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Logic dictates that there is a God!

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Does God exist?

 
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Re:

Postby tzor on Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:07 am

Lionz wrote:Tzor and Player,

If you claim it would have been deceptive of Him to have created earth instantly out of nothing with diamond in it or deceptive of Him to have created stars with light reaching earth from them right away, do you claim it would have been deceptive of Him to have created Adam as a full grown man with pubic hair?


First of all, how do you know he had pubic hair? How do you know he was "grown?" He could have been created as a 10 year old for all we know. When one considers the text in its context, the use of massive Hebrew wordplay, such questions of if Adam had public hair or even a belly button are ... for want of a better word ... splitting hairs.

Second, and this is most impotant, apparently Adam knew he was created from the dust from day one. It is not like there was this secret, implanted in the heavens, that man would not understand for thousands of years. If the universe is only six thousand years old, why not just plant stars no farther than six thousand years away. Why plant deliberate fakes out there? It is one thing to make a star out of nothing; it is another thing to give the impression that there are stars out there when there are not.

This deception gets complex. We know, through parallax the distances of stars up to 1,600 light years away. Quoting Wikipedia, "The European Space Agency's Gaia mission, due to launch in 2011 and come online in 2012, will be able to measure parallax angles to an accuracy of 10 microarcseconds, thus mapping nearby stars (and potentially planets) up to a distance of tens of thousands of light-years from earth."

So I can wait two years. Then the known universe as measured by parallax will be greater than the age you claim it is.

Click image to enlarge.
image


This image demonstrates parallax. The Sun is visible above the streetlight. The reflection in the water shows a virtual image of the Sun and the streetlight. The location of the virtual image is below the surface of the water and thus simultaneously offers a different vantage point of the streetlight, which appears to be shifted relative to the stationary, background Sun.
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Postby Lionz on Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:26 am

How about a number system?

1. If earth has an atmosphere with a ratio of 14C to 12C that is not constant, then what is carbon dating useful for?

2. What have I suggested happened that would have resulted in cosmic rays being turned off? I don't understand what you mean with one or more thing maybe.

3. You might be assuming things about uranium and thorium. Is there any radiometric dating technique that is not resting on three or more assumptions?

Radioactive dating explained
Some types (technically known as ‘isotopes’) of ‘parent’ elements such as uranium, thorium, potassium and rubidium are said to be radioactive because the nuclei of the atoms are unstable, resulting in readjustments between the ‘particles’ (primarily neutrons and protons) in the nuclei with time. To achieve stability, some ‘particles’ are ejected from the atoms, and these moving ‘particles’ constitute the radioactivity measured by Geiger counters and the like. The end result is stable atoms of the ‘daughter’ elements lead, argon, and strontium respectively.

Thus the first step in the radioactive dating technique is to measure the amounts of the parent and daughter elements (isotopes) in a rock sample via chemical analyses. This is done in specially equipped laboratories with sophisticated instruments capable of very good precision and accuracy, so in general there is no quarrel with the resulting chemical analyses.

However, it is with the interpretation of the chemical analyses of the radioactive parents and resultant daughters that the problems with radioactive dating of rocks begin. In order to interpret these chemical analyses, geochronologists must make three vital assumptions, otherwise the radioactive ‘clock’ cannot be made to ‘read’ the ‘age’ of the rocks. These assumptions are:

the initial conditions are known;
the system has been closed; and
the radioactive decay rate has remained constant.
So that these assumptions are easily understood, they are best explained in the context of the hourglass analogy (see Figure 1). Grains of fine sand fall at a steady rate from the top glass bowl to the bottom. At time t = 0, the hourglass is turned upside-down so that all the sand starts in the top bowl. By time t = 1 hour, all the sand is supposed to have fallen into the bottom glass bowl.

