Matrix mafia Day 3 - no-one died? [Abandoned]

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Also, @ Comm, The whole "cult" mechanic makes it unwise for power roles to claim unless it is 100% necessary, we cannot assume there is any way to protect crucial programs. thus there are still plenty of pro and con reasons for a counterclaim to root out scum... that plus they are presumably always replacing their number doesn't make for a good trade

But shouldn't there be only 1 Cult member as of now? So if he indeed would be the only one, I'd gladly trade Oracle for Mr. Smith (actually, we wouldn't even lose the Oracle because we'd kill Mr. Smith). I agree that one should not claim unless necessary, but if Sax would be lying, he should counter-claim as Sax is about to go off the hook. If no one will counter, I'll just assume he's the Oracle.

hmmm, you're right, my bad I have a bit of a fever and haven't been thinking straight.
Unvote

[Commander9]

I'm still interested in hearing some of the Flow's thoughts and his confirmation, but he seems to be gone...

[VioIet]

We have a 34 page Day 1, so we may need a deadline soon.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Hey everybody sorry I've been inactive I was starting to fall behind in my classes. Anyways I'm mostly current with the developments, give or take a few minor details and I've just gotta say wtf to Sax. That's quite a clusterfuck you caused back there. Why would you claim unlynchable? That's just begging to get lynched, and it would be the townies clamoring for your head just on principle, not even scum, who could just sit back and laugh. So really you've given us almost nothing for tomorrow (at least regarding you, not Icon) I think I have to agree with Haggis (I think it was him) who was wondering if you were bad scum or bad town.

I have a few inklings on some scums, but nothing too concrete, just gut instinct, so I won't say anything just yet. I would prefer that they incriminate themselves a little more before I can actually say anything with any certainty.

At this point I'm wondering about the length of the day. Is there a deadline?? I can't remember. There isn't anything regarding that in aage's last VC. I'm going to keep my vote on xuereb for submarining (ha I know what a hypocrite I am), just because I think with everyone else's posts it would be more beneficial to get rid of someone who hasn't posted anything that'll come back to bite him on D2 or 3.

I know that sounds lame, but honestly this day is fucked and I don't think we'll get much from it. Our best info imo will come from Icon's lynch, because I'm of the persuasion that it was probably just townies on Sax's BW. Maybe 1 scum got in their just to avoid grouping, but....idk.

-Tails

[aage]

There was a deadline, but I removed it since there were suddenly 3 pages per day.

I'll put it back tho.

Deadline this coming wednesday

[Flow520]

Also, Flow, it would be helpful if you would indeed say whether you are Seraph?

Hah, I'm not going to role claim unless I am forced to. Though, I suspect seraph would be laying pretty low while the oracle was being attacked so that the scum among us would not be able to target/kill seraph and thus leave the oracle vulnerable. I was very loud in the defense of TheSaxlad and in strong support of TheSaxlad's claim of being the oracle. If I was seraph, this would be quite foolish of me, no?

[safariguy5]

Also, Flow, it would be helpful if you would indeed say whether you are Seraph?

Hah, I'm not going to role claim unless I am forced to. Though, I suspect seraph would be laying pretty low while the oracle was being attacked so that the scum among us would not be able to target/kill seraph and thus leave the oracle vulnerable. I was very loud in the defense of TheSaxlad and in strong support of TheSaxlad's claim of being the oracle. If I was seraph, this would be quite foolish of me, no?

Or, you could think that we'd think Seraph was laying low and not suspect that the supporter of Sax is Seraph. This is a WIFOM argument.

[edocsil]

Also, Flow, it would be helpful if you would indeed say whether you are Seraph?

Hah, I'm not going to role claim unless I am forced to. Though, I suspect seraph would be laying pretty low while the oracle was being attacked so that the scum among us would not be able to target/kill seraph and thus leave the oracle vulnerable. I was very loud in the defense of TheSaxlad and in strong support of TheSaxlad's claim of being the oracle. If I was seraph, this would be quite foolish of me, no?

Or, you could think that we'd think Seraph was laying low and not suspect that the supporter of Sax is Seraph. This is a WIFOM argument.

