[GP] [Rules] Eliminate Deferred Troops

[jefjef]

missing turns is not a legit strategy. It has been proven again and again.

This website is a social gaming site and they wont penalise people for having a life

So they prefer to penalize those of us who do not miss turns? Especially after we WAIT for the missed turn and rudely take our turn...

Deferred troops need to go. Some do use this as a strategy and have success with it.

AND I was sitting someones turn a couple days back when the CC server crash or whatever happened kept me from deploying. Turn was started but since YOUR server kept me from deploying and I wasn't able to sit around and wait to finish the turn those troops were forever lost. = Penalized for having a RL and not being able to sit and wait for CC to fix it's issue.

Deferred needs to end. It's only right.

[Woodruff]

Concise description:

• Get rid of "deferred" troops after missing a turn.

Specifics/Details:

• See above

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:

• When somebody misses a turn, he/she misses a turn and shouldn't get troops for that. It's really unfair, because it often turns the game in favor of whoever missed a turn.

I definitely do not agree that it typically turns the game in favor of whoever missed a turn. From a strategic standpoint, it is a failing strategy that simply cannot be maintained as a positive consistently.

That being said, I AM of the opinion that this suggestion would be valid for SPEED games, simply due to the time wasted sitting around waiting for someone to take their turn. In my view, speed games do not fall under the purview of "casual gaming" as the site employs it.

[Queen_Herpes]

Concise description:

• Get rid of "deferred" troops after missing a turn.

Specifics/Details:

• See above

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:

• When somebody misses a turn, he/she misses a turn and shouldn't get troops for that. It's really unfair, because it often turns the game in favor of whoever missed a turn.

I definitely do not agree that it typically turns the game in favor of whoever missed a turn. From a strategic standpoint, it is a failing strategy that simply cannot be maintained as a positive consistently.

That being said, I AM of the opinion that this suggestion would be valid for SPEED games, simply due to the time wasted sitting around waiting for someone to take their turn. In my view, speed games do not fall under the purview of "casual gaming" as the site employs it.

Agreed, speed only.

[MegasWoman]

I think it should be for ALL games. Yes, real life or site issues can intervene BUT there are always consequences to actions/choices aren't there? You miss a turn-then you miss a turn and lose those troops. Oh well-maybe next time you won't miss the turn.

[jefjef]

Concise description:

• Get rid of "deferred" troops after missing a turn.

Specifics/Details:

• See above

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:

• When somebody misses a turn, he/she misses a turn and shouldn't get troops for that. It's really unfair, because it often turns the game in favor of whoever missed a turn.

I definitely do not agree that it typically turns the game in favor of whoever missed a turn. From a strategic standpoint, it is a failing strategy that simply cannot be maintained as a positive consistently.

Dear spock.

The OP did not claim that it typically turns the game in favor of the missing turn player. But the deferred troops crap can AND has been known to turn games around to favor those that use that tactic.

Deferred troops should go to the wayside. Take this cheap tactic away and don't reward those who are too busy to play and only slow down the game.

How about worrying about "fairness" to those who do take turns and progresses the game.

[Lindax]

Concise description:

• Get rid of "deferred" troops after missing a turn.

Specifics/Details:

• See above

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:

• When somebody misses a turn, he/she misses a turn and shouldn't get troops for that. It's really unfair, because it often turns the game in favor of whoever missed a turn.

This has been discussed again and again. This would hurt more people than it would help. You are basically punishing people for having life intervene, or something close to that. We can't force this upon everyone. It could be made as an option, but there are way more con's then pro's if this is forced upon the whole of CC.

I don't care if it has been discussed before. If you miss a turn YOU should receive punishment, not the opponents taking their turns.

What's wrong with punishing people "for having (real) life" intervene? They're not getting punished in real life, only in the ongoing games they're in on this site (which is where they missed their turn). Again, why would the player(s) taking their turns get the short end of the stick?

More con's than pro's eh? Could you be so kind and list them for me? I don't see con's....

Respectfully,

Lx

[Woodruff]

Concise description:

• Get rid of "deferred" troops after missing a turn.

Specifics/Details:

• See above

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:

• When somebody misses a turn, he/she misses a turn and shouldn't get troops for that. It's really unfair, because it often turns the game in favor of whoever missed a turn.

I definitely do not agree that it typically turns the game in favor of whoever missed a turn. From a strategic standpoint, it is a failing strategy that simply cannot be maintained as a positive consistently.

Dear spock.
The OP did not claim that it typically turns the game in favor of the missing turn player.

