Now that I am unbanned, let's talk...[Andy, answer post #32]

[theherkman]

As many of the QQ members as well as some others know, I have been banned for the last week. I didn't expect to be unbanned until Thursday around this time... But I guess my bans were served consecutively. Oh well. I would firstly like to state that the purpose of this thread is not to flame/bait/troll, because KingA said I would get banned if I created this thread and flamed/baited/trolled. I received an email from Andy stating that I would receive a 1 week ban for telling a moderator (KingS) in a public forum that he was lying AND for misquoting a PM that really came from KingA. Below are the screenshots of my e-ticket for you all to see how this process works... Also, Andy posted in a thread here alleging that my e-ticket was being responded to. Check the screenshots. My e-ticket was ignored for most of my ban.

[Preditor]

And it's so quite around here lately...........

[Juan_Bottom]

The quiet sucks.

I did get your message Herk but I knew you'd be back before The Society would be ready to go live.

[jefjef]

I feel baited by this thread to flame but that would be wrong.

Since when are 10 day bans changed to 7. I'm thinking a program/key punch error has occurred and must be corrected immediately.

[theherkman]

Preditor, you are off-topic. Prepare to be banned.

Juan_Bottom, thanks. Sent you an email.

This post was made by jefjef who is currently on your ignore list. Display this post.

[Preditor]

Off topic? You said "let's talk"? You didn't specify a topic. Since no topic was specified, I would like to take this time to create a one.

I would like to talk about using creative energy for positive things.

Here's an example of wasted energy......

Let's say somebody is always complaining about EVERYTHING anyway they can. When I say everything I mean trivial shit nobody cares about. While doing this "the complainer(s)" have no regard for any of the other members of the site. See every time this happens the hole just keeps on getting deeper and pretty soon there isn't a ladder long enough to get out of said hole.

Now if they would take just a small amount of this energy and just shut the hell up. They would be a Conqueror in no time.

Do you have a example you would like to share herk?

Let's discuss........

[Electricksabers]

I don't understand why you think you were ignored, 2 different people answered you within a day and a half of the ticket?

[Phatscotty]

Did they send you spam for canadian pharmaceuticals?

[ViperOverLord]

I gave up posting in this forum b/c there is a two fold problem w/the system.

1. The system of 'justice' is warped and it gives mods entirely too much power to screw over members. The escalating ban system that they use is at the heart of that problem.

2. The mods/admin are inconsistent and beholden to none of us to do a proper job.

Given that this complaint speaks to the second issue that I pointed out, I'll give my relative thoughts.

First off, Herk I like you, but I can see how you have an immature streak so I think these types of problems would follow you. I'm not trying to judge you; I'm sure there are those that would say the same thing about me.

Herk - You seemed to have two issues there.

1. Some sort of original issue that you got banned for that Andy said he was 'leaning towards a misunderstanding.' I'm guessing that's why your ban was revoked or ended early. I notice that there was no admission of wrong doing though and there probably never will be (whether there was or not).

2. Your second issue is that they were not responding to Juan Bottoms issue even though they were publicly saying that they were.

I'll try to relate these issues to my experiences with admins/mods.

It's pretty good that you were able to get them to admit at least a misunderstanding that I presume nullified your ban if I'm reading that right. I'm guessing it may have been some sort of technical point that you were right about that they had to admit a 'misunderstanding.' Otherwise when it comes to subjective/arbitrary definitions of baiting/flaming/trolling I've never seen admin admit a wrong decision once something gets to a ban.

I know that this was the case with my second ban. I was given four links in which I was accused of baiting. I looked at all four of them. There was no baiting. I replied to issues of the conversation and I even took excessive profanities against me without returning fire. When I brought this up to the admin in my e-ticket; he could not say I was wrong yet he would not reverse the ban. At that point the admin WILL NOT REVERSE subjective judgment no matter how weak and inept it is.

