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Re:

Postby daddy1gringo on Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:22 am

Lionz wrote:No response to questions from me Gringo?
What questions? If you mean why do I say that something NOT in the Bible does not have the same authority as something that IS in the Bible, I can only answer, "Are you serious?"
And what is meant by the similarly evolved bodies? You mean to throw out a scenario of humans evolving from non-human apes and then having nephilim as children with non-human apes?
I was suggesting an interpretation that works for people who believe in theistic evolution, as I believe players does. I don't. My take, as I said, is that the "sons of God" refers to the men of the line of Seth (Luke 3:38, Gen 1:26, Gen 5:3 Gen 4:26), the "daughters of men" were women of the line of Cain, and that "nephilim" means "fallen ones" which is its literal meaning, not "giants", and either refers also to line of Cain or to the offspring, who fell away from worshiping YHWH into idolatry.
Well are daughters of Adam not referred to in Genesis 6:2 and 6:4? Who besides daughters of Adam, if so?
Asked and answered. Yes, they were descendants of Adam, but more specifically, of Cain.
Maybe Job 1:6-7 can help people figure out who is referred to in there.
Yes, that and the similar passage in Job 2 are the strongest argument for the idea that the "sons of God" in Genesis 6 are angels, but I don't think it's strong enough to outweigh the other references. Every other place in the Bible where the term "son(s) of God" is used,* it refers to those who do God's will. Job refers to events in heaven, all of the others, including Genesis 6, refer to events on earth.

*Edit: except when it refers to Jesus
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Postby Lionz on Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:02 am

Referring to questions in general or specific ones in here or both maybe. I might not be sure what you missed and what you simply decided to not address.

Do you have an example of a Bible with 66 and only 66 works that existed before 1630? Even the 1611 KJV includes stuff called apocrypha it in and you can find Bibles with a version of 1 Enoch in them maybe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KJV#Apocrypha

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint#Apocrypha

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate

Even if you consider 66 and only 66 works to be the Bible, is 1 Enoch not quoted in Jude 1:14-15?

http://qbible.com/enoch/2.html

http://yahushua.net/scriptures/jude.htm

If there were not individuals who were physical giants as a result of being nephilim, can you help me understand Numbers 13:33?

I've referred to a number of pre-4th century works that back up an angelic ancestry view and a number of pre-4th century individuals who had an angelic ancestry view maybe. Do you have a pre-4th century source backing up a sons of Sheth and daughters of Cain view?

Is there a place anywhere in the so called Old Testament that uses beney ha'Elohim to refer to men? You might be using Greek to try to interpet Hebrew.
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Re: Nephilim

Postby daddy1gringo on Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:14 pm

Lionz wrote:Referring to questions in general or specific ones in here or both maybe. I might not be sure what you missed and what you simply decided to not address.

Do you have an example of a Bible with 66 and only 66 works that existed before 1630? Even the 1611 KJV includes stuff called apocrypha it in and you can find Bibles with a version of 1 Enoch in them maybe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KJV#Apocrypha

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint#Apocrypha

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate


Very clever, but the ancient controversy between Catholics and Protestants over the inclusion of the Apocrypha is irrelevant to Enoch, which is not part of it.

(btw, you are incorrect. The Apocrypha was completely excluded from the KJV in 1629. Before that (1611) it was "included" but separately, and labeled as non-inspired though of interest to the reader of the Bible, as it was in Matthew's Bible (1537), Taverner's Bible (1539), the "Great Bible", (1539), the Geneva Bible (1560), and the Bishop's Bible (1568), as well as the versions of Tyndale (1525) and Coverdale (1535).

Incidentally, St. Jerome (340-420), the author/translator of the Latin Vulgate, said this concerning the Apocryphal books:"As the Church reads the books of Judith and Tobit and Maccabees but does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also it reads Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people, not for the authoritative confirmation of doctrine."
Jerome's preface to the books of Solomon

You might want to check out this link: http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/apocryph.htm

In short, there are reasons why the works included in the Bible are included, and those that are not, are not.

Even if you consider 66 and only 66 works to be the Bible, is 1 Enoch not quoted in Jude 1:14-15?