Dear not-Spock.
What do you believe the term "often" means in the context in which it is used?

But the deferred troops crap can AND has been known to turn games around to favor those that use that tactic.

And? Psychotically attacking everything in sight can AND has been known to turn games around to favor those that use that tactic. Like the above, it is a failing strategy that simply cannot be maintained as a positive consistently.

[jefjef]

Concise description:

• Get rid of "deferred" troops after missing a turn.

Specifics/Details:

• See above

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:

• When somebody misses a turn, he/she misses a turn and shouldn't get troops for that. It's really unfair, because it often turns the game in favor of whoever missed a turn.

I definitely do not agree that it typically turns the game in favor of whoever missed a turn. From a strategic standpoint, it is a failing strategy that simply cannot be maintained as a positive consistently.

Dear spock.
The OP did not claim that it typically turns the game in favor of the missing turn player.

Dear not-Spock.
What do you believe the term "often" means in the context in which it is used?

But the deferred troops crap can AND has been known to turn games around to favor those that use that tactic.

And? Psychotically attacking everything in sight can AND has been known to turn games around to favor those that use that tactic. Like the above, it is a failing strategy that simply cannot be maintained as a positive consistently.

Well dear teacher,

I'm sure you understand the different meanings and usages of "often" vs "typically".

What is confusing is why people think that if you miss a turn and delay the game you should be "rewarded" with the ability to drop a stack that can and has changed outcomes of games. Yes this crap is used as a strategy. Cheap tactics and delays the damn game.

Take the turn in the allotted time or lose it. If you start a turn and do not deploy before time expires you do not get the deferment but if you don't even bother to attempt the turn you get them.

It's obvious from some mod comments that "deferred" is intended to not punish those who are truly unable to timely take a turn. On the same hand it is abused and used as a strategy and punishes those who do take their turns.

[TheForgivenOne]

Sometimes stuff happens. You miss turns. If you eliminate deferred troops, you are basically shooting someone in the foot if they should happen to miss. They are out. That is such a major deficit to come back from - missing a turn, not being able to respond to attacks by opponents for a whole round, AND losing all of your extra troops? Deferred troops allow people who miss, and are put at a major disadvantage because of it, the chance to get back into the battle.

Con - We are punishing people for unexpected interruptions in life, by taking away the ability to A) Earn a card, which can be HUGE in escalating B) They don't get a chance at taking any territories during the miss turn, that means they can't break a bonus, or take a bonus. C) They can't put up defenses for their bonuses. The fact that you allow them to keep their bonus, while they miss, is your fault. They are in no way getting more troops then you.

So whoopdydoo, you had to wait an extra 24 hours before you get to take your turn, actually it's less than that. And what happens if this player takes his turn with 10 minutes left in a turn. So instead of waiting 24 hours, you had to wait 23 hours and 50 minutes. There's no major difference between those 2 times.

Removing deferred troops will give New Recruits less reason to come back. If they read the instructions, and noticed that if they miss a turn, they lose those troops, they will think, jeez, i'm basically screwed in all those games.

Another thing, i was reading an older thread about this, and i quote

People in public games don't recognize that missing a turn is a disadvantage. In high level and clan games, missing a turn is like painting a target on your back. With the lower troop count, people will break your bonuses and target your territories. It's simply a matter of people recognizing that weakness and punishing the turn misser for it.

As i said, people are punished enough for missing a turn. In cards, you miss chances to grab a card. You have a chance at losing a bonus, or troops due. You don't have the possibility of grabbing more territories/breaking a bonus/earning a bonus.

What is confusing is why people think that if you miss a turn and delay the game you should be "rewarded" with the ability to drop a stack that can and has changed outcomes of games. Yes this crap is used as a strategy. Cheap tactics and delays the damn game.

Well, what's the difference between someone missing a turn (Taking 24 hours), and someone taking a turn with 5-10 minutes left (Taking 23 hours and 50-55 minutes). Not a huge difference.

And how is it a "Reward" if you are actually playing smart opponents, and take this missed turn to their advantage? By targeting you and you alone. You had a bonus of +2 and, +4 for a total of +6. Suddenly, you no longer have this bonus, and you are down to about 8 territories. So you only have +3 to attack with, and a 6 you get to drop AFTER you turn, which you can't use at all for the rest of that turn.

