Texas executed an innocent man?

[Symmetry]

An opinion on the Cameron Todd Willingham case looks like it might actually happen soon in spite of Rick Perry's obstructions.

It's pretty clear by now that the evidence was a mess, that there was no proof of arson, and that Perry and the review board either didn't look at the evidence given them, or they ignored it.

Wiki here
New Yorker Article (LONG!) here

[bedub1]

Capital punishment has been used in the U.S. state of Texas and its predecessor entities since 1819. Since that time as of 15 February 2011 (2011 -02-15), 1,216 individuals (all but six of whom have been male) have been executed.

Texas has executed (all via lethal injection) more inmates than any other state

Texas has the second-largest population of any state, trailing only California. However, while California's death row is larger than Texas'

I’m from Texas. In Texas we have the death penalty and we USE IT! That’s right… if you come to Texas and kill somebody, we kill you back. That’s our policy.
They’re trying to push a bill right now in the Texas legislature that’ll speed up the process of execution in heinous crimes where there are more than three credible eye witnesses. If more than three people saw you do what you did, you don’t sit on death row for fifteen years, you go straight to the front of the line.
Other states are trying to abolish the death penalty. My state is putting in an express lane.

[Symmetry]

This is the subject that disillusioned me about those who support the death penalty. Last time I posted this case, the arguments were that it didn't matter if Perry was involved in, and covering up the execution of an innocent man as long as there were financial benefits to the citizens of the state. Either that or they flatly denied any of the expert evidence.

Depressing stuff.

[Metsfanmax]

Something about the idea of polling a crowd about whether a man will be killed or not is incredibly disgusting.

[Symmetry]

Something about the idea of polling a crowd about whether a man will be killed or not is incredibly disgusting.

He's already dead.

[Metsfanmax]

Something about the idea of polling a crowd about whether a man will be killed or not is incredibly disgusting.

He's already dead.

Oh, sorry, looks I should lrn2read.

[Symmetry]

Something about the idea of polling a crowd about whether a man will be killed or not is incredibly disgusting.

He's already dead.

Oh, sorry, looks I should lrn2read.

No worries- please look up some of the links though. It's tough reading, you'll be just as angry, but have better ground for being angry.

[HapSmo19]

"Death and Texas" woulda been a better thread title.

[bedub1]

"Death and Texas" woulda been a better thread title.

Death and Taxes?

As you can see from my response I took the title to heart and ignored the post. The actual title should be something like "Texas improperly executes Cameron Todd Willingham" or something....

[PLAYER57832]

Texas is notorious for being too quick to convict, for ignoring and utterly screwing up cases and for refusing to correct errors.

However, the problems go well beyond the Death penalty and well beyond just Texas. NPR just did a series of stories on how deaths are investigated within the US. In many areas coroners are elected or appointed as a kind of political payment. Few if any standards exist. This means whether a death is even called a murder or suicide or accident varies HIGHLY depending upon the jurisdiction.

[Symmetry]

"Death and Texas" woulda been a better thread title.

Death and Taxes?

As you can see from my response I took the title to heart and ignored the post. The actual title should be something like "Texas improperly executes Cameron Todd Willingham" or something....

I've edited the title to try and strike a balance.

Sym

[BigBallinStalin]

Get yours guns! He's got killing coming to him.

[bedub1]

"Death and Texas" woulda been a better thread title.

Death and Taxes?

As you can see from my response I took the title to heart and ignored the post. The actual title should be something like "Texas improperly executes Cameron Todd Willingham" or something....

I've edited the title to try and strike a balance.

Sym

props to the good work. If only we could get somebody else to have his/her Subject lines match the facts of the post....

[Woodruff]

"Death and Texas" woulda been a better thread title.

Yes - good call.

[spurgistan]

Not to get too far adrift in this thread, but - a man was killed by the state government of Texas for a crime, in which not only is there considerable doubt he committed said crime, there is pretty definitive evidence that he didn't. In addition, as the Wiki points out in the first few lines, the Rick Perry administration took an active role in interfering with the ability of the investigative commission to do its job. A few of my law-school friends have been talking about this one for a while, the way they see it this could have some dire consequences for capital punishment (they were not sad.)

[PLAYER57832]

A few of my law-school friends have been talking about this one for a while, the way they see it this could have some dire consequences for capital punishment (they were not sad.)

This is actually old news, and one reason a lot of previous proponents of the death penalty are now opposed. I mean, I don't think many people would have dropped a tear at Jeffrey Dommer getting the jolt, but the truth is those guys aren't the ones who get it, far worse criminals get far less penalty.

For my part, I just think the entire prison system needs reform. Why lock people up and turn them out worse than they went in?

[Symmetry]

Not to get too far adrift in this thread, but - a man was killed by the state government of Texas for a crime, in which not only is there considerable doubt he committed said crime, there is pretty definitive evidence that he didn't. In addition, as the Wiki points out in the first few lines, the Rick Perry administration took an active role in interfering with the ability of the investigative commission to do its job. A few of my law-school friends have been talking about this one for a while, the way they see it this could have some dire consequences for capital punishment (they were not sad.)