Not only would he not tell me how I was wrong, he would tell me to talk to the global mods after my ban was over. WHAT!?!?!??! - The whole point of an e-ticket is to properly protest a ban. If admin can't support it with facts then overturn it. Don't patronize me and tell me to go and talk to the global mods after a ban is completed. That was bunk and admin knows it.

To add insult to injury another member pm'd me after that second ban was completed and talked trash and told me how I got owned on a thread. He talked about how another mod (a mod who I had no dealings with to that point) had talked trash about how I got owned too (in the thread I was banned for). So mods are going to ban you and then talk trash about how you got owned? Yea that's real professional and fair! (Sarcasm).

Besides learning of what happened, I did not take any action at that time against the mod. I had no faith in the system to do anything anyways.

Recently, I received a warning from that very same mod, warning me of a week ban if I baited any further. He referenced a post that was a week old and advised me to do something that I had already done anyway (which showed that he had not even bothered to do due diligence and read through the thread or else he might have saw the variety of flames against me and not even worried about pretending I was baiting).

I could tell that I was being condescended to and this mod was taking joy in talking down to me. He was not at all interested in analyzing the situation properly and dealing with me fairly. And when one is a regular poster and he/she knows that mods are going to twist your posts to harshly deal with you then that just is disgusting and a poster's desire to be a part of the community dwindles and it even causes undue stress to the poster.

I protested making an issue of a week old issue and it came back oh it was just an "unofficial warning." That's what happens when they realize they screwed up too. They don't admit wrong doing. They just try to appease you and hope that something goes away.

I also sent a pm to the mod that acted inappropriately, admin, and the head mod; demanding that the mod had acted grossly inappropriately, resign from his post. NONE OF THEM BOTHERED TO EVEN RESPOND. They are above reproach. When you have a group that is willing to allow such unethical behavior then you can never expect real fairness. Just know that. That's when I stopped posting. But I'm posting this now if it helps other posters to consider the reality of things or if admin/mods want to do the right thing now. But I won't hold my breath on that.

And you know what? When a mod issues a ban, talks trash about it and joys in holding another ban over your head. That's worse baiting/flaming than any poster here could ever do. That mod is getting his jollies being unfair and he knows it and admin is allowing him to be a part of the good ole boy network by not doing anything about it. Why should a poster want to post when this obvious double standard is in effect?

[thegreekdog]

There is a thread that somewhat addresses this created by BigBallinStalin. I would suggest reading through that. Some of the users have made some interesting suggestions within that thread.

I would also suggest that you all pool your collective thoughts and create a really well-thought-out suggestion for the Suggs forum to think about how to improve the disciplinary system here at CC. I think BigBallinStalin, denominator, and others have demonstrated that new ideas and improvements could be helpful.

[theherkman]

I gave up posting in this forum b/c there is a two fold problem w/the system.

1. The system of 'justice' is warped and it gives mods entirely too much power to screw over members. The escalating ban system that they use is at the heart of that problem.

2. The mods/admin are inconsistent and beholden to none of us to do a proper job.

Given that this complaint speaks to the second issue that I pointed out, I'll give my relative thoughts.

First off, Herk I like you, but I can see how you have an immature streak so I think these types of problems would follow you. I'm not trying to judge you; I'm sure there are those that would say the same thing about me.

Well thank you. You, good sir, are all too kind.

Herk - You seemed to have two issues there.

1. Some sort of original issue that you got banned for that Andy said he was 'leaning towards a misunderstanding.' I'm guessing that's why your ban was revoked or ended early. I notice that there was no admission of wrong doing though and there probably never will be (whether there was or not).

It was actually an accident that my ban was ended. I had a 72 hour ban and a 1 week ban sent to me within the hour... They must have been served consecutively. The original issue was I posted in C & A that KingS sent me a PM saying a certain report would be noted. I asked him in thread why it wasn't. He claimed he never sent the PM. I then got an email from KingA saying that it was he who sent the PM. I used copy/paste and deleted the PM from my inbox. It was a mistake, I explained this and apologized to KingA by PM. Then I got banned... Go figure. The official reasons were for "saying a mod was lying in a public forum" and "misquoting a PM". I asked the entire time for a link to where this is against the rules. Never got a link that shows you can't call someone a liar or accidentally misquote a PM...