Yes, but there is little to be gain from this. Whatever the case is, flow will likely have an attempt on his life tonight and probably should have a doc on him as it its almost certain he is town.

[Commander9]

Hah, I'm not going to role claim unless I am forced to. Though, I suspect seraph would be laying pretty low while the oracle was being attacked so that the scum among us would not be able to target/kill seraph and thus leave the oracle vulnerable. I was very loud in the defense of TheSaxlad and in strong support of TheSaxlad's claim of being the oracle. If I was seraph, this would be quite foolish of me, no?

Makes sense. That's more than enough for me.

[Flow520]

Also, Flow, it would be helpful if you would indeed say whether you are Seraph?

Hah, I'm not going to role claim unless I am forced to. Though, I suspect seraph would be laying pretty low while the oracle was being attacked so that the scum among us would not be able to target/kill seraph and thus leave the oracle vulnerable. I was very loud in the defense of TheSaxlad and in strong support of TheSaxlad's claim of being the oracle. If I was seraph, this would be quite foolish of me, no?

Or, you could think that we'd think Seraph was laying low and not suspect that the supporter of Sax is Seraph. This is a WIFOM argument.

Yes, but there is little to be gain from this. Whatever the case is, flow will likely have an attempt on his life tonight and probably should have a doc on him as it its almost certain he is town.

Firstly, what is a WIFOM argument?

Secondly, I'm glad Edoc thinks now thinks I am "almost certain to be town". However, I think most people will agree that it's more a statement of the obvious than anything else. Moreover, trying to cover up now with fained support of my likely town alignment doesn't erase pages of Edoc going after me trying to frame me up as scum to be lynched.
Our deadline for lynch is fast approaching. I say at the very least we put more pressure on Edoc and try to force a claim.

[edocsil]

Also, Flow, it would be helpful if you would indeed say whether you are Seraph?

Hah, I'm not going to role claim unless I am forced to. Though, I suspect seraph would be laying pretty low while the oracle was being attacked so that the scum among us would not be able to target/kill seraph and thus leave the oracle vulnerable. I was very loud in the defense of TheSaxlad and in strong support of TheSaxlad's claim of being the oracle. If I was seraph, this would be quite foolish of me, no?

Or, you could think that we'd think Seraph was laying low and not suspect that the supporter of Sax is Seraph. This is a WIFOM argument.

Yes, but there is little to be gain from this. Whatever the case is, flow will likely have an attempt on his life tonight and probably should have a doc on him as it its almost certain he is town.

Firstly, what is a WIFOM argument?

Secondly, I'm glad Edoc thinks now thinks I am "almost certain to be town". However, I think most people will agree that it's more a statement of the obvious than anything else. Moreover, trying to cover up now with fained support of my likely town alignment doesn't erase pages of Edoc going after me trying to frame me up as scum to be lynched.
Our deadline for lynch is fast approaching. I say at the very least we put more pressure on Edoc and try to force a claim.

You seem to have a particular fetish with me that I do not understand. What I did at the time with you and sax was justified, I found a liar and I pursued the lead, as I should if I desired to hunt and hang scum. You are letting you personal opinions get in the way of your vote, you have to be analytical, and not hold a grudge for me attempting to get your friend lynched.

[Commander9]

You seem to have a particular fetish with me that I do not understand. What I did at the time with you and sax was justified, I found a liar and I pursued the lead, as I should if I desired to hunt and hang scum. You are letting you personal opinions get in the way of your vote, you have to be analytical, and not hold a grudge for me attempting to get your friend lynched.

But this also doesn't negate that you've been acting fishy through-out the game. This has been a pretty long day and there should have been a lot of good chances for you to contribute, yet that has barely happened. Normally, this wouldn't be sufficient, but the deadline is looming and I honestly don't think some pressure on you will hurt.

Vote Edoc.

[aage]

A WIFOM argument is an argument to deny scumminess based on scumminess. For example:

Mr. X: I think Mr. Z is town

Mr. X dies and turns out scum

Mr. Y: oh, he was defending Mr. Z, lets lynch Mr. Z too, he's prob his scumbuddy

Mr. Z: no... He WANTED you to think that.

