God is either evil, not god, not the creator, or nonexistent

[MeDeFe]

Please define "free will", I can tell you, it is not an easy task. Your claim that any statement that removes it from the equation must be faulty is... well, faulty. First you need to demonstrate that free will, however you have defined it, exists, and even if you were to manage that it is entirely possible that it will have no bearing whatsoever on the argument.

No, all we need to show is that evil is the result of free will. A creator can be all-powerful and still allow evil if that evil is the result of also allowing free will.

*snip*

Before you can demonstrate that evil is the result of free will you need to tell me what free will is. Now hop to it, either you, Woody, or someone else, idc. Simply exclaiming "Free will!" as if that explained everything doesn't cut it, because it explains nothing.

[2dimes]

Isn't freewill being alowed to choose things? I may choose to give you food when you are hungry. I may choose to pay off your drug debt. I may choose to do things that may harm you or help others to harm you.

[PLAYER57832]

Freewill means choice, though it can be choice within some limitations.

[2dimes]

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

[Lionz]

Naxus,

Even if He can step in and cause red lights to prevent us from being in car wrecks, would that mean that we are not able to make decisions?

[MeDeFe]

Isn't freewill being alowed to choose things? I may choose to give you food when you are hungry. I may choose to pay off your drug debt. I may choose to do things that may harm you or help others to harm you.

That's a little too general to be of much use as a definition. Whether we put it as "ability to choose things" or "being allowed [by God] to choose things" a few questions arise.

What're the reasons for just that choice being made? Is it really conceivable that completely identical people in completely identical situations will choose differently? Put in other terms, say you run a simulation a million times and always provide the same original input every time, is it possible that the end result will be different if there are no random factors?
And preemptively: the existence of a random factor does not mean free will exists.

What's the range of options? Say there are three doors in front of me and I go fishing. Or I'm sitting in my rowboat and choose to stop the lawnmower. Or wake up one morning and decide that from that day forth I'm going to be a ladykiller, or shy and withdrawn, or that I will be an entertaining person. Even if I had been nothing like that up until then. How free is the will?

[Lionz]

MeDeFe,

If you were born as Adolf Hitler, would you end up doing what Hitler did? You might have an argument for yes, but I'm not convinced perhaps. Does love exist? Can there be true love without an ability to choose love?

[Frigidus]

Also, as I've explained before, free will can not exist with an omnipotent omniscient creator.

Assuming that logic is not flawed:

1. God knows everything about everything

2. God created everything

3. Given the first two points, God knew everything there was to know about everything before he created it

4. Given the third point, any action an individual human takes is one that was purposefully determined by God at the creation of the universe

5. Bonus: Give the fourth point, it is unjust to condemn anyone to hell or reward anyone with heaven

Where am I wrong there?

[2dimes]

What're the reasons for just that choice being made?

The reason for your choice is whatever you want. Do you not believe you're able to make any choices based on your own will and you're free to do so?

[mandalorian2298]

Let us suppose that there is free will.

Let us further suppose that this free will has been given to me by God, the creator of all things.

Now comes the question: Why have I been given free will? There are two possible answers:


1) I have been given free will to choose my actions and suffering or enjoying the consequences of those actions. I am a free being. This interpretation seems plausible, if you believe in the premise of God's existence.


2) God has given me free will but does not want me to use it. Instead he wants me to choose to do what he wants me to do. In other words, by giving me free will, God was basically saying: "Do you feel lucky? Well do you, punk?!" What does this tell us about God?

He doesn't really care whether I will do the right thing, be good, do no evil etc. If those things were important to him, he would either make me do it or alternatively make it obvious to me why it is important to do those things. But, he didn't. It follows that he really doesn't care what I do.

However, should I fail to uphold the standards of being good, God shall either smite me or, better yet, allow me to do all the evil I wish to do and the make me suffer for eternity for doing what he allowed me to do (in fact, for doing what he created me to do). This means that God is basically a big bully who has created me to be not-perfect so that he could point out my faults (the same faults that he created) to me and punish me for them.

Also, God is vain and rewards those who stroke his ego (which is, of course, infinite). Thus, you can be as useless a moron as you like, as long as you play by God's rules and tell him how great he is and how much you love him. In fact, you can cause as much suffering, misfortune and death as you like as long as your intentions are good and you are not breaking any of God's rules, not intentionally at least. As long as you are a good pet, you may pee all over God's creation and it doesn't matter.


