[Abandoned] - Tenochtitlan

[TuckerCase]

Tenochtitlan was the capital of the Aztec empire. The city was inhabited by 200,000 people, or possibly more, and was built out in the middle of a lake somewhere close to modern day Mexico City. The invading Spaniards, under the leadership of Cortez sacked the city, and destroyed it completely. Pretty cool, huh? Now it's your turn to try to do the same.

A quick note first, I used the ocean background that Freakshow suggested to Marvaddin for his new map. Marvaddin did use it in combination with another ocean to create a new ocean entirely, and I think it's far enough apart for there not to be a problem. I asked freakshow about it in PM, but didn't want to wait for a reply to start hearing opinions. So at this point it could change.

Now on to notes about this map:

- The temple complex is the heart of the city, and reflects it with it's very high bonus. I really wanted to simulate the feeling of a real city battle, or a siege. The temple complex will be hotly contested, and I feel it won't be easy for anyone to capture, but because of such a high bonus everyone will need to give it their attention, to stop rivals from gaining it. I think it could make for interesting game play.

- The two continents made up of ships are pretty much worthless as continents go. No one can succeed by trying to control the ships as a main base of support. The ships are only intended to support your troops on shore. If you look at the links, controlling some of the ships will shorten the number of countries you need to hold for each continent. I really don't like the idea of someone being able to build a powerful base outside of the city, but it still adds some dynamic elements, and also directs the fighting inward.

- The names I used on the map were intended to give it a more familiar feeling. I didn't want to randomly look up a lot of Aztec words, and annoy everyone, including me, to death. The only Aztec words I used were for the canoes, because I was stumped about what to name canoes.

- The map isn't finished, but how it's laid out now is how I want the game to play. So comment, or try to convince me otherwise.

[rocksolid]

I think the concept is brilliant - I really like the crazy bonus for the temple, it makes sense for the concept and will be very unique, though it's sure to find some hataz around here.

Graphics definitely need some work - text visibility is a bit dodgy right now, and the lines from ship to shore are very faint. A lot of people here have crappy monitors and poor colour vision, so keep that in mind.

Also, there's a couple of misplaced apostrophes - Pyramid of the gods, no apostrophe, and Rich Villas, no apostrophe. And I think some names could do with some changing - "Urban Sprawl" sounds a little anachronistic, even if it isn't.

That thing in Spear Maker isn't quite a hit yet. Looks like a grape in blue jello.

Also, maybe instead of saying Spanish Ships and Aztec Ships, you could say Spanish Ships and Aztec Canoes, since people might not pick up on how to differentiate Spanish vs. Aztec (obvious though it may be).

As for the water, it doesn't feel very watery yet - seems more like your map is floating in the clouds rather than being an island in a lake. Maybe make the canals/rivers the same water as the lake.

Again, great concept, very unique by a simple manipulation of bonuses in an unorthodox way.

[AndyDufresne]

Well lets see...


---I won't comment too much on visuals due to this being the early working. But I will say I agree with Rock's post about the water feeling like a cloud. Also the ships don't seem quite to fit with the map, perhaps because they are real life representations. Have you considered looking into more picturesque--'cartoonish' images (I.E. not real photos)

---The legend idea is interesting, but some names are rather hard to read. Perhaps look into different fonts that are more representational for the Aztec era. Perhaps even calling the residential area just Residential.

---I like your experimentation with placing images under certain country names, though I am not sure it works out how it was intended. I think your best bet would be to investigate some textures for the continental areas

================================

---I count 42 countries, so that is nice.

---As Rock noted the overly high bonus idea is interesting, something we should look into. It’s a unique idea, and I like that you are trying ti centralize battles. But I must say a bonus of 10 might turn the tides way too much. I think a bonus of 8 would be sufficient, and still quite high.

---One thing I am afraid of is all the other continents. They have horrendous borders, even the smallest one can't be held for a justifiable bonus.

Yellow = 3 Borders
Red = 4 Borders
Purple = 4 Borders
Orange = 8 Borders
Blue = 5 Borders
White = 3 Borders

White is the only one that seems to have thought taken into the borders. I think you can eliminate some of the boat --> continent borders while still keeping the effect you set out to establish.