If missing turns was such a great strategy, why don't high rankers do it? It's because experienced players are going to target the player who does that. So you get a deferred drop. Those troops are just dead weight. 3v2 attackers dice work in your favor. I've taken out many stacks larger than mine simply by using attackers dice advantage. Also, if the player is controlling a bonus, breaking it will reduce the deferred troops too. Honestly, if you understand the game mechanics, missing a turn is never advantageous.

[jefjef]

Sometimes stuff happens. You miss turns. If you eliminate deferred troops, you are basically shooting someone in the foot if they should happen to miss. They are out. That is such a major deficit to come back from - missing a turn, not being able to respond to attacks by opponents for a whole round, AND losing all of your extra troops? Deferred troops allow people who miss, and are put at a major disadvantage because of it, the chance to get back into the battle.

Con - We are punishing people for unexpected interruptions in life, by taking away the ability to A) Earn a card, which can be HUGE in escalating B) They don't get a chance at taking any territories during the miss turn, that means they can't break a bonus, or take a bonus. C) They can't put up defenses for their bonuses. The fact that you allow them to keep their bonus, while they miss, is your fault. They are in no way getting more troops then you.

So whoopdydoo, you had to wait an extra 24 hours before you get to take your turn, actually it's less than that. And what happens if this player takes his turn with 10 minutes left in a turn. So instead of waiting 24 hours, you had to wait 23 hours and 50 minutes. There's no major difference between those 2 times.

Removing deferred troops will give New Recruits less reason to come back. If they read the instructions, and noticed that if they miss a turn, they lose those troops, they will think, jeez, i'm basically screwed in all those games.

Another thing, i was reading an older thread about this, and i quote

People in public games don't recognize that missing a turn is a disadvantage. In high level and clan games, missing a turn is like painting a target on your back. With the lower troop count, people will break your bonuses and target your territories. It's simply a matter of people recognizing that weakness and punishing the turn misser for it.

As i said, people are punished enough for missing a turn. In cards, you miss chances to grab a card. You have a chance at losing a bonus, or troops due. You don't have the possibility of grabbing more territories/breaking a bonus/earning a bonus.

What is confusing is why people think that if you miss a turn and delay the game you should be "rewarded" with the ability to drop a stack that can and has changed outcomes of games. Yes this crap is used as a strategy. Cheap tactics and delays the damn game.

Well, what's the difference between someone missing a turn (Taking 24 hours), and someone taking a turn with 5-10 minutes left (Taking 23 hours and 50-55 minutes). Not a huge difference.

And how is it a "Reward" if you are actually playing smart opponents, and take this missed turn to their advantage? By targeting you and you alone. You had a bonus of +2 and, +4 for a total of +6. Suddenly, you no longer have this bonus, and you are down to about 8 territories. So you only have +3 to attack with, and a 6 you get to drop AFTER you turn, which you can't use at all for the rest of that turn.

If missing turns was such a great strategy, why don't high rankers do it? It's because experienced players are going to target the player who does that. So you get a deferred drop. Those troops are just dead weight. 3v2 attackers dice work in your favor. I've taken out many stacks larger than mine simply by using attackers dice advantage. Also, if the player is controlling a bonus, breaking it will reduce the deferred troops too. Honestly, if you understand the game mechanics, missing a turn is never advantageous.

Let me properly respond. I HARDLY play spoils games. If they have a bonus and I'm unable to break it, it would be because of these wonderful random cubes, not from lack of trying. Players that miss turn usually AREN'T holding a bonus.

And no where have I ever said that missing turns is a GREAT STRATEGY. It's cheap tactics crap.

Learn to freaking read.

And stop punishing those of us who take the time to take our turns without delaying the game.

You say whoopdydoo, you had to wait 24 hours. Well I'm in a 6 player dubs game with bonuses held by all and guarded and 2 of them in a row and a 3rd has missed a turn in the same round. Thats 72 hours. And when they get around to taking their turn they get a nice pile to drop. My team was not in a condition/position to break anything.

DEFERRED NEEDS TO GO.

[Lindax]

1.- I was never talking about, or referring to, missing a turn as a "strategy". I never said it was an advantage to miss turns.

2.- The con's mentioned (by TFO), only apply to the player missing a turn. How about the con for a player that does not miss turns, gets on with the game, and suddenly sees an "extra" amount of troops deployed? I'm talking about con's for players who do not miss their turn, not about pro's for the player who did miss his turn.

3.- Real life happens, and we all know what real life is. I basically see 2 main reasons for a player to miss a turn:

A.- Not paying attention, can't be bothered today cause I have a hangover, I don't care too much I get deferred troops anyway.

B.- Act of god. Accident, server down, anything like that.