The point of the argument is that you're trying to use reverse psychology to counter someone's argument.

Also, you could check out the Rules&terms thread.

[Flow520]

A WIFOM argument is an argument to deny scumminess based on scumminess. For example:

Mr. X: I think Mr. Z is town

Mr. X dies and turns out scum

Mr. Y: oh, he was defending Mr. Z, lets lynch Mr. Z too, he's prob his scumbuddy

Mr. Z: no... He WANTED you to think that.

The point of the argument is that you're trying to use reverse psychology to counter someone's argument.

Also, you could check out the Rules&terms thread.

Thanks aage. I understand now.

[00iCon]

I know that sounds lame, but honestly this day is fucked and I don't think we'll get much from it. Our best info imo will come from Icon's lynch, because I'm of the persuasion that it was probably just townies on Sax's BW. Maybe 1 scum got in their just to avoid grouping, but....idk.

-Tails

Check page 25.
Everyone should vote tails for skimming! not to mention submarining.

[safariguy5]

I know that sounds lame, but honestly this day is fucked and I don't think we'll get much from it. Our best info imo will come from Icon's lynch, because I'm of the persuasion that it was probably just townies on Sax's BW. Maybe 1 scum got in their just to avoid grouping, but....idk.

-Tails

Check page 25.
Everyone should vote tails for skimming! not to mention submarining.

We could, but frankly pressuring tails may not elicit a claim before deadline which would probably lead to a blind lynch.

You seem to have a particular fetish with me that I do not understand. What I did at the time with you and sax was justified, I found a liar and I pursued the lead, as I should if I desired to hunt and hang scum. You are letting you personal opinions get in the way of your vote, you have to be analytical, and not hold a grudge for me attempting to get your friend lynched.

But this also doesn't negate that you've been acting fishy through-out the game. This has been a pretty long day and there should have been a lot of good chances for you to contribute, yet that has barely happened. Normally, this wouldn't be sufficient, but the deadline is looming and I honestly don't think some pressure on you will hurt.

Vote Edoc.

I don't really understand the logic here Commander, you're saying edocsil hasn't been very active yet Flow is saying that edocsil has been actively pressuring Sax and Flow. He can't be both active and not contributing at the same time. Given the length of the day and the fact that we already technically had a lynch and probably forced claims of two town power roles, I actually am in favor of ending the day with a no lynch instead of hastily building a case on someone simply because there's a deadline. I think we've accomplished enough for the investigative roles to pick some targets and get some investigations.

vote no lynch

[edocsil]

Saf is right, any lynch we make at this point would be rushed. I checked to see if there were any submariners worth killing, and Xuereb came up as the only real submariner, he last posted 6 pages ago. IMO not worth a lynch, he is new.

[Commander9]

I don't really understand the logic here Commander, you're saying edocsil hasn't been very active yet Flow is saying that edocsil has been actively pressuring Sax and Flow. He can't be both active and not contributing at the same time. Given the length of the day and the fact that we already technically had a lynch and probably forced claims of two town power roles, I actually am in favor of ending the day with a no lynch instead of hastily building a case on someone simply because there's a deadline. I think we've accomplished enough for the investigative roles to pick some targets and get some investigations.

vote no lynch

Well, if Edoc will turn out to be scum, I'll know where to look next. There's a difference, even a huge difference between posting and contributing and posting and not contributing - Edoc did the latter.

As far as lynching goes, I'd rather lynch the scummiest person than go with no lynching at all. Edoc already fished out 2 town power roles and pretty much all of his actions point him to be no ally of town.

[edocsil]

I don't really understand the logic here Commander, you're saying edocsil hasn't been very active yet Flow is saying that edocsil has been actively pressuring Sax and Flow. He can't be both active and not contributing at the same time. Given the length of the day and the fact that we already technically had a lynch and probably forced claims of two town power roles, I actually am in favor of ending the day with a no lynch instead of hastily building a case on someone simply because there's a deadline. I think we've accomplished enough for the investigative roles to pick some targets and get some investigations.

vote no lynch

Well, if Edoc will turn out to be scum, I'll know where to look next. There's a difference, even a huge difference between posting and contributing and posting and not contributing - Edoc did the latter.