Now this ‘clock’ works because the initial conditions are known—that is, all the sand grains are in the top glass bowl and none are in the bottom one. If there is already some sand in the bottom glass bowl, then unless this amount is known the hourglass ‘clock’ cannot ‘tell’ the time. Similarly, if the system has not remained closed (for example, if sand were somehow added or subtracted), then the calculation of the elapsed time, based on comparing the amounts of sand in the two glass bowls, will again lead to an incorrect conclusion. And finally, if the rate at which the sand grains fall from the top glass bowl to the bottom one varies (for example, moisture causes some clogging of the sand in the constriction between the two glass bowls), then again the hourglass ‘clock’ will be inaccurate.

Unproven assumptions
The radioactive decay of ‘parent’ isotopes of uranium, thorium, potassium, and rubidium to ‘daughter’ isotopes of lead, argon and strontium respectively is analogous to our hourglass ‘clock’, including these three assumptions. However, in the case of these radioactive ‘clocks’ these three assumptions can be shown to be not only unprovable, but invalid, rendering these ‘clocks’ virtually useless.

In the case of the initial conditions, no scientist can ever be sure as to what they were, because no scientist was present here on the earth at its origin. Thus the amount of daughter isotope that has actually been derived from the parent isotope by radioactive decay is unknown, since some of the daughter isotope might have been present with its respective parent isotope at the time of the earth’s origin.

So geochronologists have assumed that the uranium, thorium and lead isotopic composition of particular meteorites is equivalent to the initial composition of these isotopes when the earth came into existence. This is assumed because it is supposed that these meteorites represent fragments from another planet in the solar system similar to our earth that disintegrated very early in the history of the solar system. However, not all meteorites have the same uraniumthorium- lead isotopic composition, so why should the isotopic composition of these particular meteorites be considered to be the ‘correct’ composition for the earth at its origin rather than some other composition found in other meteorites?

Furthermore, even if today’s scientists believe they have the methods, for example graphical and mathematical, for determining how much of the daughter isotope might have been present either at the origin of the earth or the origin of the rock being dated, no one can ever be sure that these ‘answers’ are correct, because there was no scientist present at the beginning to observe those initial conditions, even though the scientists’ calculations may be extremely logical.

Similarly, there is no way that it can be proved that these radioactive systems have been closed through all the supposed millions of years of decay of parent isotopes into daughter isotopes. Again, the main reason for this is because no scientist has been present to observe everywhere these radioactive systems and so report that they have been closed through all their history. Indeed, the evidence indicates the very opposite, that is, that these systems have been open to all sorts of external influences.

For example, it is known that uranium is generally a mobile element in the natural environment, particularly in groundwaters near the earth’s surface. Thus, if a rock sample is analysed at or near the earth’s surface for its uranium and lead isotopes, it would be incorrect to assume that all the uranium and lead in the sample were there only because of the amounts placed in the rock at its origin and because of undisturbed radioactive decay from uranium into lead. Some of the uranium might have been leached out of the rock sample, hence making the rock appear older than it really is according to this radioactive ‘clock’. Or, some uranium might have been deposited by groundwaters into the sample, thus making it appear younger than what it really is.

Indeed, geochronologists often plot the chemical analyses of the isotopes, expressed as isotope ratios, on graphs, and these often show that the parent-daughter systems have not been closed, but open. Furthermore, by interpretation of these graphs they often claim to be able to quantify the loss or gain and thus overcome this difficulty to still ‘read’ the radioactive ‘clock’. However, once again this interpretation to overcome this problem of the invalidated closed-system assumption cannot be proved, but is merely assumed to be correct because it makes the radioactive ‘clock’ work.

The final assumption is, of course, that the radioactive decay rates have remained constant. However, once again, this assumption can in no way be proved, because there were no human observers present right throughout the earth’s history to be constantly measuring the radioactive decay rates and to have recorded them.

It is special pleading on the part of geochronologists and physicists to say that the radioactive decay rates have been carefully measured in laboratories for the past 80 or 90 years and that no significant variation of these rates has been measured. The ‘bottom line’ is really that 80 or 90 years of measurements are being extrapolated backwards in time to the origin of the earth, believed by evolutionists to be 4.5 billion years ago. That is an enormous extrapolation. In any other field of scientific research, if scientists or mathematicians were to extrapolate results over that many orders of magnitude, thereby assuming continuity of results over such enormous spans of unobserved time, they would be literally ‘laughed out of court’ by fellow scientists and mathematicians. Yet geochronologists are allowed to do this with impunity, primarily because it gives the desired millions and billions of years that evolutionists require, and because it makes these radioactive ‘clocks’ work!

