements and Hazards. Native American settlements are symbolized by the coup stick, and the Hazards by the cow skull.
-Played around a bit more with the legend graphics. I'm much happier with it now, but still open to feedback.
-Lightened up the Oregon Territory texture a bit so you could actually read the text.
-Added a small note on the Hualapai (Grand Canyon) territory. If the graphic isn't obvious enough, it's now spelled out that it can only be attacked from Havasupai and Grand Mesa.

I'm going to go ahead and submit a design brief, so please give me whatever comments and criticism you have

[cairnswk]

Just a little nit-pick...
make sure you get all you shadows on the same side.
your mountains have westerly shadows, but the oraibi has easterly shadow.
i know it is early days but you'll get there

[WestWind]

Just a little nit-pick...
make sure you get all you shadows on the same side.
your mountains have westerly shadows, but the oraibi has easterly shadow.
i know it is early days but you'll get there

Haha oops. Well, I wasn't too happy with Oraibi anyways, so I'll change the perspective when I go about redoing it so I can keep some nice definition on the actual structure. Thanks for pointing that out as well as the support

[WestWind]

Click image to enlarge.

Another small update. Changes:
-Made the Mexican Territory a little more difficult to traverse- now the Great Basin part of it actually has a few mountains like it's supposed to (added a mountain range between Carson City and Salt Lake City and another between Death Valley and Ely).
-Also added a river in the Humboldt River territory.
-A few graphical changes: Added some grunge to make things look a little less smooth, and added some cows to Abilene.

Now, some concerns. I'm not sure exactly what I should be doing. I don't want to get too invested into graphics before this even gets to the gameplay shop, but I don't know what else to do. Do I just fiddle around on my own until it gets moved, or is there normally more feedback? If things normally go at this rate, just let me know and it won't be a big deal, but if something is holding this back from getting advice I'd like to know.

A second thing (and this may actually be causing my first concerns) is that I have a suspicion that this map might be too "big". I don't mean size or territory-wise, but I mean in terms of subject matter. I'm trying to cover 100 years of history on 1 map, and I'm starting to feel that I'm not doing the individual stories that make this period up justice. Sure, I don't feel like it's too big to finish, and it might look pretty and play well, but I'm not sure the finished product will have quite the detail and accuracy that I want.

So, out of that thought, a new idea: what if I broke this map down into a series of more specific maps? For example, what if I made an entire map out of the Powell expedition? It certainly has enough material to support a decent-sized map, and it would be fun to make and (I think) play. It would allow me to get into the detail I want, it would be MUCH more accurate, and it would be much tighter of a map overall. I'm not even going to think about making a map after that at this moment, but if a smaller map is a success I could move on to another "story" from the time period. Thoughts on this? Should I make a poll to see what the general consensus is?

[Industrial Helix]

Graphics are fine at the moment, tweak them in the graphics workshop.

Nevada as part of California seems a little strange to me as there really isn't a historical basis for it. California declared independence from Mexico during the Mexican-American War and was admitted from there, I think it ought to stand on its own and the Nevada area attached to New Mexico and Arizona.

As for the idea of a map pack, it would definitely be cool to cover the expansion west in a series of maps. One possibility would be to do the USA map thing and make the general map and follow up with a map pack later.

[AndyDufresne]

I think the theme and idea could make for an interesting Map Pack---but I wouldn't worry about such things until you've got this map well under way. Focus your efforts on this, to keep distractions to a minimum and updates coming.

I'll wander back when I have some more constructive comments.


--Andy

[WestWind]

Graphics are fine at the moment, tweak them in the graphics workshop.

Nevada as part of California seems a little strange to me as there really isn't a historical basis for it. California declared independence from Mexico during the Mexican-American War and was admitted from there, I think it ought to stand on its own and the Nevada area attached to New Mexico and Arizona.

This is an example of the problems I'm running into. California was pretty much independent of Mexico from 1846 on, but the Republic of Texas only existed up until 1846, when it was annexed. If I want to even be close to what the history was, I would have to pick one period of time and stick to it. Problem is I'm trying to cover 100 years of history, and kind of picking and choosing what I want in and what I don't, without really following facts consistently. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with a little bending, but having cattle drives in the same map with Lewis and Clark is starting to seem like I'm stretching things a bit.

Anyways, to clarify what I said earlier: if I did decide to split the map up to get a little more consistency on each subject, I would probably shelve this one until a later date. I wouldn't be working on two at the same time. I really haven't spent a terrible amount of time on this one, and most of the time I did spend was devoted to overcoming learning curve