2. Your second issue is that they were not responding to Juan Bottoms issue even though they were publicly saying that they were.

Yes, this irks me to no end. Andy had the balls to post that my e-ticket was "being responded to". When instead it was ignored for the better part of my ban!

I'll try to relate these issues to my experiences with admins/mods.

It's pretty good that you were able to get them to admit at least a misunderstanding that I presume nullified your ban if I'm reading that right. I'm guessing it may have been some sort of technical point that you were right about that they had to admit a 'misunderstanding.' Otherwise when it comes to subjective/arbitrary definitions of baiting/flaming/trolling I've never seen admin admit a wrong decision once something gets to a ban.

Yeah, I guess Andy thinks it was a misunderstand, then thinks it is just too bad... Cause I'm still banned...

I know that this was the case with my second ban. I was given four links in which I was accused of baiting. I looked at all four of them. There was no baiting. I replied to issues of the conversation and I even took excessive profanities against me without returning fire. When I brought this up to the admin in my e-ticket; he could not say I was wrong yet he would not reverse the ban. At that point the admin WILL NOT REVERSE subjective judgment no matter how weak and inept it is.

Not only would he not tell me how I was wrong, he would tell me to talk to the global mods after my ban was over. WHAT!?!?!??! - The whole point of an e-ticket is to properly protest a ban. If admin can't support it with facts then overturn it. Don't patronize me and tell me to go and talk to the global mods after a ban is completed. That was bunk and admin knows it.

To add insult to injury another member pm'd me after that second ban was completed and talked trash and told me how I got owned on a thread. He talked about how another mod (a mod who I had no dealings with to that point) had talked trash about how I got owned too (in the thread I was banned for). So mods are going to ban you and then talk trash about how you got owned? Yea that's real professional and fair! (Sarcasm).

Besides learning of what happened, I did not take any action at that time against the mod. I had no faith in the system to do anything anyways.

Recently, I received a warning from that very same mod, warning me of a week ban if I baited any further. He referenced a post that was a week old and advised me to do something that I had already done anyway (which showed that he had not even bothered to do due diligence and read through the thread or else he might have saw the variety of flames against me and not even worried about pretending I was baiting).

I really understand what you are saying here. Rdsrds2120 continues to send me PM after PM warning and threatening to ban me. Quotes posts made 2 weeks ago, for which another admin warned me about IN THE POST BELOW MINE! Rdsrds2120's response was, "Well I am warning you now." I finally added him to my PM filter to be deleted upon receipt.

I could tell that I was being condescended to and this mod was taking joy in talking down to me. He was not at all interested in analyzing the situation properly and dealing with me fairly. And when one is a regular poster and he/she knows that mods are going to twist your posts to harshly deal with you then that just is disgusting and a poster's desire to be a part of the community dwindles and it even causes undue stress to the poster.

I protested making an issue of a week old issue and it came back oh it was just an "unofficial warning." That's what happens when they realize they screwed up too. They don't admit wrong doing. They just try to appease you and hope that something goes away.

I also sent a pm to the mod that acted inappropriately, admin, and the head mod; demanding that the mod had acted grossly inappropriately, resign from his post. NONE OF THEM BOTHERED TO EVEN RESPOND. They are above reproach. When you have a group that is willing to allow such unethical behavior then you can never expect real fairness. Just know that. That's when I stopped posting. But I'm posting this now if it helps other posters to consider the reality of things or if admin/mods want to do the right thing now. But I won't hold my breath on that.

And you know what? When a mod issues a ban, talks trash about it and joys in holding another ban over your head. That's worse baiting/flaming than any poster here could ever do. That mod is getting his jollies being unfair and he knows it and admin is allowing him to be a part of the good ole boy network by not doing anything about it. Why should a poster want to post when this obvious double standard is in effect?