So we have seen that none of these three basic assumptions which are foundational to all the radioactive dating techniques can be proved. Indeed, we have also seen that each of these three assumptions is invalid, not only because no scientist has been present from the origin of the earth to see what it was like then and to report as an eyewitness all that has happened everywhere since, but because we know of observations contrary to these assumptions.

Gap between them that has to do with an image section not shown here and formatting is messed up and transfer has helped result in things being missing and they're misquoted maybe... you might want to check here... http://www.answersingenesis.org/creatio ... active.asp

4. I don't know if he was created as a full grown man or not perhaps, but maybe we should not assume he was or was not. Would it have been deceptive of Him to have created Adam in a world with full grown trees less than a week old containing edible fruit on them? Question to ask yourself and not answer in here maybe.

5. Light speed is not a constant by any means maybe. Are we not even at the end of an entropy related curve that started out with light naturally travelling from place to place automatically for all we know?

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/lightspeed-99a.html
http://creationscience.com/onlinebook/FAQ16.html
http://www.arrivalofthefittest.com/slid ... de0961.htm
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Re:

Postby tzor on Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:15 pm

Lionz wrote:How about a number system?

1. If earth has an atmosphere with a ratio of 14C to 12C that is not constant, then what is carbon dating useful for?

2. What have I suggested happened that would have resulted in cosmic rays being turned off? I don't understand what you mean with one or more thing maybe.

3. You might be assuming things about uranium and thorium. Is there any radiometric dating technique that is not resting on three or more assumptions?


The problem is that (as we used to say back in the days of analog televisions) you are using the fine tune knob to change the channel. You can have lots of debates on whether or not a thing dated is 4,000 or 4,500 years old. That's completely different from having something that is 60,000 years from being 6,000 years (a factor of ten). If you want to really mess up with the C14 / C12 ratios you have to really mess up the world to do that.

Uranium and thorium is different. There are no ratio's to fiddle with.

Lionz wrote:4. I don't know if he was created as a full grown man or not perhaps, but maybe we should not assume he was or was not. Would it have been deceptive of Him to have created Adam in a world with full grown trees less than a week old containing edible fruit on them? Question to ask yourself and not answer in here maybe.

5. Light speed is not a constant by any means maybe. Are we not even at the end of an entropy related curve that started out with light naturally travelling from place to place automatically for all we know?


Question 4 is interesting, but I am afraid we would be talking past each other.

Question 5 is wrong. Electro-magnetic theory demands it. It demands it so strongly that it literally tore down classical physics and gave birth to both relativity and quantum mechanics. The so called "speed of the propagation of light" is the unit of measurement that maps space to time itself.
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:24 pm

jay_a2j wrote:First thing I noticed is you cut a big chunk out of my post.

I should have acknowledged the first part. I apologize. I deleted it simply because we seemed to more or less agree there, at least to the extent I am able to debate with intelligence. I had understood from previous posts (regarding the solid core, etc) that you thought the earth relatively young, though not 6000 years. However, those details I mostly leave to other people do debate. [/quote]
jay_a2j wrote:Had you not done that you would not even attempt to call me a "young earther" as I clearly wrote why the age of the earth does not effect my faith but it does yours.

Did I say it impacted my faith? No. I said that I have dealt with many who believed, as you seem to, in the short creation, be it of the entire universe or simply biological creation. In that part, you have very much disagreed with most of what I have said regarding evolution. However, these distinctions are also why I tend to refer to "young earth websites" and "creationist websites" as opposed to saying, "you ..". I don't know what you believe unless you say. However, if you say that evolution is wrong or not based on evidence or contrary to the Bible, then most of the arguments used are found on those websites.
jay_a2j wrote:If you want to accuse people of being something, in this case a young earther, please direct the readers of this thread to the post I said it in. Don't bother, you won't find it. My problem is with evolution not the age of the earth. But, that being said, do I think it possible for God to have created the earth 12,000 years ago? Sure.... He's God.
You have said many times that you don't believe evolution and made fun of the science behind it. Arguments against evolution are found on young earth websites, ergo that reference. Whether you are actually referring to those exact websites or believe everything they say, it is clear that people to whom you listen get their information from those sources (just as it is clear that I get information from traditional science).

