icedagger wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:comic boy wrote:A gut feeling is not evidence , desire or faith is not evidence, there is no evidence for any God.
I see, so love. anger, sadness.. none of those exist or are real?
Because that IS what you are saying.
No it isn't. He said a gut feeling isn't evidence for god. He didn't say the gut feeling doesn't exist.
No, he said it is not evidence. Either it IS evidence, evidence for anger, love, etc or it is not. You cannot have it both ways.
This is very much like a court of law. In law, there is proof "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that equates roughly to proof required by science. In law, it must be percieved "irrefutable. In science, it must be testable, irrefutable. In both cases, there can be error, but the standard is intentionally set very, very high.
However, the requirement for civil lawsuits is much less.. a "preponderance of evidence" is wording in some states. The chances of that being wrong are higher, but the standard is still very high. This is roughly equivalent to evidence required for a scientific theory to be valid, etc.
Then you have a nother standard. Individuals, each make their own judgements. They make judgements on things not accepted by law, but sometimes very much more accurate. They make judgements based on knowing the person, experience, etc. They can serve as "caracter witnesses", but it is not enough for any kind of conviction. Generally not enough to refute other types of evidence, either. HOWEVER, this is the stuff of investigation and belief. It is these types of things that spurr people to go back and spend the time to look at the evidence of already convicted individuals, because people "know", in thier hearts, a person is innocent. It is also the sort of thing that moves great scientists to move out and spend years of their lives investigating things that the rest of science considers "wrong". It is not certain, no. But, guess what? This is the very front of some of our greatest discoveries. This is how many innocent people are set free and it is how science is periodically "rocked" or even "turned on its head".
I don't suggest that my saying "I see the evidence, but I cannot show it to you" is enough to get you to change your worldview or start attending church. I DO say that it is enough to warrant more respect than claims that
"I don't care what you say, your beliefs are just as silly as someone who wants to claim pink unicorns and flying teapots are real".
Flying teapots don't exist. There is no evidence for them, there is plenty of evidence to disprove them. Same with pink unicorns. Even mythology doesn't really and truly accept either flying teapots or pink unicorns (in myth, they are white or sometimes grey, not pink). Sure, you can invent them. So what? I can write plenty of fiction. I have and do. But it is not real.
God, however IS real. God is real not just because someone told me so, not just because I wish it to be, God is real because God has proven his presence to me in very deep and fundamental ways. He proves himself to me in ways even deeper than the love I know for my sons.
Yet, just like I cannot prove my love for my sons, not really, not to someone who wishes to deny it, I cannot prove God to someone who wishes not to look beyond what is proven in front of their face, for them to touch and feel.
The problem comes only when you assert that your narrowness of thinking is actually a greater thinking. This is a problem because it firmly cuts yourself off from most people who do believe in God. It puts your very logic in question. If you work so heavily to deny the existance of God, they of course all your data, everything else you assert is subject to question.
Right now, science is in crisis. Whether you wish to admit it or not, millions of people are turning their backs on science because so many scientists like yourself insist that science= no God. They turn their backs on proof because people who cannot even begin to TRY to understand their deepest, most fundamental beliefs simply do not deserve respect. Respect is not given, it must be earned. Someone who tells me that my deepest held believes are nothing more than belief in a flying teapot.. well, I can look beyond it, to a point but most people simply won't.
THAT is where my anger comes from. My anger comes (and yes, I direct it in the other direction as well!) becuase your arrogance and narrowmindedness are driving a wedge into my country. My anger comes because too many people like you have been allowed to dominate science forums and as a result, my own son attends a school where 3 out 4 teachers attend a church that firmly believes in young earth creationism. My anger comes because person after person in my town has so little trust in science that they are willing to ignore data for global warming, and are perfectly happy to have carcinogen spewing plants in our town, becuase they provide a few jobs.
My anger comes because while you are not yet in the science field, you will be and if you enter taking such strong biases with you, you will be heavily contributing to the problems of science.. the problems of people standing on their lofty pillars looking down on "the masses" and claiming superiority. Well, guess what! Those "idiot masses" well outnumber you. So, if you want YOUR programs passed, if you don't want funding for YOUR research cut to save on taxes, then you need to take it upon yourself to get down off those perches and much with the "dirty masses".
I am angry because I have seen this happening for 40 years. I am angry because one reason I am not currently employed is because too many in this state think fisheries is about fish farms that drop full-sized. fishable trout, trout that are not even native, into our streams. I am angry because that lack of understanding is why there were no laws to require my neighbor to design appropriate drainage when he built a house next to mine. I am angry because I bought a house, specifically knowing that drainage was well done, that this house would last.. only to have it all erased by my neighbor's refusal to spend $200 (literally!) when building his house. I am angry because I now have a garage and basement that leak every time it rains, and unlike the borough manager designated with enforcing the rules, I KNOW just what damage that is causing.
I am angry because if scientists don't start working together with EVERYONE, including those they consider religious idiots, and don't start giving them ALL respect, we are ALL doomed.. and I don't exaggerate in the least.
You think this gulf oil spill is an anomoly? It isn't. We spend all this time, energy and worry about terrorists. Terrorist that do present a real threat, yes, but the REAL truth, to those who fully understand the situation, the REAL TRUTH is that for all the damage from 9-11, this one BP accident is going to cause us far more trouble than 10 9-11s ever could. The 9-11 attacks killed people. It was horrific. The BP incident will ruin the ecology of several entire regions. Make no mistake, it has the potential to severely harm the US economy. That one act has that potential.
HOW did we allow that to happen? Ignorance. Pure and simple ignorance, combined with a little greed. And scientists who think they are superior to everyone else.. they are the real and true cause of it all.