Paul quoted Greek philosopher/poets Epimenides and Aratus (Acts 17:28) and Menander (1Cor 15:33). Should I form my beliefs based on their writings too? Because something is quoted in the Bible does not mean the rest of the work is divinely inspired.

If there were not individuals who were physical giants as a result of being nephilim, can you help me understand Numbers 13:33?


Sure. Here's the verse again:
"There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight."

The word "nephilim" means "fallen ones" or those who have fallen away from the worship of YHWH into idolatry, pagans. The Anakim were giants, that is clear from other passages. So the phrase in parenthesis is explaining why they would feel like grasshoppers before these pagans that God has commanded them to kick out of Canaan: among these pagans are Anakim giants. Otherwise, if both terms mean "giants", it is redundant and says nothing.

You could say it is explaining that Anakim were giants, but that is assuming that the writer was assuming that the readers would know that nephilim were giants and not know that anakim were, which is unlikely; the reverse is more probable.

I've referred to a number of pre-4th century works that back up an angelic ancestry view and a number of pre-4th century individuals who had an angelic ancestry view maybe. Do you have a pre-4th century source backing up a sons of Sheth and daughters of Cain view?

Most of those pre-4th c. individuals probably believed that the earth is flat and you can cure a flu by bleeding. No I am not going to waste time seeing if someone of that period wrote down this particular viewpoint.
Is there a place anywhere in the so called Old Testament that uses beney ha'Elohim to refer to men? You might be using Greek to try to interpet Hebrew.

I'm using the Bible to interpret the Bible. I understand your point that the Job passages are more applicable to Gen 6 because both are Hebrew, while the references I gave, being New Testament are in Greek. My response, already given, is that the Job passage refers to events and beings in Heaven, while the NT passages clearly talk about how someone on Earth gets to be known as a son of God and it is clearly stated that it is "on the Earth" that Gen 6:4 takes place.

If you're going to bring up languages, it is doubtful that Job was originally composed in Hebrew either, as it pre-dates Abraham, though of course it is included in the Hebrew canon in Hebrew.

As I have said, the Job passages are the best argument for your interpretation, but there is an alternate way to read the 2 "nephilim" passages that doesn't involve spirits copulating and procreating with human beings, which, as I have said, Jesus makes pretty clear doesn't happen, and creating people who somehow live through a flood that the Bible says killed all air-breathing creatures except those in the ark.

I don't know why I'm bothering to argue this, except that you asked. Like evolution, if your theory were proven, it wouldn't significantly affect my faith. It wouldn't be the first weird and unbelievable thing God has asked me to believe. Believing that He loved me enough to give his Son for me, when he knows my dirt at least as well as I do is weird and unbelievable enough.
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Re: Nephilim

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:40 pm

daddy1gringo wrote: Like evolution, if your theory were proven, it wouldn't significantly affect my faith. It wouldn't be the first weird and unbelievable thing God has asked me to believe. Believing that He loved me enough to give his Son for me, when he knows my dirt at least as well as I do is weird and unbelievable enough.

On this we agree.
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Re: Nephilim

Postby b.k. barunt on Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:44 pm

I agree with all of dgringo's answers to lionz as far as the different versions and translations. The Apocrypha was not included in the KJV and was disallowed by Jerome. There is no evidence that Enoch was ever included in the OT.

Dgringo however is getting desperate with his "meaning" of the Hebrew word "nephiyl". It does not mean "fallen one" as he says. The root word it's taken from is "naphal", which means "to fall". The literal meaning of the word "nephiyl" is "feller" (one who causes to fall) or "bully". Wherever the word is used in the KJV it is translated into "giants". Anyone can check this online. The number in the Strongs Exhaustive Concordance for "nephiyl" is 5303.

So Dgringo, what else might be "misinterpreted" in the Bible? How about the word "salvation"?


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Re: Nephilim

Postby daddy1gringo on Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:39 pm

b.k. barunt wrote:I agree with all of dgringo's answers to lionz as far as the different versions and translations. The Apocrypha was not included in the KJV and was disallowed by Jerome. There is no evidence that Enoch was ever included in the OT.