Regarding your specific beliefs, I have asked, but you haven't supplied much of anything (at least recently) except to say it doesn't seem that I have considered creationism (despite responding to multiple posts on the matter, offering various types of evidence that show I very much am aware of and have considered their view). Most of my direct debate, then has been directed at other people. To you, I keep saying "look at the evidence before you criticize evolution".
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby jay_a2j on Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:24 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote: To you, I keep saying "look at the evidence before you criticize evolution".



Where is it? Point me to a species of animal that is in the process of evolution. The missing link. If an animal evolved from fish to some land creature where are the fossils? The fossils of the "in between" animals. Where are the "in between" animals walking the earth today? If evolution allows animal x to become animal y where is animal xy? Yeah I know "a long process", but there would still be something visibly concrete that we could look at. Maybe a rat with no hair, then a rat with feathers, then a rat with wings, something! But these things do not exist. You can spout all the gobbledygook you want about the process of evolution. But when real life examples of it happening are concerned, nada. And don't get carried away with the rat, it was an example. ANY animal in the process of becoming something else, where are they?
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby 2dimes on Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:41 pm

Lionz, what do you make of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6TIGApo1Iw

Could it show hundreds or thousands of years of erosion. Those with a link to our past say there used to be a portion of Canada's main highway where that river flows through that valley, perhaps, maybe?
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Postby Lionz on Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:00 am

Tzor,

It's irrelevant how far off any radiometric dating method result would be from an actual date if we don't know whether or not He creating things with so called daughter isotopes in them in the first place maybe. And assuming that He did not would only be one of three or more critical assumptions you would be making in thinking you were dating something accurately by a radiometric dating technique perhaps.

You say if I want to really mess up with the C14 / C12 ratios I have to really mess up the world to do that? Earth was greatly messed up during the flood to put it lightly maybe. Are there not fossilized tree remains in Antartica? See something above that says the resulting C-14/C-12 ratio would be 1/500 of today’s level? Also, and this is a huge point here perhaps... if it takes about 30,000 years to reach equilibrium and 14C is still out of equilibrium, then what does that tell us?

What does electro-magnetic theory demand? Has light not even been slowed down by humans? And seriously consider this and get back to me on it maybe...

Historical Measurements. During the past 300 years, at least 164 separate measurements of the speed of light have been published. Sixteen different measurement techniques were used. Astronomer Barry Setterfield of Australia has studied these measurements, especially their precision and experimental errors.1 His results show that the speed of light has apparently decreased so rapidly that experimental error cannot explain it! In the seven instances where the same scientists remeasured the speed of light with the same equipment years later, a decrease was always reported. The decreases were often several times greater than the reported experimental errors. I have conducted other analyses that weight (or give significance to) each measurement according to its accuracy. Even after considering the wide range of accuracies, it is hard to see how one can claim, with any statistical rigor, that the speed of light has remained constant.2

M. E. J. Gheury de Bray, in 1927, was probably the first to propose a decreasing speed of light.3 He based his conclusion on measurements spanning 75 years. Later, he became more convinced and twice published his results in Nature,4 possibly the most prestigious scientific journal in the world. He emphasized, “If the velocity of light is constant, how is it that, invariably, new determinations give values which are lower than the last one obtained ... There are twenty-two coincidences in favour of a decrease of the velocity of light, while there is not a single one against it.”5 [emphasis in original]

Although the measured speed of light has decreased only about 1% during the past three centuries, the decrease is statistically significant, because measurement techniques can detect changes thousands of times smaller. While the older measurements have greater errors, the trend of the data is startling. The farther back one looks in time, the more rapidly the speed of light seems to have been decreasing. Various mathematical curves fit these three centuries of data. When some of those curves are projected back in time, the speed of light becomes so fast that light from distant galaxies conceivably could have reached Earth in several thousand years.