As far as lynching goes, I'd rather lynch the scummiest person than go with no lynching at all. Edoc already fished out 2 town power roles and pretty much all of his actions point him to be no ally of town.

I played both of those by the book, so what if they were town, sax lied and Icon was acting scummy. You say I fished out town and then say I did not contribute. Pick one they are mutually exclusive. I was hunting things that I thought were scummy quite aggressively. Even though I was wrong (what are the odds of a correct D1 Lynch anyways) I was useful. Many others seamed willing to let the game stagnate, and I was not one.

[Commander9]

I played both of those by the book, so what if they were town, sax lied and Icon was acting scummy. You say I fished out town and then say I did not contribute. Pick one they are mutually exclusive. I was hunting things that I thought were scummy quite aggressively. Even though I was wrong (what are the odds of a correct D1 Lynch anyways) I was useful. Many others seamed willing to let the game stagnate, and I was not one.

Yet again, there's a difference between posting and contributing. One can post, fish out roles and not contribute to town. I don't have to pick one.

As far as Sax goes, I can understand it, even though I wouldn't have done that due to the fact that no one else countered his Oracle's claim. While I don't like your play here, I can't say too much there.

As far as 00 goes, first you've started an extremely weak BW on him about editing and then continued putting pressure even though I wouldn't say he acted all that scummy and even though I specifically stated his was town. Then, after Sax, you just want to go to night and leave Agent Smith and possibly others to cause havoc to town. For this, Sir, and for other things, you have my vote. It's very rare that good players are lynched Day 1 as they usually talk themselves out of situation, but I hope this won't be one of them.

[edocsil]

I played both of those by the book, so what if they were town, sax lied and Icon was acting scummy. You say I fished out town and then say I did not contribute. Pick one they are mutually exclusive. I was hunting things that I thought were scummy quite aggressively. Even though I was wrong (what are the odds of a correct D1 Lynch anyways) I was useful. Many others seamed willing to let the game stagnate, and I was not one.

Yet again, there's a difference between posting and contributing. One can post, fish out roles and not contribute to town. I don't have to pick one.

As far as Sax goes, I can understand it, even though I wouldn't have done that due to the fact that no one else countered his Oracle's claim. While I don't like your play here, I can't say too much there.

As far as 00 goes, first you've started an extremely weak BW on him about editing and then continued putting pressure even though I wouldn't say he acted all that scummy and even though I specifically stated his was town. Then, after Sax, you just want to go to night and leave Agent Smith and possibly others to cause havoc to town. For this, Sir, and for other things, you have my vote. It's very rare that good players are lynched Day 1 as they usually talk themselves out of situation, but I hope this won't be one of them.

No, what I don't want to do is string up some idiot and have nothing to show for it. We would really have to do that now to get someone lynched in 70 something hours. I do not see it being profitable.

The Editing wagon was a poor choice, you are correct, but afterward there were other things said that I deemed to be scummy and I ended up revoting for him after backing down on the editing thing.

Last thing, how the hell did you know Icon was town unless you were Rama Kandra or Kamala, her parents and characters likely to minor to be included? The only other characters who would know her is possibly the Oracle or the Seraph. Several other characters met her, but did not know her well enough to know her identity.

[Commander9]

No, what I don't want to do is string up some idiot and have nothing to show for it. We would really have to do that now to get someone lynched in 70 something hours. I do not see it being profitable.

The Editing wagon was a poor choice, you are correct, but afterward there were other things said that I deemed to be scummy and I ended up revoting for him after backing down on the editing thing.

Last thing, how the hell did you know Icon was town unless you were Rama Kandra or Kamala, her parents and characters likely to minor to be included? The only other characters who would know her is possibly the Oracle or the Seraph. Several other characters met her, but did not know her well enough to know her identity.