Dgringo however is getting desperate with his "meaning" of the Hebrew word "nephiyl". It does not mean "fallen one" as he says. The root word it's taken from is "naphal", which means "to fall". The literal meaning of the word "nephiyl" is "feller" (one who causes to fall) or "bully". Wherever the word is used in the KJV it is translated into "giants". Anyone can check this online. The number in the Strongs Exhaustive Concordance for "nephiyl" is 5303.

So Dgringo, what else might be "misinterpreted" in the Bible? How about the word "salvation"
There's no point in arguing this. You are obviously of the opinion that the King James Version is THE translation, and questioning that translation = questioning the Word of God. In that case, as I said before, sure, nephilim = giants; it says so.

From my point of view, and that of many others, the writers were divinely inspired to write what they wrote and thus the original is inerrant. However, the translation into whatever vernacular is a different matter, and no translation is perfect. God constructed it in such a way that, barring deliberate distortion, any translation will communicate his message just fine. For some of the questionable points though, you need to check the original languages. Other than the fact that the King James translates nephilim as giants, there is no other linguistic reason for the long stretch from "to fall" > "feller" > "bully" > "giant".

If you believe that spirits mated with humans and spawned giants, like Zeus with Hercules, or some kind of incubuses (-bi?), then God bless you.

I'll make you a deal. If you are so willing to believe something because the Bible says so even though it is unbelievable, try this.

I give you permission to spend the first million years telling me "I told you so"; about the KJV, the nephilim and anything else you want, when we find out you are right in heaven. All you have to do is believe that God is able to love you just the way you are, that his blood is able to save and cleanse you no matter how far gone you think you are, and that he is able to work in you both to will and to work, that is to change both your behavior and desires if you will let him. After all, those things are in the same Bible; the KJV for that matter.

That’s my interpretation of the word ā€œsalvation.ā€ Have I misinterpreted it?
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Re: Nephilim

Postby 2dimes on Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:04 pm

daddy1gringo should have wrote:I don't know what a concordance is but...

We know he belongs to Jesus, he's just busy right now with some junk. Prayer's probably the best thing to do about it.
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Postby Lionz on Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:51 am

Gringo,

What suggests to you that sacred scripture is composed of 66 books and only 66 books if something does? Honest question that deserves a thread of it's own possibly.

I wasn't claiming 1 Enoch was a part of the Apocrypha and sent stuff that came across wrong maybe. Are there not various groups including the Ethiopian Orthodox Church who regard parts or all of it to be inspired Scripture though? Tertullian wrote c. 200 that the Book of Enoch had been rejected by the Jews because it contained prophecies pertaining to Christ perhaps. Did he not naturally suggest that it had not been rejected by Christians about 1,800 years ago if he did?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_En ... ristianity

What do you claim I'm btw incorrect about? Saying 1630 instead of 1629? Maybe the Geneva Bible is not a KJV, but volumes of it were occasionally bound with the pages of the Apocrypha section excluded starting in 1630 according to wikipedia maybe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KJV#Apocrypha

If words of Enoch from the Book of Watchers were quoted as if he actually said the words in Jude, should that not suggest that Jude thought the Book of Watchers contained actual words of Enoch in it? Note: The Book of Watchers is a section of 1 Enoch that deals with angels teaching stuff to mankind and producing offspring with women and parts of it have been identified on several copies from Qumran cave 4 perhaps.

H5303 is not defined as fallen ones by Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon or Strong's Hebrew Lexicon maybe. Who told you nephilim means fallen ones?

Thoughts on what made Anakim giants if something did and they're not descendants of angelic beings?

Has Yahushua (sp?) made it clear that angels haven't left shamayim and produced offspring with women on earth? What if Jones made one or more valid point in here that shouldn't be ignored?

Impressive section having to do with I told you so permission perhaps... maybe we do not see eye to eye on everything, but maybe we have quite a number of things in common and we should try to have love for one another and respectful conversation. What do we really know? : )
Last edited by Lionz on Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Nephilim

Postby b.k. barunt on Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:20 am

daddy1gringo wrote:
b.k. barunt wrote:I agree with all of dgringo's answers to lionz as far as the different versions and translations. The Apocrypha was not included in the KJV and was disallowed by Jerome. There is no evidence that Enoch was ever included in the OT.