That pretty much sums everything up...

[ViperOverLord]

There is a thread that somewhat addresses this created by BigBallinStalin. I would suggest reading through that. Some of the users have made some interesting suggestions within that thread.

I would also suggest that you all pool your collective thoughts and create a really well-thought-out suggestion for the Suggs forum to think about how to improve the disciplinary system here at CC. I think BigBallinStalin, denominator, and others have demonstrated that new ideas and improvements could be helpful.

I filled out Insomnia Red's survey. I believe she was going to relay that input to admin and mods. As far as BBS's thread goes, I believe I read through the ideas but yea post the link and we can consider it further.

That regards changing the system dynamics, but there is still a huge issue though when a mod is caught glorying in another member's ban and then he's allowed to continue to be a mod and condescend to members. If he had any dignity, he'd resign or even at least apologize. But as it is, CC should still not tolerate that type of behavior from the mods. Basically the message has been sent that the mods are bulletproof and they can do what they want.

[theherkman]

Basically the message has been sent that the mods are bulletproof and they can do what they want.

Surely this isn't news to anyone anymore... Right?

[eddie2]

now ham not going to come to your defense herkman, but there is problems with the banning system that do need addressed.

now when a player is banned they should recieve a pm (not email) asking them to state there defense asking if they would like to appeal the decission. Also i had my last ban that brought some instances of the e ticket into wrong doing. my example was player a dealt with the case and banned me then with the e ticket player a responded to it. This goes against the whole routine of it because it does state another player will deal with the appeal. Also i feel that if a case is being appealed the player should get to stay for the amount of time it takes. look at it another way it takes them 1 sometimes 2 weeks to close a case but 10 hours sometimes less to review it. all i can say is that no way can they review a case(in my mind start from scratch and gather the info again in case anything was missed) in that short a time period.

[theherkman]

Eddie, only KingA and Andy can deal with Etickets... So if KingA ruled on the case you are SOL because Andy isn't going to respond to you.

[thegreekdog]

There is a thread that somewhat addresses this created by BigBallinStalin. I would suggest reading through that. Some of the users have made some interesting suggestions within that thread.

I would also suggest that you all pool your collective thoughts and create a really well-thought-out suggestion for the Suggs forum to think about how to improve the disciplinary system here at CC. I think BigBallinStalin, denominator, and others have demonstrated that new ideas and improvements could be helpful.

I filled out Insomnia Red's survey. I believe she was going to relay that input to admin and mods. As far as BBS's thread goes, I believe I read through the ideas but yea post the link and we can consider it further.

That regards changing the system dynamics, but there is still a huge issue though when a mod is caught glorying in another member's ban and then he's allowed to continue to be a mod and condescend to members. If he had any dignity, he'd resign or even at least apologize. But as it is, CC should still not tolerate that type of behavior from the mods. Basically the message has been sent that the mods are bulletproof and they can do what they want.

Here is the link to that thread - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=131164

[theherkman]

That's a dead thread, thanks though. What we need are mods who aren't vengeful teenagers. Perhaps that might help.

[ljex]

It's pretty good that you were able to get them to admit at least a misunderstanding that I presume nullified your ban if I'm reading that right. I'm guessing it may have been some sort of technical point that you were right about that they had to admit a 'misunderstanding.' Otherwise when it comes to subjective/arbitrary definitions of baiting/flaming/trolling I've never seen admin admit a wrong decision once something gets to a ban.

He was not released from his ban early...

To add insult to injury another member pm'd me after that second ban was completed and talked trash and told me how I got owned on a thread. He talked about how another mod (a mod who I had no dealings with to that point) had talked trash about how I got owned too (in the thread I was banned for). So mods are going to ban you and then talk trash about how you got owned? Yea that's real professional and fair! (Sarcasm). Besides learning of what happened, I did not take any action at that time against the mod. I had no faith in the system to do anything anyways.