I'm honestly not a fan of no lynches and while this is by no means a perfect lynch, I think it's the best we've got.

Here we go again... more fishing and skimming (look up my original statement).

[Mr. Squirrel]

While the case on icon was retarded newb bashing at best, the case on sax was legitimate. Flow suddenly jumping on edocsil was surprising especially after he defended flow, and currently I find that the most interesting to analyze.

Also, Flow, it would be helpful if you would indeed say whether you are Seraph?

Hah, I'm not going to role claim unless I am forced to. Though, I suspect seraph would be laying pretty low while the oracle was being attacked so that the scum among us would not be able to target/kill seraph and thus leave the oracle vulnerable. I was very loud in the defense of TheSaxlad and in strong support of TheSaxlad's claim of being the oracle. If I was seraph, this would be quite foolish of me, no?

Or, you could think that we'd think Seraph was laying low and not suspect that the supporter of Sax is Seraph. This is a WIFOM argument.

Yes, but there is little to be gain from this. Whatever the case is, flow will likely have an attempt on his life tonight and probably should have a doc on him as it its almost certain he is town.

Firstly, what is a WIFOM argument?

Secondly, I'm glad Edoc thinks now thinks I am "almost certain to be town". However, I think most people will agree that it's more a statement of the obvious than anything else. Moreover, trying to cover up now with fained support of my likely town alignment doesn't erase pages of Edoc going after me trying to frame me up as scum to be lynched.
Our deadline for lynch is fast approaching. I say at the very least we put more pressure on Edoc and try to force a claim.

COmmander first. He asks for a confirmation of the role on flow and after flow tells him off, he just lets it go. If you are going to try to force claims, at least stick to your forcing in my opinion.

Safari then jumps in with the WIFOM argument, but why? Everyone knows that WIFOM gets you no where (except those who don't know WIFOM) and it only detracts from the conversation to bring it up. Not a real scumtell, but just a worthless addition to the conversation.

Edoc was a very adamant voice against sax and flow during the day and then he defends flow now. It seems a little out of place to be honest. While I agree with what he said, it almost feels like buddying coming from him.

Flow rejects his help (which is confirmation of her towniness if you ask me) but then goes on a tirade against him. Seems to be over reacting a bit, especially with the "statement of the obvious" part. Flow, no one is ever confirmed town (except icon but thats a rare exception) and being snobby about it will not gain you the town's trust.

I don't know where I want the lynch to go. I'm too tired to figure it out right now. I'll post more tomorrow or something.

[edocsil]

No, what I don't want to do is string up some idiot and have nothing to show for it. We would really have to do that now to get someone lynched in 70 something hours. I do not see it being profitable.

The Editing wagon was a poor choice, you are correct, but afterward there were other things said that I deemed to be scummy and I ended up revoting for him after backing down on the editing thing.

Last thing, how the hell did you know Icon was town unless you were Rama Kandra or Kamala, her parents and characters likely to minor to be included? The only other characters who would know her is possibly the Oracle or the Seraph. Several other characters met her, but did not know her well enough to know her identity.

I'm honestly not a fan of no lynches and while this is by no means a perfect lynch, I think it's the best we've got.

Here we go again... more fishing and skimming (look up my original statement).

Keep it clean Commander. If you accuse me of something, at least let it be for what I have done. As a rule I do not skim, although your right, I have been fishing for roles, and for good reason too. This game will hit critical mass with the recruitment very quickly, by day 3 or 4 and the game must be ended before then. I have a good idea of the roles of many of the players here. With a good set of investigations I can hazard some fairly accurate guesses as to who the scum are tomorrow if coupled with an other day like this one.

Like a said, I am playing very aggressively because I do not believe we have the time to waste like we do in a regular game.

[VioIet]

Last thing, how the hell did you know Icon was town unless you were Rama Kandra or Kamala, her parents and characters likely to minor to be included? The only other characters who would know her is possibly the Oracle or the Seraph. Several other characters met her, but did not know her well enough to know her identity.

QFT. I agree. Just how did he know? That is why my vote has, is, and will be on commander.