Dgringo however is getting desperate with his "meaning" of the Hebrew word "nephiyl". It does not mean "fallen one" as he says. The root word it's taken from is "naphal", which means "to fall". The literal meaning of the word "nephiyl" is "feller" (one who causes to fall) or "bully". Wherever the word is used in the KJV it is translated into "giants". Anyone can check this online. The number in the Strongs Exhaustive Concordance for "nephiyl" is 5303.

So Dgringo, what else might be "misinterpreted" in the Bible? How about the word "salvation"
There's no point in arguing this. You are obviously of the opinion that the King James Version is THE translation, and questioning that translation = questioning the Word of God. In that case, as I said before, sure, nephilim = giants; it says so.

From my point of view, and that of many others, the writers were divinely inspired to write what they wrote and thus the original is inerrant. However, the translation into whatever vernacular is a different matter, and no translation is perfect. God constructed it in such a way that, barring deliberate distortion, any translation will communicate his message just fine. For some of the questionable points though, you need to check the original languages. Other than the fact that the King James translates nephilim as giants, there is no other linguistic reason for the long stretch from "to fall" > "feller" > "bully" > "giant".

If you believe that spirits mated with humans and spawned giants, like Zeus with Hercules, or some kind of incubuses (-bi?), then God bless you.

I'll make you a deal. If you are so willing to believe something because the Bible says so even though it is unbelievable, try this.

I give you permission to spend the first million years telling me "I told you so"; about the KJV, the nephilim and anything else you want, when we find out you are right in heaven. All you have to do is believe that God is able to love you just the way you are, that his blood is able to save and cleanse you no matter how far gone you think you are, and that he is able to work in you both to will and to work, that is to change both your behavior and desires if you will let him. After all, those things are in the same Bible; the KJV for that matter.

That’s my interpretation of the word ā€œsalvation.ā€ Have I misinterpreted it?


Yeah yeah, if you say it quick and move on before anyone questions the contradictory nature of your argument . . .

You believe God inspired men to write the Bible but he didn't inspire them to interpret it . . . mmmkay. The KJV was the only Bible in the common language for almost 400 years. If the KJV is a faulty translation then God gave us a flawed version of His Word for that extended period. What good is that? "All you have to do is . . ." Bullshit! If there is a mistranslation on a minor word then there could very well be a mistranslation on a major one, or several for that manner.

You seem to be very selective in what you believe - hope that works out for ya.


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Re: Nephilim

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:25 pm

b.k. barunt wrote:Yeah yeah, if you say it quick and move on before anyone questions the contradictory nature of your argument . . .

You believe God inspired men to write the Bible but he didn't inspire them to interpret it . . . mmmkay. The KJV was the only Bible in the common language for almost 400 years. If the KJV is a faulty translation then God gave us a flawed version of His Word for that extended period. What good is that? "All you have to do is . . ." Bullshit! If there is a mistranslation on a minor word then there could very well be a mistranslation on a major one, or several for that manner.

I actually gotta side with daddygringo here (as does my church).

The first point is that full and complete translations, particularly "word for word" translations are not always possible from one language to another. This has nothing at all to do with fallibility and a lot to do with fundamental differences in language. Add in cultural differences, and the fact that language can change depending on the culture (do Americans and the English really speak exactly the same language? Or even do northeasterners and southeasterners and west-coasters?). You show your awareness of this many times in your detailed analysis and knowledge of various passages. In some cases, it is better to translate by sections, not "word for word". Again, this has nothing to do with potential errors. Those are another issue. This is just pure differences in language and culture.

BUT, the Bible was translated. It had to be, since people don't still speak the "original" language of the old Testament, whatever that was. So, that means that the words we read, even in the "original" Greek or Hebrew, are not the true "original" words given by God or remembered through the ages.

OK, so what do we have? Some would say "pure garbage". Were this any other book, I would possibly agree. In this case, that cannot be, is not what any Christian or even Jew (for the old Testament) would believe. It does get into this bit about is the Bible "inspired" or not. My church actually doesn't say it is. I tend to lean toward it is, and one of the main reasons is that this one book is an exception in translations. It has been translated to precisely it is amazing.