No scientific law requires the speed of light to be constant.6 Many simply assume that it is constant, and of course, changing old ways of thinking is sometimes difficult. Russian cosmologist, V. S. Troitskii, at the Radiophysical Research Institute in Gorky, is also questioning some old beliefs. He concluded, independently of Setterfield, that the speed of light was 10 billion times faster at time zero!7 Furthermore, he attributed the cosmic microwave background radiation and most redshifts to this rapidly decreasing speed of light. Setterfield reached the same conclusion concerning redshifts by a different method. If either Setterfield or Troitskii is correct, the big bang theory will fall (with a big bang).

Other cosmologists are proposing an enormous decay in the speed of light.8 Several of their theoretical problems with the big bang theory are solved if light once traveled millions of times faster.9

That's missing hyperlinks and includes numbers that should be raised up higher and smaller and it's a misquote maybe. You might want to check here and look for reference number hyperlinks... http://creationscience.com/onlinebook/FAQ16.html
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Postby Lionz on Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:02 am

2dimes,

Do you have a non-youtube source or video title?
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby 2dimes on Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:46 pm

I'll try to hunt up a news article but the media is confused they say water washed out the road overnight or something equaly silly. I have read lots of things that talk about how erosion works and it takes a very long time, perhaps, maybe?
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby john9blue on Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:48 pm

Hey Lionz, you know you're winning when ignorant morons start criticizing your speech patterns instead of the actual issues.
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby 2dimes on Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:49 pm

Google floods near Maple Creek

Here's the first hit.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Heavy+ ... story.html
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby 2dimes on Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:51 pm

john9blue wrote:Hey Lionz, you know you're winning when ignorant morons start criticizing your speech patterns instead of the actual issues.

In my opinion the issue is too many "Scientists" putting forth things they can't know, as rock solid proven truth. The end of the sentance is making light of that.
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby King Doctor on Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:55 pm

jay_a2j wrote:ANY animal in the process of becoming something else, where are they?



You do understand that these animals don't turn into different species of animals during their own lifetimes, right?



Also, these guys are pretty good examples of evolution in action: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon-eating_bacteria
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby jay_a2j on Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:56 pm

I love this:

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:lol:


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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby jay_a2j on Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:57 pm

King Doctor wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:ANY animal in the process of becoming something else, where are they?



You do understand that these animals don't turn into different species of animals during their own lifetimes, right?



Also, these guys are pretty good examples of evolution in action: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon-eating_bacteria



DUH? Where are the "IN BETWEEN" species???????

No, something other than microscopic organisms...... if we evolved from some other species where are the one's still evolving?????
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby King Doctor on Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:04 pm

jay_a2j wrote:DUH? Where are the "IN BETWEEN" species???????


Technically speaking, every species that you have ever seen is an 'in between' species. That's because every living creature represents a member of a generation that will contribute to the refinement of the next; which, as evolution dictates, will be subtly different yet still a part of the same process.

The obvious example would be noting that humans are now, on average, taller and less hairy than they were in the dark ages. It's a gradual process of subtle refinement that will eventually render our species as different from the homo sapiens found on Earth at 0AD as those humans would have found the apes that existed several thousand years before themselves.

Unfortunately, I suspect that you don't actually understand the theory particularly well and think that because I can't produce a penguin with a venomous sting, or a human with a feathery back, that evolution doesn't exist.
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby jay_a2j on Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:24 pm

King Doctor wrote: taller and less hairy than they were in the dark ages.



Obviously you've never met my Uncle. Or Robin Williams. Not buying it. Anyone can point to subtle thing and say "See! That's evolution!" the problem is, if humans evolved from a specific animal then why do we not see it today? What did man evolve from? Player insists it was not the ape, although that is widely accepted. But she never states what animal we evolved from. Where is this mysterious animal that man evolved from and why did they stop evolving? If evolution is to be believed we should see humans all around the globe in different stages of evolution.
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby 2dimes on Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:28 pm

This one has a good picture gallery.

http://www.thestarphoenix.com/Gallery+M ... story.html
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby john9blue on Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:30 pm

jay_a2j wrote:
King Doctor wrote: taller and less hairy than they were in the dark ages.



