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Re: Wisconsin Democrats Literally Run Away From Tough Decisi

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:35 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxKk3DSW6Sk

Tea Party activist locates fleeing Wisconsin congressmen in Illinois. (DUDE YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO CALL THE POLICE! )

By Nicole Bullock in New York
Published: February 17 2011 05:01 | Last updated: February 17 2011 05:01

Cash-strapped US states and cities face the prospect of downgrades after Fitch Ratings changed the way it analyses their burgeoning pension bills.

In a report published on Thursday, Fitch warns the new approach could lead to ā€œlimited negative rating actionā€, particularly for local governments with big wage bills. The changes to the way it assesses pension liabilities come amid growing concern over the scale of municipal debt problems and the effect on state and city finances of generous, unfunded public sector pension schemes that will run for many years. Sharp falls in equities and other risky assets during the financial crisis reduced the funding levels of nearly all these pension plans, increasing the pressure on states and local governments when they have even less cash because of dwindling tax revenues to make up the shortfall. Revenues have tumbled while spending has been rising.

ā€œThe key questions are whether states and local governments are funding their pensions, how much it is taking up of their general fund and concern about the crowding out of spending for other needs,ā€ said Laura Porter at Fitch.

The rating agency, which used data from 2009, said there was cause for near-term concern about ā€œa number ofā€ pension plans and pointed to the ā€œconsiderable pressure that these obligations will place on many government budgetsā€. The greatest risk would come at the local level since labour-related costs were a higher percentage of local government budgets, Fitch said.

In Miami, Florida, a quarter of the city’s operating budget pays for pensions. Among states, Illinois stands out for setting aside 12 per cent of its budget for its chronically underfunded pension.
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Re: Wisconsin Democrats Literally Run Away From Tough Decisi

Postby Woodruff on Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:56 am

patches70 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
patches70 wrote:1) The financial manager of Detroit Public Schools wants to close half of all city schools, leading to class sizes of up to 62 students.


This is just flat-out dumb. As in abysmally stupid. This would be a waste of EVERYONE'S time. It would be better to close ALL of the schools than to close half of them...yes, I am completely serious. Why? Because you'll save FAR more money and get EXACTLY AS MUCH EDUCATING DONE.

patches70 wrote:3) California Gov. Jerry Brown is requiring 48,000 state workers to turn in their government cell phones by June 1st.


This one actually makes a lot of sense to me. Who would have thought California could do such a thing?

patches70 wrote:7) The town of Prichard, Ala., recently stopped sending pension checks to retirees in violation of state law.


Another pretty abysmally dumb one here.

patches70 wrote:11) Camden, N.J., the second-most dangerous city in America, recently laid off half of its police force due to a huge budget shortfall.


I sheepishly point up to my response to #1 above (get the hell out of Camden while you still can!).

patches70 wrote:13) In Georgia, Clayton County eliminated its public bus system to save $8 million.


As a desperation measure, this one also makes sense to me.

patches70 wrote:16) State parks and historic sites are deteriorating due to widespread budget shortfalls.


I'm ok with this. I don't like it...but it makes sense.

patches70 wrote:18) Arizona is so desperate for money they have sold off the state capitol building, the supreme court and the legislative chambers.


Uh...what?


Why are you lecturing me? I didn't make those decisions, go tell it to the people who made em.

Oh, and your "Uh...what?", go look into it. Arizona sold their state capitol building, supreme court building and legislative building and now pay a lease. It works out cheaper for them somehow.

Regardless, you don't seem to understand the nature of the fiscal crisis that almost every single state is facing and how bad it is going to get very soon. There simple is no money. These states are billions of dollars in debt and can't pay. Everywhere where people have insisted on making government in charge of everything are finding out all about economic reality.

But, go ahead and bitch at me about it if it makes you feel better. I am just showing what is going on.