Still, what does that mean? I don't believe that the inspiration lead to a complete "word for word" translation. I believe it lead to the meanings and understandings, the necessary parts of faith coming through.

That is, I believe that anything important comes through, regardless of the version, the language. That this happens better with the Bible than with any other book, I do attribute, in part to God. However, people are imperfect. Everything we touch is imperfect. We can be given absolutely perfect words and yet twist them. Everything from slavery to child rape has been "justified" using the Bible. Satan can, of course, quote the Bible with ease (we are told).

These problems, though mostly arise when we try to pay detailed attention to minutia and forget to step back and read the whole story, the context. People are forever trying to find more about the Bible, to find the "secret codes", etc. But they are wrong. The Bible is what the Bible is. Its message is clear, but also complicated. Jesus message is the clearest of all. "Love they God and Love thy neighbor". Yet, people ask, "What does that mean?". These questions are why we have so many pages instead of just a sentence. And, Christ told us clearly that was the case. Instead of just listening to the Bible, we have to install leaders, human leaders, who are necessarily fallible. Therein lies the biggest problem.

Now, to get to the King James. It was a product of its time. There are many concepts put forward in that book that, were they not there, might have meant no one would read it, would listen. I would argue that in such a case it cannot be considered an "error", but rather allowing people to hear and come to the message. Other cases just don't matter, but perhaps were allowed to be "mis"-translated because the meaning would be clearer. And example of this might be the "coat of long sleeves" becoming the "coat of many colors". Either meaning fits well for the story. However, its quite possible that people of the time, knowing about limits in dye, etc, would have understood the reference to "many colors" better than the one to "long sleeves". Long sleeves were not particularly optional or only available to the wealthy of the day, but colors were sometimes limited.

Another kind of "error" might be seen in the sea of reeds becoming the Red Sea. If early archeologists had been looking in the Sea of Reeds, they might have found things... and destroyed them.

Of course, I don't claim to know the mind of God, not really. However, I would say that any deception within the Bible, any mistranslation is there with God's full knowledge. I would argue it is not truly a mistake.
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Re: Nephilim

Postby daddy1gringo on Sat Jun 26, 2010 3:33 am

Lionz wrote:Gringo,

What suggests to you that sacred scripture is composed of 66 books and only 66 books if something does? Honest question that deserves a thread of it's own possibly.


Asked and answered. There are reasons why those works included are included and those that are not are not. The current canon may not have been settled at the Council of Nicaea in 325, but it was settled before Athanasius of Alexandria's Easter letter in 367. Except for:

I wasn't claiming 1 Enoch was a part of the Apocrypha and sent stuff that came across wrong maybe.
No, but you were using the fact that there was a controversy over the Apocrypha to insinuate that there was some kind of uncertainty over anything else, like the inclusion of Enoch, which there was not. That's why I said "very clever."


What do you claim I'm btw incorrect about? Saying 1630 instead of 1629? Maybe the Geneva Bible is not a KJV, but volumes of it were occasionally bound with the pages of the Apocrypha section excluded starting in 1630 according to wikipedia maybe.
Incorrect on a technicality for being one year early, and incorrect in substance, by all but a technicality because in all the others, the Apocrypha is "included" in the binding, but not included as inspired scripture, as I said.

If words of Enoch from the Book of Watchers were quoted as if he actually said the words in Jude, should that not suggest that Jude thought the Book of Watchers contained actual words of Enoch in it? Note: The Book of Watchers is a section of 1 Enoch that deals with angels teaching stuff to mankind and producing offspring with women and parts of it have been identified on several copies from Qumran cave 4 perhaps.
Also asked and answered. The Bible quotes other things that are clearly not inspired scripture (except perhaps the part quoted, depending on how you look at it).

H5303 is not defined as fallen ones by Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon or Strong's Hebrew Lexicon maybe.
5303 says "from 5307", which is : "naphal"-"to fall"
Who told you nephilim means fallen ones?
The majority of the commentaries I consulted, written by people who know more about Biblical Hebrew than I do, including John Calvin, Matthew Henry, and the large team of scholars involved in the NIV/NASB Study Bible.