---Also are the rivers merely placed in their respective regions or are they accurate geographic features?

================================

---Overall I think the border issues need to be addressed to make the map more playable. The central 'Dominant Continent' is a likeable idea, but useless if you really can't hold any of the other 'Camp Continents'.


--Andy

[cracker]

I like the idea of doing a map like this. I think that the resedential areas should have a higher bonus because 5 armies for 10-8-8 (countries-borders-countries to invade from) seems low. I'd say 6 atleast. And it is really hard to read the yellow continents name on the key. I'm guessing it's 'Harbor'. Other than the water and the ships and what i said, everything else looks good Can't wait to play!!!

[haha]

i cant read the legend

[TuckerCase]

I agree that the borders need to be updated. Harbor, Market Place, Smith District, Merchant District are the 4 continents that I'm concerned with making relatively easy to hold.

I could bring the number of borders for Harbor, and Market Place down to 3 each, which will turn into only 2 borders if one also controls the adjacent ship next to them. So that would be like a 5 country continent with 2 borders for 2 bonus.

I could bring the Smith District, and Merchant District down to 4 borders each, which will turn into 3 borders if one controls the adjacent ship next to those. So that would be like a 7 country continent with 3 borders for 3 bonus.

That still is probably too hard to hold, though. I could increase the bonus by 1 for each, but that wouldn't necessarily make them easier to hold. Another thing I could do is to decrease the number of borders of each by 1. Harbor, and Market Place could each be completely surrounded by the canal, and have a one way border into the Temple Complex. I would justify that by naming the countries with the one way border something like "canoe builder" or "canal barge service." For the Smith, and Merchant Districts they would have only one border with the temple complex.

If anyone has any suggestions on how to rectify the border situation, please weigh in.

[cracker]

I know that the canal in the Resedential Area is spliting the rich from the poor, but you could move it to the left and use it as a barier between brown and blue. Or you could make a new canal on that border, but leave Copper Smith and Cananl's End still touching so that they don't come completely isolated.
Oh, here's an idea, you could give a bonus for holding the dock and ships. For example, if you hold the dock and all the ships, or one group of ships, then you could get an additional reinforcement or two.
Can't wait to see the next version.

[Banana Stomper]

it looks like the antarctica map being made. I say you two duke it out for better map of the two!

[Marvaddin]

Well, the different gameplay is welcome, but as Andy said, 10 armies is TOOOOO high. I think 6 is already a great bonus, or this will decide the team games from the start... Imagine the first triple... One player can, with this bonus, play for 3, maybe not only in escalating.

3 turns in a flat rate game:
A) Normal triple: 9 cards, maybe 30 armies, 27 armies from regular deployments.
B) Triple of 1 guy (his partners died so he could have the center): 3 cards (maybe 10 armies), 9 regular troops, and 30 armies from the bonus.
Total: A 47 x B 49.

Imagine in no cards, now. And with the low bonuses for other continents, its still worse. No other thing matter. So, no way, its tooooo high. with 4 countries and 3 borders, 6 would be the best bonus of all continents in all maps already, no need to 10.

Just my opinion, its constructive criticism, dont become angry.

[HighBorn]

i agree 10 is crazy i could go for a team game on it

[Marvaddin]

it looks like the antarctica map being made. I say you two duke it out for better map of the two!

Oh, and I agree with this, too.

[TuckerCase]

My favorite type of game is a 6 player without teams, and for that I think what I'm coming up with will be pretty fair even with a 10 army bonus. I see what you're saying though about team games. I'll probably have to lower it to an 8 army bonus. Not a 6 bonus though. I think that compromises some of what my map is about. Maybe it won't be ideal for team games, but then we have a lot of maps already that are, and anyway some people might like the rush.

[HighBorn]

Maybe it won't be ideal for team games, but then we have a lot of maps already that are, and anyway some people might like the rush.

i see blood on the horrizon....

[gavin_sidhu]

If ur playing freestyle with double turns allowed just a one turn stay on the centre could determine the game. Maybe you should make it slightly larger. 6 instead of 4 countries perhaps.