If you believe that answer 1) makes more sense, then you can go through your life not knowing whether God exists or not, because it has no impact on your life. As wise Frigidus once wrote (and I apologize in advance if I'm misquoting you): "Just because God exists that doesn't mean that I should be his sheep."

If you believe that answer 2) is correct, but God should still be loved and respected the all can say to you is...........nothing. This isn't Flame Wars.

[Lionz]

Frigidus,

Does the so called OT or NT claim that He created an individual knowing exactly what they would do before they were even created? There might be many who assume so, but can you provide a reference if so?

Manda,

What if you personally were to create a three dimensional plane of existance with living creatures? You would choose for there to be living creatures with free will and yet would not be down with them doing just anything maybe. He might want you to love Him, but would that mean He's going to make you love Him? What if He already died for you even if you're not perfect?

If I was to create a three dimensional plane of existance with living beings I would personally use one or more reward and punishment system perhaps. You might call me vain, but you yourself would treat various individuals based on what they did maybe. Who wants someone jumping in front of a bullet to save a little girl to go unrewarded and who wants a child rapist to go unpunished?

[Snorri1234]

You would choose for there to be living creatures with free will and yet would not be down with them doing just anything maybe.

Why not? Surely creating us then making up arbitrary rules we should follow OR BURN IN HELL FOREVER is a bit silly, no?

[2dimes]

You would choose for there to be living creatures with free will and yet would not be down with them doing just anything maybe.

Why not? Surely creating us then making up arbitrary rules we should follow OR BURN IN HELL FOREVER is a bit silly, no?

So you feel it's unfair to have a rule suggesting you don't use your freewill to kill others, and there shouldn't be a penalty for breaking the rule?

[Frigidus]

Frigidus,

Does the so called OT or NT claim that He created an individual knowing exactly what they would do before they were even created? There might be many who assume so, but can you provide a reference if so?

I won't be directly referencing the Bible, but I simply expand on the idea of God having many "perfect" attributes. It is infinitely powerful. It is infinitely all knowing. It created everything. These three attributes, taken as a whole, imply a lot. God started with a blank slate. It created everything in the universe from scratch, and considering that it is infinitely powerful, it made the universe exactly the way it wanted to. It also, since it knows everything, knows everything that will happen before it happens. This means that, when it first started events into motion, it knew exactly how events in the universe would play out up until this point and into the future. It knew, as things began, exactly how things would play out. This includes every action ever taken by a human.

[Snorri1234]

You would choose for there to be living creatures with free will and yet would not be down with them doing just anything maybe.

Why not? Surely creating us then making up arbitrary rules we should follow OR BURN IN HELL FOREVER is a bit silly, no?

So you feel it's unfair to have a rule suggesting you don't use your freewill to kill others, and there shouldn't be a penalty for breaking the rule?

Even if I didn't it would make the rules of "WORSHIP ME!" and such still silly. Creating people, then dropping clues around the place suggesting you might not actually exist and then condemning people for not worshipping you seems to suggest "douchebag" more than "kind and loving".


And yes, creating arbitrary rules for people you made when YOU ARE GOD is silly. There is already no sense in creating us in the first place (for being god, his omniscience renders any action silly) but then frowning upon what your creations do is just stupid.

[naxus]

Naxus,

Even if He can step in and cause red lights to prevent us from being in car wrecks, would that mean that we are not able to make decisions?

1. God knows everything about everything

2. God created everything

3. Given the first two points, God knew everything there was to know about everything before he created it

4. Given the third point, any action an individual human takes is one that was purposefully determined by God at the creation of the universe

That pretty much sums up my answer

[mandalorian2298]

Manda,

What if you personally were to create a three dimensional plane of existance with living creatures? You would choose for there to be living creatures with free will and yet would not be down with them doing just anything maybe. He might want you to love Him, but would that mean He's going to make you love Him? What if He already died for you even if you're not perfect?

If I was to create a three dimensional plane of existance with living beings I would personally use one or more reward and punishment system perhaps. You might call me vain, but you yourself would treat various individuals based on what they did maybe. Who wants someone jumping in front of a bullet to save a little girl to go unrewarded and who wants a child rapist to go unpunished?

Let me see if I understand your example correctly:

1) I create a three dimensional universe filled with life forms, some of which are sentient and I make some among them want to rape children.

2) I give them free will.

3) But I don't want them to rape children.

Do I

a) Inspire one or a group of them to write a book saying how I don't want to rape children and then reward those who don't and punish those who go ahead and do it anyway?