Since we never know what the reason was, we cannot differentiate. Doesn't matter though, because the player who does not miss his turns should be awarded, not "punished" by deferred troops.

Obviously, the player in example A shouldn't get deferred troops. Now, should the player in example B? I think not. Did the player who missed a turn do everything to prevent it? Have somebody watch over his turns/games for example? If not, that player probably doesn't take the game serious enough to start with and would mind not getting deferred troops. And, if it's anything more serious than a server outage, the player probably has more important things to worry about.

In my mind there is no reason why a player who misses a turn should get deferred troops. And I still haven't seen a valid "con" for all players involved against that statement.

Lx

[Hornet95]

Doing away with deferred troops typically does not hurt the 'responsible' CC player. Let me explain:

If you are in a game and the round number is less than 10:
- If you are going on a vacation, you shouldn't have started that game.
- If you/your mom/your dad/your kid/your aunt/your favorite squirrel goes to the hospital/funeral home, etc, missing a turn on CC is going to be the last thing you will be mourning about.

If it is past round 10, you've typically set up a strategy and have back up plans in place in case something happens, whether that be 'life happening' or 'red and blue suddenly become best friends and decide to whoop you.'

[Queen_Herpes]

1.- I was never talking about, or referring to, missing a turn as a "strategy". I never said it was an advantage to miss turns.

2.- The con's mentioned (by TFO), only apply to the player missing a turn. How about the con for a player that does not miss turns, gets on with the game, and suddenly sees an "extra" amount of troops deployed? I'm talking about con's for players who do not miss their turn, not about pro's for the player who did miss his turn.

3.- Real life happens, and we all know what real life is. I basically see 2 main reasons for a player to miss a turn:

A.- Not paying attention, can't be bothered today cause I have a hangover, I don't care too much I get deferred troops anyway.

B.- Act of god. Accident, server down, anything like that.

Since we never know what the reason was, we cannot differentiate. Doesn't matter though, because the player who does not miss his turns should be awarded, not "punished" by deferred troops.

Obviously, the player in example A shouldn't get deferred troops. Now, should the player in example B? I think not. Did the player who missed a turn do everything to prevent it? Have somebody watch over his turns/games for example? If not, that player probably doesn't take the game serious enough to start with and would mind not getting deferred troops. And, if it's anything more serious than a server outage, the player probably has more important things to worry about.

In my mind there is no reason why a player who misses a turn should get deferred troops. And I still haven't seen a valid "con" for all players involved against that statement.

Lx

Correct. Deferred needs to go. Kudos to you for a well-written response.

[Woodruff]

2.- The con's mentioned (by TFO), only apply to the player missing a turn. How about the con for a player that does not miss turns, gets on with the game, and suddenly sees an "extra" amount of troops deployed?

Those AREN'T "extra" troops...they're exactly the same troops that would have been there if the player had deployed and then immediately ended their turn. It's not difficult to plan for those troops to be added later rather than sooner, if you're paying attention.

[TheSaxlad]

2.- The con's mentioned (by TFO), only apply to the player missing a turn. How about the con for a player that does not miss turns, gets on with the game, and suddenly sees an "extra" amount of troops deployed?

Those AREN'T "extra" troops...they're exactly the same troops that would have been there if the player had deployed and then immediately ended their turn. It's not difficult to plan for those troops to be added later rather than sooner, if you're paying attention.

Yes, but you have a turn to counter the troops there rather than 14 rather than 7 being placed and wiping your bonus.

I don't agree that deferred troops should be removed however they should be equally placed over the map, perhaps by a computer, or only be used as defensive troops so noone gets an attacking advantage.

[Darwins_Bane]

2.- The con's mentioned (by TFO), only apply to the player missing a turn. How about the con for a player that does not miss turns, gets on with the game, and suddenly sees an "extra" amount of troops deployed?

Those AREN'T "extra" troops...they're exactly the same troops that would have been there if the player had deployed and then immediately ended their turn. It's not difficult to plan for those troops to be added later rather than sooner, if you're paying attention.

Yes, but you have a turn to counter the troops there rather than 14 rather than 7 being placed and wiping your bonus.

I don't agree that deferred troops should be removed however they should be equally placed over the map, perhaps by a computer, or only be used as defensive troops so noone gets an attacking advantage.

thats the exact reason you deploy deferred troops at the end of your turn. then if someone else takes their turn and you can go again its just like any other turn.

[Queen_Herpes]

Well, at this point, Lindax everyone has shown great support of your idea. No one has come up with a reasonable argument to the contrary. Good suggestion.