Not adrift at all- I think this is pretty key, and you make good points. An important part of the case for the death penalty is that it doesn't make mistakes, or doesn't anymore. It's certainly a case that gives ammo to people like myself who would like to see the death penalty abolished- I make no secret of that, but I wish it would make advocates of the death penalty a bit more uncomfortable than they have been.

Still, yes, this needs to be investigated at a high level, and those investigations have been blocked by Mr Perry.

[targetman377]

i agree with the death penalty and we should not be so quick to judge if he is innocent or not until you have seen the files yourselves both the citations are of second hand accounts. with clear biased. saying that nothing humans do is perfect we must accept that. there must have been enough proof to send him to death even if now it looks like they were completely wrong.

[Symmetry]

i agree with the death penalty and we should not be so quick to judge if he is innocent or not until you have seen the files yourselves both the citations are of second hand accounts. with clear biased. saying that nothing humans do is perfect we must accept that. there must have been enough proof to send him to death even if now it looks like they were completely wrong.

Part of the issue is that evidence exonerating him was sent to Perry and the review board. Either they ignored it, or looked at it and dismissed it. Sorry, but that was wrong. The review of that process is now being interfered with, and that is also deeply wrong.

[targetman377]

i agree with the death penalty and we should not be so quick to judge if he is innocent or not until you have seen the files yourselves both the citations are of second hand accounts. with clear biased. saying that nothing humans do is perfect we must accept that. there must have been enough proof to send him to death even if now it looks like they were completely wrong.

Part of the issue is that evidence exonerating him was sent to Perry and the review board. Either they ignored it, or looked at it and dismissed it. Sorry, but that was wrong. The review of that process is now being interfered with, and that is also deeply wrong.

that is not a reason we should not have the death penalty. that shows people not doing there job two completely different things.

[Symmetry]

i agree with the death penalty and we should not be so quick to judge if he is innocent or not until you have seen the files yourselves both the citations are of second hand accounts. with clear biased. saying that nothing humans do is perfect we must accept that. there must have been enough proof to send him to death even if now it looks like they were completely wrong.

Part of the issue is that evidence exonerating him was sent to Perry and the review board. Either they ignored it, or looked at it and dismissed it. Sorry, but that was wrong. The review of that process is now being interfered with, and that is also deeply wrong.

that is not a reason we should not have the death penalty. that shows people not doing there job two completely different things.

I think you have a strong point, but then I've seen the reliability of death penalty judgments brought up on either side as a case for or against the penalty. The potential incompetence of the process is a big part of why I, and other anti-death penalty advocates, argue that life sentences are better. Sure, they can still be wrong, but they can be at least partially reversible.

[spurgistan]

i agree with the death penalty and we should not be so quick to judge if he is innocent or not until you have seen the files yourselves both the citations are of second hand accounts. with clear biased. saying that nothing humans do is perfect we must accept that. there must have been enough proof to send him to death even if now it looks like they were completely wrong.

The question isn't whether he's innocent or not. You're kinda right, for all I know he's guilty as sin. But that's irrelevant. We killed him. Are you sure he was guilty without a reasonable doubt? That is the only question that matters. And from where I'm sitting, the answer is a resounding NO.

Part of the issue is that evidence exonerating him was sent to Perry and the review board. Either they ignored it, or looked at it and dismissed it. Sorry, but that was wrong. The review of that process is now being interfered with, and that is also deeply wrong.

that is not a reason we should not have the death penalty. that shows people not doing there job two completely different things.

So, the system isn't perfect, and yet we go on killing people. Hmm. Additionally, if the state of Texas, which executes more people than 90% of the world's countries, can have a mistake this egregious, at the very least some very real changes need to happen.

[khazalid]

Something about the idea of polling a crowd about whether a man will be killed or not is incredibly disgusting.

Democracy: It's enough to make you sick

[Symmetry]

Something about the idea of polling a crowd about whether a man will be killed or not is incredibly disgusting.

Democracy: It's enough to make you sick

Metsfan misread the lead. It happens to all of us. Any thoughts on the topic?

[Woodruff]

i agree with the death penalty and we should not be so quick to judge if he is innocent or not until you have seen the files yourselves both the citations are of second hand accounts. with clear biased. saying that nothing humans do is perfect we must accept that. there must have been enough proof to send him to death even if now it looks like they were completely wrong.

Part of the issue is that evidence exonerating him was sent to Perry and the review board. Either they ignored it, or looked at it and dismissed it. Sorry, but that was wrong. The review of that process is now being interfered with, and that is also deeply wrong.

that is not a reason we should not have the death penalty. that shows people not doing there job two completely different things.

No...the fact that these review boards are not doing there job ABSOLUTELY IS a VERY VALID reason why we should not have the death penalty. If we're talking about a system in which someone is put to death, that system better be damn sure foolproof.