Recently, I received a warning from that very same mod, warning me of a week ban if I baited any further. He referenced a post that was a week old and advised me to do something that I had already done anyway (which showed that he had not even bothered to do due diligence and read through the thread or else he might have saw the variety of flames against me and not even worried about pretending I was baiting).

I could tell that I was being condescended to and this mod was taking joy in talking down to me. He was not at all interested in analyzing the situation properly and dealing with me fairly. And when one is a regular poster and he/she knows that mods are going to twist your posts to harshly deal with you then that just is disgusting and a poster's desire to be a part of the community dwindles and it even causes undue stress to the poster.

I protested making an issue of a week old issue and it came back oh it was just an "unofficial warning." That's what happens when they realize they screwed up too. They don't admit wrong doing. They just try to appease you and hope that something goes away.

I also sent a pm to the mod that acted inappropriately, admin, and the head mod; demanding that the mod had acted grossly inappropriately, resign from his post. NONE OF THEM BOTHERED TO EVEN RESPOND. They are above reproach. When you have a group that is willing to allow such unethical behavior then you can never expect real fairness. Just know that. That's when I stopped posting. But I'm posting this now if it helps other posters to consider the reality of things or if admin/mods want to do the right thing now. But I won't hold my breath on that.

And you know what? When a mod issues a ban, talks trash about it and joys in holding another ban over your head. That's worse baiting/flaming than any poster here could ever do. That mod is getting his jollies being unfair and he knows it and admin is allowing him to be a part of the good ole boy network by not doing anything about it. Why should a poster want to post when this obvious double standard is in effect?

Seeing as this issue is with me I figure i should probably tell you my side of the story. (by paragraph)

1) I pm'd my friend from college saying to check out that thread because "you got owned" in that argument. Funny thing is I actually agreed with your side of the argument, you just didn't make good points and thus my comment about you getting owned. In retrospect I should have just said check out this thread and provided a link. Also i had nothing to do with that ban, at that time I was simply a volunteer so I could not give bans. Your ban was handled by one of the Global mods at that time. Lastly what does me saying you got owned in an argument have to do with moderator action? Last i checked losing an argument was not grounds for moderator action such as bans but hey what do i know.
2) I read that entire thread, in fact I even posted in it once. Also you were already informed about why it was a week old, as i am new to the global mod team clapper011 is training me. Because of that we had to take time discuss going back and forth what we thought about the issue. Also on the topic of why that was baiting, i already answered that in the pm conversation.
3) I don't receive any joy from "taking you down" don't know where that is even coming from as it is a bit unwarranted and unfounded with any evidence.
4) see # two.
5) What do you want me to respond with? You basically said i want this guy out, how can i respond to that in a way that will make you happy if i am not willing to resign from my position? Now assuming that is a no, which i did, why should i even bother to respond if nothing good can come from me responding?
6) As stated previously, I didn't ban you. In fact i had nothing to do with that ban. Also when did i take joy in holding another ban in your head? In fact I was hesitant to add your next level ban to the end of my warning issued to you and asked clapper011 if i should. Her response was that it was ultimately my choice but most of the time it was included, so i decided to go with the norm. Not sure i even need to say this, but i am not getting "my jollies by being unfair."

[ljex]

It was actually an accident that my ban was ended. I had a 72 hour ban and a 1 week ban sent to me within the hour... They must have been served consecutively. The original issue was I posted in C & A that KingS sent me a PM saying a certain report would be noted. I asked him in thread why it wasn't. He claimed he never sent the PM. I then got an email from KingA saying that it was he who sent the PM. I used copy/paste and deleted the PM from my inbox. It was a mistake, I explained this and apologized to KingA by PM. Then I got banned... Go figure. The official reasons were for "saying a mod was lying in a public forum" and "misquoting a PM". I asked the entire time for a link to where this is against the rules. Never got a link that shows you can't call someone a liar or accidentally misquote a PM...