*to-do*

[lord voldemort]

actually no qh i hit the nail on the head as did woodruff
a) tactical advantage is rare from missing turns (hence you dont see good players doing it)
b) cc is a casual gaming site and wont punish people for missing turns. Taking away deferred troops means you miss a turn its game over...no coming back from it.

This wont change simply for that last reason. Hence its been rejected many times before and why it will be rejected this time

[Lindax]

actually no qh i hit the nail on the head as did woodruff
a) tactical advantage is rare from missing turns (hence you dont see good players doing it)
b) cc is a casual gaming site and wont punish people for missing turns. Taking away deferred troops means you miss a turn its game over...no coming back from it.

This wont change simply for that last reason. Hence its been rejected many times before and why it will be rejected this time

a) tactical advantage is rare from missing turns (hence you dont see good players doing it)

It shouldn't be rare, it should be non-existent.

b) cc is a casual gaming site and wont punish people for missing turns. Taking away deferred troops means you miss a turn its game over...no coming back from it.

Not true. The players not missing their turns get punished for another player missing a turn. And missing one turn does rarely mean game over.

You're totally missing the point.

Besides, merely the fact that it has been rejected before does not mean this cannot be looked into again.

Lx

[lord voldemort]

a) the only reason it is existant is because of poor dice/poor quality of play

b) missing one turn without deferred troops will mean game over.
players dont get punished for others missng a turn. They have 24 hours to take their turns so nothing is lost there. I tell you now in every clan match and important team game i take the clock down to the last hour most turns. Deadbeating out is annoying to others. but thats a whole other issue. We are talking about players missing turns and coming back, for whatever reason.
Im saying this will be rejected again simply for the reasons before its a casual gaming site and cc wont punish players for missing turns.

[TheForgivenOne]

I don't agree that deferred troops should be removed however they should be equally placed over the map, perhaps by a computer, or only be used as defensive troops so noone gets an attacking advantage.

This was actually rejected before by the turtle himself. Because how would this help in an Adjacent game? All of a sudden, you have a couple troops way in the corner, and you have to spend 14 turns getting them back to your front line.

[Woodruff]

b) cc is a casual gaming site and wont punish people for missing turns. Taking away deferred troops means you miss a turn its game over...no coming back from it.

Not true. The players not missing their turns get punished for another player missing a turn. And missing one turn does rarely mean game over.

No, players who don't miss their turns are NOT being punished. Not in any way. From the "player who doesn't miss his turns" perspective, he is facing precisely the same number of armies he would be facing if the individual deployed and logged out, except that he doesn't even need to face them as soon...he can face them a turn later.

[Lindax]

We can split hairs over the use of certain words and there is not one answer about advantage or disadvantage for players who miss turns and players who don't.

It all depends on the game type, the settings, which round, etc. There are definitely examples where a turn-misser has an advantage because of deferred troops. Just the mere fact that you never know where they are going to be deployed is a disadvantage for those not missing their turns.

In my opinion there should simply never be a chance of that advantage for somebody who misses a turn.

I have stated my opinion and given my suggestion. I'm not going to continue going back and forth discussing either. I'm obviously not alone in my views and I'll let this forum play it out as it is intended to do. I can only suggest and I have done that.

Here's one thing I wonder about though(from Andy's "How Suggestions Work"):

The lack of "official" input from time to time on suggestions.

Lx

[Queen_Herpes]

Keep up the great work, Lindax. As you astutely have proven, getting rid of deferred troops is the right thing to do.

I, myself, have fallen victim to losing games to players who have missed turns. A missed turn is quite a bonus for the reasons you mentioned. In addition, the deferred troops do not enter the realm of "being attackable" on the turn(s) following the missed turns. They can neither provide defense nor offense for the player who missed, but most importantly, those armies aren't "risked" for one or more rounds.

As a thought, perhaps the troops can be forcibly dropped on random territories?

[TheForgivenOne]

Keep up the great work, Lindax. As you astutely have proven, getting rid of deferred troops is the right thing to do.

I, myself, have fallen victim to losing games to players who have missed turns. A missed turn is quite a bonus for the reasons you mentioned. In addition, the deferred troops do not enter the realm of "being attackable" on the turn(s) following the missed turns. They can neither provide defense nor offense for the player who missed, but most importantly, those armies aren't "risked" for one or more rounds.

As a thought, perhaps the troops can be forcibly dropped on random territories?

And as i said before, lack shot down this particular suggestion.