[TuckerCase]

So here's the updated version. It's a major improvement, I'd say. I decided to replace the ocean with something a little darker and more lively. I've also put some texture on the map that I think looks pretty cool. I fixed some, if not all, of the text. I faded all of the ships just a little to make them not stick out quite so much. In the end, I went against mixing pictures in with the countries. It might have been a good idea, but only if done very well. I did leave one pyramid in the center, because I think it looks ok, and gives the impression that Montezuma's Palace is the greatest country, or the objective.

As for the game play I expanded the canals quite a bit, which should make the Harbor, Market Place, Smith District, and the Merchant District all easy to hold. I also lowered the bonus for the Temple complex to 8. I also added two one way borders, as marked by the arrows. I renamed the two countries that the one way attacks can be launched from "Canoe Port," and "Canal Barge Service," which justifies why they can get across the canals. I did run into a bit of a problem with that, though, as for instance Canoe Port is across the canal from the Jeweler too. I'm not redrawing the borders though, that would be too much work. So here is the official reason why those attacks cannot take place, and listen closely:

Aztec legend says it is horrible luck to attack a Jeweler from across a canal. It's ancient prophecy, and the canoe pilots are so superstitious they go on strike if you try to make them. Yep.

So be honest, any suggestion you guys have, either the graphics, or the game play, I want to hear it.

[TuckerCase]

Hmm. . . I think I should rename one of the Spanish galleon's to the "El Tucker Case." It's got a certain ring to it.

[Marvaddin]

First thing: I still think 8 is too much, even for singles. Never saw people begginning with 3 countries in South America or Oceania before?

2nd, about those continents, why all those canals? Its to make the ships more useful? I believe it makes the map more alike to one labirinth... and trouble the idea of fight for the center... Yellow and purple continents are too easy to hold, so they both can take the center if no one else has a continent, so the game will be easy. But if both are taken for different players, each will probably hold one piece of it, but we will have no fights, since they need use the ships to reach the another base. Will someone waste armies to take the center, when the other can attack, and you can do nothing, his base is far away?

3rd, the ships of the other side seem completely useless. Those continents are not good at the start, so why use the ships? They cant help too much, the labirinth idea prevail. Imagine yourself with a set of 15 armies trying take 3 countries of an enemy with 5 cards... Well, maybe its really your idea, but Im pointing it, so all members can discuss if is a good idea.

4th, about the graphics, the ships now look like ghost ships, I hate it. And where are from those colours to the ships in the legend? See the lower legend... that "impassable" word is not much smaller than it should, too?

[TuckerCase]

The canals are to make the continents more easily held. I don't see how the Spanish ships are useless, since it's the only way the smith district can attack the Harbor. You use the word "labyrinth" negatively, but I don't think it inherently has to be so.

I think it's interesting that the players will be faced with the dilemma of committing their forces to making sure the temple complex isn't over run, or committing their forces to potentially profitable invasions of the enemy's home lands through the ships.

Can we at least agree that some strategies will have to be adapted for this specific map? It's always good to mix things up. A lot of confused fighting, and disorder is not a bad thing.

That's not to say I want the game to be unbalanced. I might consider increasing the army bonus to 4 for the Smith, and Merchant Districts.

I disagree about the ships, but concede that some of the text could be enhanced.

[cracker]

I think that the temple district's bonus shouldn't be dropped any more because the oneway borders make it much harder to hold. I like the idea of using the arrows to represent oneway borders, but how the arrows intersect with the words doesn't look very good. I can still read them just fine, I just don't like the overlap.
Can't wait to play it.

[rocksolid]

Not clear which way the one-way attacks are. Maybe use a more directional icon.

Not a fan of the new ocean, sorry. It makes it look like the battle is for the palace in The Never-Ending Story rather than Tenochtitlan.