Hell no! Since I actually do care that children do not get raped I b) personally appear before any person who is contemplating raping children and tell them not to do it and help them settle whatever issues they have that are inspiring such behavior. Indeed I remove those issues before they ever feel a need to resolve them by raping a child.

For I am kind.

[mandalorian2298]

Not to mention the fact that I would not create a universe filled with child abusers.

For I am sane.

[Lionz]

Snorri,

I'm not sure what you would personally do maybe, who wants someone jumping in front of a bullet to save a little girl to go unrewarded and who wants a child rapist to go unpunished? And would there be no sense in Him creating beings with free will if there can be no love without multiple beings?

Also, what clues do you refer to if you refer to some? We've been conditioned since we were 4 or so with media and public education and more to see certain things certain ways maybe. Is there a unbiased child who will see a peacock and not come away feeling as though it looks designed?

Frigidus,

What if He's powerful enough to be pleasantly surprised if He wants to be? There's major joy to be found in watching plants and animals grow up perhaps. What if He created various beings without knowing exactly what would happen and yet He now knows exactly what will happen in any given scenario and He's been busy orchestrating events back and forth in time ever since?

Manda,

Did He intend to create a universe filled with child abusers? What if He decided to create a wide array of creatures at a beginning without knowing what any of them would choose and He's laid out certain rules and guidelines that have been broken and He's created no one knowing that they would rebel against Him? What if He's allowing various things to play out and yet there will be a day of judgement in which everyone is rewarded or punished according to what they have done?

[PLAYER57832]

Also, as I've explained before, free will can not exist with an omnipotent omniscient creator.

Assuming that logic is not flawed:

1. God knows everything about everything

Agreed

2. God created everything

agreed

3. Given the first two points, God knew everything there was to know about everything before he created it

agreed

4. Given the third point, any action an individual human takes is one that was purposefully determined by God at the creation of the universe

disagree. Its sort of like saying that if a pot boils, you know steam will arise. However which particular molecules will convert to steam? Also, knowing and deciding are 2 different things. I tell my son not to bang his toy, becuase it will break. I can take the toy away, give him a "time out", etc. But sometimes just letting the consequences happen is a better teacher. So, I don't necessarily intervene.

Of course, with God, things are much more complicated. Its is not just individuals, but all of humanity. I have to believe that God's ultimate goal is to have as many of us within his grasp, following him, as possible. However, that does not mean that every individual will choose to follow him.

The alternatives, that he created us to be all meek followers, or that he simply engineers things so that we think we are making choices, but are really not... etc. None of those choices makes us who we are, who God wants us to be. He created us as free individuals who have the power to choose. That means letting a good many of us go. It is sad, but better than the alternatives.

5. Bonus: Give the fourth point, it is unjust to condemn anyone to hell or reward anyone with heaven

We have the choice. We have free will.

[Frigidus]

Frigidus,

What if He's powerful enough to be pleasantly surprised if He wants to be? There's major joy to be found in watching plants and animals grow up perhaps. What if He created various beings without knowing exactly what would happen and yet He now knows exactly what will happen in any given scenario and He's been busy orchestrating events back and forth in time ever since?

Well, then he wouldn't be omniscient. You're basically saying that my logic is flawed if you remove one of his traits. That's fine, an omnipotent creator can mesh with free will. And omniscient creator can mesh with free will. An omnipotent, omniscient non-creator can mesh with free will. But all three combined don't.

[Lionz]

Does scripture say He's omniscient? And even if He is, does that mean He's always been?

[Snorri1234]

Snorri,

I'm not sure what you would personally do maybe, who wants someone jumping in front of a bullet to save a little girl to go unrewarded and who wants a child rapist to go unpunished? And would there be no sense in Him creating beings with free will if there can be no love without multiple beings?

What the f*ck does this mean?

Seriously, I don't understand it. I recognize that it's English and all the words are familiar, but I have a hard time determining what on earth this whole thing means.

Also, what clues do you refer to if you refer to some? We've been conditioned since we were 4 or so with media and public education and more to see certain things certain ways maybe. Is there a unbiased child who will see a peacock and not come away feeling as though it looks designed?

Ah, the old "dude, bananas are obviously designed to fit into our hands" argument.

[Snorri1234]

Does scripture say He's omniscient? And even if He is, does that mean He's always been?

I like how you go about the place questioning stuff that is accepted as fact by all other believers.

[PLAYER57832]

Does scripture say He's omniscient? And even if He is, does that mean He's always been?

Yes and yes.