I wasn't lecturing you or bitching at you...if anything, I was lecturing/bitching at the points you listed as an entity unto themselves. I was simply commenting on those particular items you listed. I well realized (as did anyone reading it) that those weren't your points...why is it that you didn't realize that my comments were directed at the points and not at you? You seem very defensive for no reason at all.

As to the fiscal crisis, I very much understand it. But since I disagree with you on some of these issues, I must simply be ignorant, right?
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Re: Wisconsin Democrats Literally Run Away From Tough Decisi

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:36 am

I would urge all of you to not make this a partisan issue, because it's really not. Political pundits on both sides are trying to make this an issue about unions, but it's really not. I heard conservatives say "Yeah, unions suck, teachers are lazy, etc." I heard liberals say, "Republicans are trying to destroy all the unions. They're coming after the auto workers next." This measure is neither of those things. Like patches indicated, this is about fiscal responsibility.

Let's go back and think about what the governor of Wisconsin is attempting to do. Right now, state employees pay $0 into their pensions and pay $0 for health insurance. The governor of Wisconsin is asking state employees to pay some amount into their pensions and pay some amount into their health insurance. The governor of Wisconsin is not asking the state employees to pay 100% of their pensions or 100% of their health insurance. The governor of Wisconsin is trying to get the state employees to do this so that the government of Wisconsin doesn't have to lay off hundreds or thousands of state workers. He doesn't want Wisconsin to turn into a Camden. He doesn't want Wisconsin to have hundred or thousands of additional people on unemployment compensation.

This measure is entirely reasonable. It's not an assult on the unions (whether you're conservative or liberal, it's simply not).

Should Wisconsin taxes be increased? Probably, yes. But before asking for taxes to be increased, perhaps we need to figure out what the tax situation in Wisconsin is right now.
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Re: Wisconsin Democrats Literally Run Away From Tough Decisi

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:56 am

I don't think I really have a particular opinion on the issue---except the unfortunate quality that some of the protesters and counter-protesters were comparing their protests to the popular protests going on throughout the SWANA region. Thumbs down for that comparison.


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Re: Wisconsin Democrats Literally Run Away From Tough Decisi

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:07 am

AndyDufresne wrote:I don't think I really have a particular opinion on the issue---except the unfortunate quality that some of the protesters and counter-protesters were comparing their protests to the popular protests going on throughout the SWANA region. Thumbs down for that comparison.


--Andy


Did you know they are also carrying around posters comparing the governor to Hitler and the Republicans to Nazis? I'm looking forward to pimpdave's next thread where he talks about that.
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Re: Wisconsin Democrats Literally Run Away From Tough Decisi

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:10 am

thegreekdog wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:I don't think I really have a particular opinion on the issue---except the unfortunate quality that some of the protesters and counter-protesters were comparing their protests to the popular protests going on throughout the SWANA region. Thumbs down for that comparison.


--Andy


Did you know they are also carrying around posters comparing the governor to Hitler and the Republicans to Nazis? I'm looking forward to pimpdave's next thread where he talks about that.

That is unfortunate too, but the comparisons to the popular protests in the SWANA region are more disconcerting to me, maybe because of the real risks to those protesters and what is at stake in those protests, vs the risk and what is at stake in Wisconsin.


--Andy
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Re: Wisconsin Democrats Literally Run Away From Tough Decisi

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:11 am

AndyDufresne wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:I don't think I really have a particular opinion on the issue---except the unfortunate quality that some of the protesters and counter-protesters were comparing their protests to the popular protests going on throughout the SWANA region. Thumbs down for that comparison.


--Andy


Did you know they are also carrying around posters comparing the governor to Hitler and the Republicans to Nazis? I'm looking forward to pimpdave's next thread where he talks about that.

That is unfortunate too, but the comparisons to the popular protests in the SWANA region are more disconcerting to me, maybe because of the real risks to those protesters and what is at stake in those protests, vs the risk and what is at stake in Wisconsin.


--Andy


These protests (in Wisconsin) are more akin to the protests in Greece.
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Re: Wisconsin Democrats Literally Run Away From Tough Decisi

Postby patches70 on Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:19 am

thegreekdog wrote:
These protests (in Wisconsin) are more akin to the protests in Greece.