Not a simple mistake to misquote someone, you have to go in and intentionally change the name in the quote code. Unless I'm missing something this is a deliberate act, and if i had to guess, that is why KingA treated it as such.

[theherkman]

It was actually an accident that my ban was ended. I had a 72 hour ban and a 1 week ban sent to me within the hour... They must have been served consecutively. The original issue was I posted in C & A that KingS sent me a PM saying a certain report would be noted. I asked him in thread why it wasn't. He claimed he never sent the PM. I then got an email from KingA saying that it was he who sent the PM. I used copy/paste and deleted the PM from my inbox. It was a mistake, I explained this and apologized to KingA by PM. Then I got banned... Go figure. The official reasons were for "saying a mod was lying in a public forum" and "misquoting a PM". I asked the entire time for a link to where this is against the rules. Never got a link that shows you can't call someone a liar or accidentally misquote a PM...

Not a simple mistake to misquote someone, you have to go in and intentionally change the name in the quote code. Unless I'm missing something this is a deliberate act, and if i had to guess, that is why KingA treated it as such.

Did you even read what I wrote?

[ljex]

It was actually an accident that my ban was ended. I had a 72 hour ban and a 1 week ban sent to me within the hour... They must have been served consecutively. The original issue was I posted in C & A that KingS sent me a PM saying a certain report would be noted. I asked him in thread why it wasn't. He claimed he never sent the PM. I then got an email from KingA saying that it was he who sent the PM. I used copy/paste and deleted the PM from my inbox. It was a mistake, I explained this and apologized to KingA by PM. Then I got banned... Go figure. The official reasons were for "saying a mod was lying in a public forum" and "misquoting a PM". I asked the entire time for a link to where this is against the rules. Never got a link that shows you can't call someone a liar or accidentally misquote a PM...

Not a simple mistake to misquote someone, you have to go in and intentionally change the name in the quote code. Unless I'm missing something this is a deliberate act, and if i had to guess, that is why KingA treated it as such.

Did you even read what I wrote?

if you used copy and paste, how was the name changed in the quote? Unless you do something different that me, i click quote in the little pm thing, then copy and paste that and post it where i want to. And yes i read what you wrote.

[theherkman]

I didn't click quote. Read the OP. As I told KingA, I was cleaning out my inbox, saw the PM which was titled Nietsche PM Abuse[KS], copied and pasted the text from the PM, deleted it, finished cleaning my inbox, then I went to the thread and pasted the quote. I added quote tags, and put KS in the quote tags. I didn't realize that it was KA who sent me the message. Simple mistake.

[ljex]

I didn't click quote. Read the OP. As I told KingA, I was cleaning out my inbox, saw the PM which was titled Nietsche PM Abuse[KS], copied and pasted the text from the PM, deleted it, finished cleaning my inbox, then I went to the thread and pasted the quote. I added quote tags, and put KS in the quote tags. I didn't realize that it was KA who sent me the message. Simple mistake.

Ok i will agree with you there it was a simple mistake now that you explain it like that, but at the time you are saying without a doubt that you received a pm and it was from person x, but you no longer have the pm or used this method to say who the pm was from...it is no longer a simple mistake.

[thegreekdog]

That's a dead thread, thanks though. What we need are mods who aren't vengeful teenagers. Perhaps that might help.

Vengeful teenagers? If that is your suggestion, perhaps you should make it in in the suggestions forum. I'm not sure what kind of traction it will get considering I'm not sure there actually are a lot of teenagers (vengeful or not) in the global moderator or discussion moderator crews.

[ljex]

That's a dead thread, thanks though. What we need are mods who aren't vengeful teenagers. Perhaps that might help.

Vengeful teenagers? If that is your suggestion, perhaps you should make it in in the suggestions forum. I'm not sure what kind of traction it will get considering I'm not sure there actually are a lot of teenagers (vengeful or not) in the global moderator or discussion moderator crews.

1/5 of Global mods are teenagers for anyone interested.