Thoughts on what made Anakim giants if something did and they're not descendants of angelic beings?
Genetics maybe.

Has Yahushua (sp?) made it clear that angels haven't left shamayim and produced offspring with women on earth? What if Jones made one or more valid point in here that shouldn't be ignored?
Here's the verse we're talking about:
Matthew 22:30 -- "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."
The only way around the inference that angels just don't do stuff like that (by nature: "are like") is to take a questionable semantic loophole that angels don't in heaven, but if they come to earth their nature is somehow changed, and they become sexual beings. Is that what you are asserting?

Impressive section having to do with I told you so permission perhaps...
Can't claim credit. It was a divine inspiration (though not the same as scripture of course ;) ) Also kind of stolen from my wife who said something similar to her mother about Catholicism.
maybe we do not see eye to eye on everything, but maybe we have quite a number of things in common and we should try to have love for one another
Dude, I never stopped.
and respectful conversation.
Never stopped that either.
What do we really know? : )
As previously stated, I only "know" Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Anything else I'm willing to be shown wrong and adjust my theology.

My concern is with the readers of these threads who have been told that the Bible is no different from mythologies. I only wish to show that there is an alternate way to understand this verse that smells less of mythology and that they may think makes more sense, as I also think it makes more sense in context with everything.
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Re: Nephilim

Postby daddy1gringo on Sat Jun 26, 2010 4:37 am

b.k. barunt wrote:Yeah yeah, if you say it quick and move on before anyone questions the contradictory nature of your argument . . .

You believe God inspired men to write the Bible but he didn't inspire them to interpret it.
Absolutely. God promises that those who wrote the scriptures were inspired by Him (e.g. 2 Tim 3:16: (KJV) "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:", 2 Peter 1:21(KJV): "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.") Where does scripture promise something similar about translation?
The KJV was the only Bible in the common language for almost 400 years.
Wrong. Wycliffe's English translation was completed in the 1380's and still exists despite the efforts to burn it. Then there were the 7 others all pre-dating the KJV, that I listed in my response to Lionz a ways back
If the KJV is a faulty translation then God gave us a flawed version of His Word for that extended period. What good is that?
That's assuming that there is supposed to be a perfect translation, which God never promised there would be. Unless you want to add that to the Word.
You seem to be very selective in what you believe - hope that works out for ya.
Selective? Well, yeah. I only select the things that God has actually said to believe, not doctrines that are not in the Bible, that men made up and insist I must believe also. It works out quite well, thank you.
"All you have to do is . . ." Bullshit! If there is a mistranslation on a minor word then there could very well be a mistranslation on a major one, or several for that manner.
Exactly. You believe that the KJV is the inspired translation of the Scriptures, and that we should believe what it says. I'm cool with that. According to any Bible, including the King James, as I said, "God is able to love you just the way you are, that his blood is able to save and cleanse you no matter how far gone you think you are, and that he is able to work in you both to will and to work, that is, to change both your behavior and desires, if you will let him."

My offer stands. Believe those things and I will be glad to stand and listen to you tell me "I told you so" about everything else for as long as you like.

I think God wants to see you there too. Stuffy religious people bore him.
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Re: Nephilim

Postby b.k. barunt on Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:20 am

daddy1gringo wrote:
b.k. barunt wrote:Yeah yeah, if you say it quick and move on before anyone questions the contradictory nature of your argument . . .

You believe God inspired men to write the Bible but he didn't inspire them to interpret it.
Absolutely. God promises that those who wrote the scriptures were inspired by Him (e.g. 2 Tim 3:16: (KJV) "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:", 2 Peter 1:21(KJV): "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.") Where does scripture promise something similar about translation?.


The main point seems to be zooming over your head in a rather abrupt fashion. It doesn't matter how "inspired" the Bible is if it's flawed. Whether the flaw is in the original writing or the translation of such it is still flawed . You say the "important parts" are not flawed . . .wtf?? How do you know that? If you believe it's flawed then you are basing your faith on a maybe. Anything you read in that book may have been mistranslated.