This.

Greece has come to Wisconsin, soon to come to a city near you!


I can understand the protesters angst. However, reality is coming. There just isn't any money. Someone is going to get shafted, one way or another. Now it is at a point of deciding who is going to get shafted.

The Wisconsin Gov. is just trying to save people's jobs.
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Re: Wisconsin Democrats Literally Run Away From Tough Decisi

Postby karel on Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:45 pm

if insurance company's,and hospitals would drop the prices to what people can afford,but to make people pay a extra 200 a month,i would protest to,with a baseball bat in hand
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Re: Wisconsin Democrats Literally Run Away From Tough Decisi

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:19 pm

karel wrote:if insurance company's,and hospitals would drop the prices to what people can afford,but to make people pay a extra 200 a month,i would protest to,with a baseball bat in hand


Okay. I don't necessarily disagree with this premise. However, what if you're a citizen in Wisconsin and you don't work for the government. Oh, I know... let's say you're a private school teacher.

Public school teachers probably make more money than you do (just in salary), but let's pretend you make the same amount of money... $50,000... a year.

Now, you also have to pay for your health insurance and you make contributions to your 401K... so instead of making $50,000, you're making $40,000. The public school teacher (a state employee) doesn't actually pay for his or her health insurance or retirement... so that person is still making $50,000.

To make matters even worse, however, you, the private school teacher making (after health insurance and 401K) $40,000 has to kick let's say 10% of your salary to the Wisconsin state government in taxes. And those taxes go to, you guessed it, paying for the health insurance and retirement benefits of the state employee.

So, not only do you have worse benefits than the state employee, you're paying for his or her benefits!

Now, is that something you would protest with a baseball bat in hand? Just a caveat - if you do protest this with a baseball bat in hand, be prepared to be labelled a racist, hate-monger, and corporatist because you'll be identified with the Tea Party. You'll soon even have your very own pimpdave Tea Party thread!
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Re: Wisconsin Democrats Literally Run Away From Tough Decisi

Postby Woodruff on Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:31 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Now, is that something you would protest with a baseball bat in hand? Just a caveat - if you do protest this with a baseball bat in hand, be prepared to be labelled a racist, hate-monger, and corporatist because you'll be identified with the Tea Party. You'll soon even have your very own pimpdave Tea Party thread!


So you ADMIT that the Tea Partiers protest with baseball bats!

(Tee hee.)
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Re: Wisconsin Democrats Literally Run Away From Tough Decisi

Postby Night Strike on Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:53 pm

So, the things we have learned about these "protesters" in Wisconsin:

1) On Thursday, there were numerous signs comparing the Republicans and the governor to tyrants and Hitler, among other violent phrases. So much for toning down the rhetoric that I bet many of these people felt should apply to the Tea Party.

2) "Everyone must make sacrifices" are actually code words for raising taxes on the rich. It doesn't actually apply to the President's supporters such as unions. Therefore, the President doesn't actually believe what he says.

3) These protests are NOT grassroots. Many different unions have now joined the teachers in their protests, but the protests themselves are organized by the President and DNC through Organizing for America, the organization used for Obama's 2008 presidential campaign. Further proof that Obama doesn't actually believe it people making fiscal sacrifices.

4) Many of these protesters are thugs. They're protesting at people's homes, threatening the families of the Republican senators and governor. Intimidating a person's family is what mobsters do, not political opponents.
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Re: Wisconsin Democrats Literally Run Away From Tough Decisi

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:39 pm

From a Washington Post article:

Under [Wisconsin Governor Walker's] plan, most public workers - excluding police, firefighters and state troopers - would have to pay half of their pension costs and at least 12 percent of their health care costs.


Just so you know, I pay 100% of my "pension" costs and 50% of my health care costs.