I want to pipe in again in favour of the crazy high bonus for the temple, but I acknowledge this is from the perspective of someone who hates freestyle and avoids team games. I think the crazy high bonus would make this great for sequential singles games, even if one player gets three off the top. I've said elsewhere that I think the main concern with bonuses should be that it shouldn't make one continent so overvalued that the whole game is necessarily about that one continent - but here that's the point, which is what would make it unique. I do agree it would make for lunacy in team or double-turn freestyle games, and possibly even for singles sequential with less than 5 players, but, well, screw those guys. Maybe it would be a good idea to consider allowing the designing of maps for specific types of games? Ideally a map would be so versatile as to be playable in all styles, but if there's something you want to do with a map that would make it uniquely suited for team games and would make it suck for sequential singles - like chariot races with no cards, for example - I don't think that should stand in the way, especially since in this case, people can just choose not to play it freestyle or teams, but singles sequentials can't choose to play it if it doesn't exist on the site.

[spiesr]

I see the boats as pretty useless as you must take too many to attack across to another territory. Mayby you should take them out and reduce the canals some to make up for it?

[cracker]

I just noticed something in the smith district. Shouldn't boat builder be by the coast or swiched with warehouse so that it is in the harbor? Another suggestion to make the map sound more official is to change the name 'Boat Builder' to 'Shipwright' and 'Spear Maker' to 'Carpenter' or 'Barracks'.
Also in the merchant district, the r in 'Dye Trader' is on a boundry, so you can't really see it. A simular thing is happening to the e in 'Estate' in the Resedential Area. A few other overlaps that aren't as bad are the f, g, & s in 'Fishing Docks'; and the g in 'Granary'. Montezuma's palace is also going over the boundries.

[Marvaddin]

Maybe some "secret" passages to the palace would increase the fight for the center, and make the map more interesting... It would also make the continent 4 borders, not only 3, more difficult, even with the bonus.

Put the continent by continent analysis here, so we can have a better idea without much effort.

[TuckerCase]

One thing to keep in mind is that 1 border can be taken off for each land continent, except the Temple Complex, if the adjacent ship is taken.

Continent: Temple Complex
Number of bonus armies: 8
Number of borders: 3
Countries that can attack it: 6
Continents it borders: 5

Continent: Residential Area
Number of bonus armies: 5
Number of borders: 6
Countries that can attack it: 3
Continents it borders: 2

Continent: Merchant District
Number of bonus armies: 3
Number of borders: 3
Countries that can attack it: 3
Continents it borders: 2

Continent: Smith District
Number of bonus armies: 3
Number of borders: 3
Countries that can attack it: 3
Continents it borders: 2

Continent: Harbor
Number of bonus armies: 2
Number of borders: 2
Countries that can attack it: 1
Continents it borders: 1 (not including the one way border)

Continent: Market Place
Number of bonus armies: 2
Number of borders: 2
Countries that can attack it: 1 (not including the one way border)

Continent: Spanish Ships
Number of bonus armies: 1
Number of borders: 4
Countries that can attack it: 9
Continents it borders: 3

Continent: Aztec Ships
Number of bonus armies: 1
Number of borders: 4
Countries that can attack it: 8
Continents it borders: 5

I like your idea for the secret passages Marvaddin, I could call them underground passages. Maybe three total into the center country, one from the Smith, another from the Merchant, and then a third from the Residential for spice.

I'll try to work on improving the quality of the text, and I'm planning on trying out some new backgrounds for the water to see if I like anything better.

[TuckerCase]

Here's a new version. I liked the idea of underground passages, so I added three of them, marked by the shovel.

There's also a texture on the canals now, and I changed the water.

This is an update of the temple analysis of the previous post, if anyone finds it useful.

Continent: Temple Complex
Number of bonus armies: 8
Number of borders: 4
Countries that can attack it: 9
Continents it borders: 5


There are a few bonus changes that I'm considering making. This is just in consideration right now, I haven't made a desicion.

The first would be to increase the army bonuses for the Merchant District, and Smith District to 4 each. If asked, most players would say that australia, and south america are the two best continents to go for on the classic map. In other words, the smallest ones. If I add another bonus to my two medium continents, I think it would make them at least as powerful, or more even, than the two smaller ones are. Could be interesting.

The second would be increasing the bonus for the Residential Area to 6, but only if I do the first.

The third change I'm considering making would be reverting the Temple Complex bonus back to 10. I'd only do that if I did the first two, and maybe not even then. Now that I've added the three underground attack routes, the palace becomes even harder to hold, and it would be more so if I increase the above mentioned bonuses.