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Re: Nephilim

Postby 2dimes on Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:33 am

daddy1gringo wrote: Stuffy religious people bore him.

That's not true but, he sees them differently than we do.

Were you going for "self rightious" religious people? No, that's not an accusation incase anyone's reading it like it is.
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Re: Nephilim

Postby b.k. barunt on Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:34 am

2dimes wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote: Stuffy religious people bore him.

That's not true but, he sees them differently than we do.

Were you going for "self rightious" religious people? No, that's not an accusation incase anyone's reading it like it is.


Actually "stuffy religious people" piss Him off. Anyhow that's the idea i got from the way Jesus treated them.


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Re: Nephilim

Postby 2dimes on Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:40 am

Verse?

I admit I'm a lot rusty at the bible but my recollection is, Jesus didn't like it when you were all religious, acting like you were better than everyone else. Following all the rules as interpreted by the latest trends. Then when no one was looking you're just a scumbag like me, unable to behave to the high standards you set for everyone else. No?
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Re: Nephilim

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:54 am

2dimes wrote:Verse?

I admit I'm a lot rusty at the bible but my recollection is, Jesus didn't like it when you were all religious, acting like you were better than everyone else. Following all the rules as interpreted by the latest trends. Then when no one was looking you're just a scumbag like me, unable to behave to the high standards you set for everyone else. No?

Its much deeper than that.

When you pay attention only to the rules, its not just that you might be hypocritical. That is often true, but its also that you lose sight of the real purpose of the law. As in when they questioned Jesus about healing on the Sabbath and the various other "traps". Yet, they had no problem with for profit money lenders and sellers of all kinds of good in the temple itself. To Jesus all such things were profane and angered him.

Instead, he celebrated both the Prostitute who admitted her sin, but loved Jesus, knew him and believed him. He also sat down with tax collectors and others who were reviled by the traditional Jewish leadership.

Christ tells us not to do away with the law, because, basically, we fallible human beings need guidelines and they provide that. However, the real law is and always has been as he said "love thy God and love they neighbor". The change that Christ brought is that if we ever see a conflict, eihter within the law or between the law and the overriding rule, it is the rule we must keep in mind and not let ourselves get too bogged down in the details.

When people rely too much upon "pomp" and "being holy" and "following rules", they are essentially "bragging". They are setting up rules that they must follow that others, by inferance either cannot or will not. God, by contrast is open to all. That is not to say he excuses bad behavior, but God might dirrect people differently because God, unlike us, can see our whole heart, knows the whole future, etc.

Or, to put it another way, a human might see a nice businessman in a suit who goes to church every Sunday, teaches Sunday school, has wonderful kids and a family and look up to him, but see a begger on the street and look down. Christ/God might see that the man in the business suit came from a good family, had a wonderful education and has had no real trials. The begger might have had none of that, might have barely escaped being on drugs, might have left a cult and found Christianity, but not been able to find a job or place to live... etc. BUT, here is the thing, if that man on the street is, by being on the street, able to talk to ohters who don't know Christ and is able to in a real way, helo those "street people" heal, (perhaps come to Christ, but perhaps not right away by any means). Whereas the man in the Sunday school might only be talking to people who are already other Christians (and I don't mean simply that he refrains from being obnoxious to people who don't ask to talk about religion.. I mean he actively avoids people who are not in his church, has almost no contact with people who are not Christian by intention). Then I would say that the street man might be closer to God and following God's dictates more than the man who, superficially appears to be "better".
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Re: Nephilim

Postby b.k. barunt on Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:30 am

Well the TV preacher looked so baffled when i asked him why he dressed
With twenty pounds of headlights stapled to his chest
But he cursed me when i proved to him
And said not even you can hide
You see you're just like me
I hope you're satisfied

Bob Dylan, "Stuck Inside of Mobile with the Memphis Blues Again".


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Postby Lionz on Sun Jun 27, 2010 3:33 am

Player,

If Yom Suph is supposed to refer to a lake that has dried up or a lagoon on the north coast of the Sinai Peninsula, then can you help me understand 1 Kings 9:26? Solomon made a navy of ships on a shore of it perhaps.