Here's the article. I wasn't going to post the link because this is NOT (repeat NOT) a partisan issue, despite how the Republicans want it to be (see Nightstrike's post above) and Democrats want it to be (see the article). This is simply a budgetary issue.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 05494.html

EDIT - I will say that this article should be required reading of everyone in the United States. It shows from whom politicians get their money and show exactly who is in charge in the United States (unions and big companies).
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Re: Wisconsin Democrats Literally Run Away From Tough Decisi

Postby muy_thaiguy on Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:56 pm

Just glad that Wyoming is being fiscally responsible. Seriously, the State Legislature is putting money into the bank for a "rainy day," so to speak. Sure we have Democrats, but from everything I've seen and read about most of the other Democrats in politics, and the ones here are not exactly on the same track. Our last governor who was a Democrat, would have been mistaken for a Republican, Libertarian, or Tea Party member (though, a bit more rational than many in the national light) in almost any other state..
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Tea Party to WI Public Employees: "You Are Hamas!"

Postby pimpdave on Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:58 pm

Seton Motley likes to interrupt after demanding he have the floor and attempts to incite violence against public employees.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0wDG7lTPJQ
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Re: Wisconsin Democrats Literally Run Away From Tough Decisi

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:00 pm

Hey dave - we already have a Wisconsin thread. Thanks.
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Re: Wisconsin Democrats Literally Run Away From Tough Decisi

Postby pimpdave on Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:02 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Hey dave - we already have a Wisconsin thread. Thanks.


This is a completely different topic.
Last edited by pimpdave on Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wisconsin Democrats Literally Run Away From Tough Decisi

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:02 pm

pimpdave wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Hey dave - we already have a Wisconsin thread. Thanks.


This is a completely different topic.


No, actually, it's not.
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Re: Tea Party to WI Public Employees: "You Are Hamas!"

Postby pimpdave on Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:04 pm

You didn't even watch the video and I'm guessing only merged it because WI was in the title... weak.
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Re: Tea Party to WI Public Employees: "You Are Hamas!"

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:11 pm

pimpdave wrote:You didn't even watch the video and I'm guessing only merged it because WI was in the title... weak.


Good guess (considering that you posted at 2:58 PM and I posted at 3:00 PM). But I have now watched the video and this is where it belongs.
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Re: Wisconsin Democrats Literally Run Away From Tough Decisi

Postby patches70 on Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:56 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 05494.html

EDIT - I will say that this article should be required reading of everyone in the United States. It shows from whom politicians get their money and show exactly who is in charge in the United States (unions and big companies).


Yeah, it was on this past Monday that Obama said that we have to "live within our means" and then when the Wisconsin Gov is actually trying to do that, Obama comes out in favor of the unions. Since the unions are his bread and butter it is not surprising, but is yet another example of politicians giving lip service but not intending at all to do as they preach.
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Re: Wisconsin Democrats Literally Run Away From Tough Decisi

Postby john9blue on Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:57 pm

I didn't go to class on Thursday... not because of protest, just because I'm lazy as shit.

In all seriousness though, I don't have an opinion on this because I've heard a lot of things from a lot of people and I'm not sure what to think. I will try to head down to the Capitol this weekend though.
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Re: Wisconsin Democrats Literally Run Away From Tough Decisi

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:59 pm

john9blue wrote:I didn't go to class on Thursday... not because of protest, just because I'm lazy as shit.

In all seriousness though, I don't have an opinion on this because I've heard a lot of things from a lot of people and I'm not sure what to think. I will try to head down to the Capitol this weekend though.


Can you do me a big favor? If you run into any of the protestors, can you ask them how much they get paid a year?
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Re: Wisconsin Democrats Literally Run Away From Tough Decisi

Postby patsfan12 on Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:01 pm

Silly democrats. lol
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Re: Wisconsin Democrats Literally Run Away From Tough Decisi

Postby Juan_Bottom on Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:15 pm

I side with the unions. I always side with the people.
It's our right to collectively bargain and it's our right to strike. Trying to stop that is... communist? Local news said they are protesting the provisions of the bill that will take away their right to collective representation on several issues.
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