Obviously you've never met my Uncle. Or Robin Williams. Not buying it. Anyone can point to subtle thing and say "See! That's evolution!" the problem is, if humans evolved from a specific animal then why do we not see it today? What did man evolve from? Player insists it was not the ape, although that is widely accepted. But she never states what animal we evolved from. Where is this mysterious animal that man evolved from and why did they stop evolving? If evolution is to be believed we should see humans all around the globe in different stages of evolution.


Humans didn't evolve from apes, humans and apes share a common ancestor. The two are different.

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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby 2dimes on Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:43 pm

Jackelope?
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby tzor on Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:44 pm

jay_a2j wrote:If evolution is to be believed we should see humans all around the globe in different stages of evolution.


No we should not. People often mistake the origin of sub-species with the origin of species. A key element for the latter is isolation. This isolation causes changes to accumulate over time so that the differences are no longer genetically compatible, at which point they easily diverge. As long as you can cross the sub-species you keep the code from drifting so far as to be non compatible.

Humans are a classic example of what happens when you don’t have isolation. Not only do they travel all over the place, they tend to mate anything remotely looking like themselves. Short people mate with tall people; red haired people mate with black haired people, and so forth.

Thus as humans evolved they mated with each other. They went vast distances to mate with each other. This is the primary reason why you don’t see all the human stages of evolution around.
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby Snorri1234 on Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:28 pm

tzor wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:If evolution is to be believed we should see humans all around the globe in different stages of evolution.


No we should not. People often mistake the origin of sub-species with the origin of species. A key element for the latter is isolation. This isolation causes changes to accumulate over time so that the differences are no longer genetically compatible, at which point they easily diverge. As long as you can cross the sub-species you keep the code from drifting so far as to be non compatible.

Humans are a classic example of what happens when you don’t have isolation. Not only do they travel all over the place, they tend to mate anything remotely looking like themselves. Short people mate with tall people; red haired people mate with black haired people, and so forth.

Thus as humans evolved they mated with each other. They went vast distances to mate with each other. This is the primary reason why you don’t see all the human stages of evolution around.


Also, there is a much simpler reason we don't see various types of hominids around. We killed them all.
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby King Doctor on Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:13 pm

jay_a2j wrote:
King Doctor wrote: taller and less hairy than they were in the dark ages.

Obviously you've never met my Uncle. Or Robin Williams. Not buying it.


Well, that's because you're just deliberately pulling the wool over your own eyes to escape from logic that you don't like. Just pretending that I didn't say the word 'average' doesn't make your finding of one hairy dude a clever counterargument.


jay_a2j wrote:
King Doctor wrote: taller and less hairy than they were in the dark ages.

Anyone can point to subtle thing and say "See! That's evolution!" the problem is, if humans evolved from a specific animal then why do we not see it today?


As has already been pointed out, any branches of the original common-ancestor that did not evolve in the same direction as us have long since been wiped out / become extinct.

That's the whole point of evolution you see, it's literally how it works, as a species evolves it muscles out any members of its species that aren't riding the 'stronger and fitter' wave. The strong supercede the weak because they're better at surviving than their predecessors. Hence the reason that you don't see any 'ancestor species' hanging around today is because, by their very definition, they didn't keep up with their evolving kin and got wiped out.


jay_a2j wrote:If evolution is to be believed we should see humans all around the globe in different stages of evolution.


No, that's just what people who don't fully understand evolution believe that we should see. See above.
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby silvanricky on Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:38 pm

I don't know who you are really King Doctor but you sound a lot like Woodruff.
b.k. barunt wrote:Then you must be a pseudoatheist. If you were a real atheist Dan Brown would make your nipples hard.
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby natty dread on Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:38 pm

the debate is over!
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