Gringo,

What are the reasons? Maybe He inspired people to make decisions at the Council of Nicaea for all I know and I'm seriously curious.

Either way, has the Ethiopian Orthodox Church ever excluded 1 Enoch from a canon? Interesting claim by Tertullian that's worth looking into maybe.

Maybe whether or not I was trying to use a controversy over the Apocrypha to insinuate that there was some kind of uncertainty over something else comes down to definition. You said this and I was trying to figure out what you considered to be the Bible maybe...

What questions? If you mean why do I say that something NOT in the Bible does not have the same authority as something that IS in the Bible, I can only answer, "Are you serious?"

Are there not people including Catholics who consider the Apocrypha to be part of the Bible? What do you claim the Apocrypha is included in binding of and not included as inspired scripture in? Can you not go find Catholic Bibles in 2010 where that does not hold true?

Did you not refer to stuff that Epimenides and Aratus and Menander actually said? If so, did Jude quote stuff from 1 Enoch that Enoch actually said?

Who's referred to in 2 Peter 2:4 if not angels that are also referred to in 1 Enoch? It comes right before mention of Noah and the flood perhaps. Compare with Genesis 6:1-4?

Where is there a semantic loophole? Why did He even refer to angels IN HEAVEN as opposed to angels in general if that's what occured? And did He ever say angels were not given in marriage because of a nature of them or claim that they were not sexual beings? You ask me if I'm asserting something while making incorrect assumptions about angels and one or more thing said possibly. Does 1 Corinthians 11:10 not mean to suggest that angels can lust over women?

You might be concerned about mixing in personal beliefs with anything considered to be Greek Mythology, but you might already believe in Hades. Aka G0086? Truth is that there's little to nothing considered mythology that's not severely distorted history maybe.
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Postby Lionz on Sun Jun 27, 2010 3:44 am

Nice time for me to throw in this as a reference if I have not done so in here already maybe...

http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-1.htm

See a section numbered 1 in a Chapter numbered 3? Josephus is a famous historian who lived in the first century and he can at least help us better understand what first century Yahudim thought about Genesis 6:1-4 maybe... maybe people will also look here for a section numbered 3 in a Chapter numbered 2...

http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-5.htm
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Re: Nephilim

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Jun 27, 2010 8:22 am

b.k. barunt wrote:Well the TV preacher looked so baffled when i asked him why he dressed
With twenty pounds of headlights stapled to his chest
But he cursed me when i proved to him
And said not even you can hide
You see you're just like me
I hope you're satisfied

Bob Dylan, "Stuck Inside of Mobile with the Memphis Blues Again".


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Re: Nephilim

Postby b.k. barunt on Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:28 am

Yep.


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Re: Nephilim

Postby 2dimes on Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:28 am

Five Iron Frenzy wrote:Perfection never was a requierment. Allthough some folks say we desired it.
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Re: Nephilim

Postby daddy1gringo on Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:43 am

Sorry for the long-overdue response. BK and Lionz, you may be right. That certainly is one way to read those verses, and you certainly are not alone. I think I have accomplished my purpose.

I was posting for those who are unsure and questioning about the Bible, and about the Gospel, good news, that you can be forgiven for everything you have ever done wrong and come into a loving relationship with your creator through the sacrifice of His Son. For those of you who would like to accept that, but the credibility of the Bible is hurt in your eyes because this and perhaps other obscure passages sound too much like mythology, there are other ways to read it. That need not be a stumbling block for you.
The right answer to the wrong question is still the wrong answer to the real question.
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Re: Nephilim

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:44 am

daddy1gringo wrote:Sorry for the long-overdue response. BK and Lionz, you may be right. That certainly is one way to read those verses, and you certainly are not alone. I think I have accomplished my purpose.

I was posting for those who are unsure and questioning about the Bible, and about the Gospel, good news, that you can be forgiven for everything you have ever done wrong and come into a loving relationship with your creator through the sacrifice of His Son. For those of you who would like to accept that, but the credibility of the Bible is hurt in your eyes because this and perhaps other obscure passages sound too much like mythology, there are other ways to read it. That need not be a stumbling block for you.

good post
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